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Tune down superspeed durations or potency


Riba.3271

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Yep, the speed is just too much. Same applies to speed runes.

If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.

Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.

Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.

it is just boring.

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@Jski.6180 said:It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Guess who this will hurt the most?

Hint: its not the zerg.

Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

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@Threather.9354 said:No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tagsThe problem with this thread is the same as the last time you made these arguments: The above citation is simply not true.

I think your problems stem from playing at smaller pickup scale with a more loosely composed squad and less experienced group members (and possibly facing many low- to midtier guild groups that are effective against that with just stack and roll).

If you look at the larger pickup groups (50, 50+) on servers with more seasoned populations or guilds that take on more challenging content you will see that almost all of them are first and foremost ranged. The damage nerfs from a year ago have achieved a pretty balanced flex-damage type of tactic at large scale where groups generally do a couple of range bombs and then commit to more risky pushes. That is a good sign of a decent enough balance.

Writing this I literally just came off a reset-night squad that had about 65v65 content, with ranged off-squads and towards the end I personally played a flanking approach alone without any support (including no superspeed) and did just fine. Most guild groups I play with also operate a two-support / three-ranged norm. Some of the damage classes are running flex-builds with range-melee weapon swaps but they are predominantly ranged and there are no pure melee builds whatsoever while there still are purely ranged builds. With those groups we also obliterate novice stack-and-roll groups with ease because we know how to coordinate damage and rip boons as well as larger pickup groups even if they have enough superspeed to skate above control conditions.

Improving the value of cripple and chill would be alot more boring than what we see right now, including making the boring 40s-cd massive rip-bombs even stronger, and would just make ranged damage even more dominant than it is.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other?

No, I don't care for 40% guardian parties.

Doesnt have to be guardians, can be scrappers and revenants as stab 2 instead

Doesn't matter. Point is rose colored glasses.

Nah, superspeed is obviously an issue. Lets say skill radiuses and objectives were designed to be certain amount with certain amount of movement speed and the people would take this much time to walk over them. Then they practically double the speed of everyone by giving superspeed that also makes them immune to cripples and chills. Obviously there is design flaw there. Small amount of superspeed like during HoT such as Revenant Elite fact and Tempest shout were fine because they were reactionary and on long cooldown but if the upkeep goes above 50%, you need to tune down characteristics of the buff.

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@Threather.9354 said:

@"Zikory.6871" said:Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

Why do people always resort to name calling when people disagree with them?

If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

Nice Gatekeeping. Plenty of people play weaver with success since it still one of the highest damage dealers in large fights. Both CC and leading targets improve damage. I don't agree with this reason since "coordination" will work.

Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.Roaming maybe? Anyone running zeph is griefing your group. A bunch of worthless stats for ~1s when scrapper has 5 super speed skills. Or tempest, a whole rune set for 1s ss on the one skill that give ss... Again, I don't agree with this reason.

Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.I don't know what to say to this. The multiplayer game doesn't feel like a multiplayer game? To you maybe. Running sub 25 plenty of classes have overlap and coordinate boons and skills. Because you choice not to doesn't mean plenty of groups don't...

Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.IMPOSSIBLE!!! Because timing SS with openings (coordinating with your TeAm) makes flanking "impossible". If both groups have SS, how can ranged groups not kite? Doesn't work for them or just not as good at coordinating?

it is just boring.Solid reason for nerfs. This guys bored...

I don't disagree that Super speed and Boon duration should be evaluated along with Healing, damage, cleanse ect. But your reasons specifically sound like l2p issues rather than game breaking...

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less superspeed fixes nothing. if the herald and scrapper can give us less speed boosts, size counts even more and the darned roamers on their naturally far2fast chars with the billions of ports and leaps can gank even more easy.

i'll repeat myself once more, stop the nerfs. it's not getting any better with them. nerf glasscannonbuilds, mobility of selfish sets if anything. less fast and highdps pew pew... that'd change ganking, maybe.

or just revert all dmg nerfs... so zergset have better cards against the glassy roamers. with the horrific aim that rev hammer skills by now got (thanks anet), it'd be great if every single one would actually do dmg. even direct hammerhits on thieves don't strip them 1/3 of their light armor health, what a joke. even hammer 11111ing does more than pressing the freaking skill buttons...

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Jski.6180 said:It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Guess who this will hurt the most?

Hint: its not the zerg.

Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.

From wiki.

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@Zikory.6871 said:

@Zikory.6871 said:Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

Why do people always resort to name calling when people disagree with them?

Its not namecalling, CC and AoE superspeed forcing people to stack superhard making gameplay boring are hardly related. Even if you spammed CC, you would have to stack to land that CC so you have speed to do so. CC is not counter to superspeed, it is counter to spreading and not sharing stability properly. If Id describe situation between you and I: For example for someone a mouse might be an insect and he points that out, someone else can call his words trolling because it just doesn't make any sense. CC would actually be more effective if people were slower, so it being counter to superspeed doesn't hold true, it is more of other way around, since chills and cripples count as CC (completely ignored by superspeed) and CC skills tend to have rather long cast times.

If everyone is a sonic, no1 will spend a full second on a field, sometimes they will even walk through it without taking any damage. Why do you guys think staff ele is deemed useless by strong groups (btw, not your group if you disagree)? Because it relies on fields.

Nice Gatekeeping. Plenty of people play weaver with success since it still one of the highest damage dealers in large fights. Both CC and leading targets improve damage. I don't agree with this reason since "coordination" will work.

Lets say you CC and AoE bomb enemies with pulsing AoEs, they can just firebrand stunbreak and then you're useless. As staff ele groups were capable of coordinating pre scrapper meta for ranged pressure, right now they're more like solo bolo bombers, that is quite useless against strong groups that don't have a tail and know how to dodge in obvious chokepoints, and there is only so much multiplayer in that.

Make zephyrite rune a must for "lot of superspeed" builds.Roaming maybe? Anyone running zeph is griefing your group. A bunch of worthless stats for ~1s when scrapper has 5 super speed skills. Or tempest, a whole rune set for 1s ss on the one skill that give ss... Again, I don't agree with this reason.Yes as it is, it is grieving, but if they make superspeed have less duration or potency, people might opt for zephyrite runes, I was asking to make zephyrite runes the go to for superspeed builds, not suggesting it already is. Diversity, that is what I want, in both gameplay and builds. Just 1 meta and combat pattern is boring. For 99% of people playing Tetris is fun at start but gets boring at some point, do we really want to cater to that 1% that love Tetris so much they dedicate their whole life to doing same thing over and over? Because that is what current meta is, Tetris, same thing over and over with small random factors. Single targeting? Dead. AoE bombing? Dead. Condi builds? Dead. Running at things ignoring all above and spamming same necro rotation? Alive.

Don't you guys miss the meta where stab 1 and stab 2 had to coordinate with each other? Time to go back there, scrappers can coordinate with revenants about superspeed, guardians can coordinate with other sources of stab. Nerf concentration stat and superspeed, thanks, right now it doesn't even feel like a multiplayer game as everyone has definite roles with no overlap or coordination.I don't know what to say to this. The multiplayer game doesn't feel like a multiplayer game? To you maybe. Running sub 25 plenty of classes have overlap and coordinate boons and skills. Because you choice not to doesn't mean plenty of groups don't...Yes but at some point you will hit a wall on how far you can go and limits of your imagination. The meta is so dumbed down that very few people want to command or start the gamemode anymore.

Btw flanking is impossible if stacking is necessity to match the speed of movement for engages. Superspeed as it is makes the gameplay less diverse and creative. No gankers, no flankers, no ranged tags, is this truly what we want? Stripped of all precious high skill and coordination moments.IMPOSSIBLE!!! Because timing SS with openings (coordinating with your TeAm) makes flanking "impossible". If both groups have SS, how can ranged groups not kite? Doesn't work for them or just not as good at coordinating?

Overall it is as simple as splitting around your group and being forced to run scrappers in everything, in ranged groups and in melee groups. And that your AoEs will get less pulses off to mobile targets (and being mobile is easier than ever with firebrands providing so much stab and conditions being extinct). Obviously not only it forces you to always interact with people but also someone to be on scrapper duty while limiting build diversity by destroying effectiveness of pulsing AoE builds.

it is just boring.Solid reason for nerfs. This guys bored...

I don't disagree that Super speed and Boon duration should be evaluated along with Healing, damage, cleanse ect. But your reasons specifically sound like l2p issues rather than game breaking...

L2P issues is not what you should worry about, what you should worry about is that maybe I have too many hours in the game and my opinion is not valid anymore. I compare the decisionmaking and movement to the past metas, and I can understand how someone that doesn't remember old metas or is a new player can not see how terrible it has gotten. The objective sizes, skill ranges and skill radii aren't just designed for this movement speed.

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DPS ele is not weak because people aren't staying in AOEs. If that were true, than DPS guard would not be the rage now (sword of justice suffers from similar problems). And necros? There's plenty of boon strip around to counter stability. If you really want to balance. superspeed, you would just make it a boon that can be stripped.

DPS ele is not preferred in organized groups, because it does not provide any group utility and has poor self sustain, thus it needs to be babied, and instead people would rather baby a more potent rev, power guard, power engi, or necro. Certainly, the damage nerfs should be reevaluated in spots as well.

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AoE superspeed should be minimal and scrapper/holo superspeed is a little overtuned, but overall it's not -that- bad.I'd definitely put this lower on the list on nerfing/adjusting mobility in this game. We should really start by giving every leap and teleport in this game the Ride the Lightning treatment. Ancestral Grace sort of got it.

Watching someone with superspeed & cripple hobble along is pretty amusing. =)

~ Kovu

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@Kovu.7560 said:AoE superspeed should be minimal and scrapper/holo superspeed is a little overtuned, but overall it's not -that- bad.I'd definitely put this lower on the list on nerfing/adjusting mobility in this game. We should really start by giving every leap and teleport in this game the Ride the Lightning treatment. Ancestral Grace sort of got it.

Watching someone with superspeed & cripple hobble along is pretty amusing. =)

~ Kovu

For sure scraper/holo has too much super speed.

The funnly thing even if it looks like a hobble they are still moving at 100%.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Guess who this will hurt the most?

Hint: its not the zerg.

Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.

From wiki.

Weird, I'd just looked prior to posting and didn't see mentioning of it, however, the math does check out thinking about it in hindsight.Either way, I still support its removal.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Jski.6180 said:It needs to stop coving over movement speed effects. The endless means of immunity to cripal and chill is not good for the game.

It doesn't cover over them. The superspeed buff itself boosts mobility to the in-combat movespeed cap by brute force due to how much it provides.We don't actually see the effects a true 100% bonus would have because OOC is capped at what swiftness offers and the in-combat movespeed maximum is just a lower number threshold.

Only way to make it less potent is hit the numbers, and I completely agree with OP that speed rune is also utterly broken and provides way too much for how easy it is to get permanent swiftness.

Swiftness - or the 33% number it provides such as traited SotL and the likes, should be the best you can get for pure landspeed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Guess who this will hurt the most?

Hint: its not the zerg.

Good. The disparity in smallscale that this effect and RoS produces is honestly way bigger than in zerg play where so much harass happens at range, anyways. Any build lacking a ton of mobility and swiftness uptime is absolutely crippled in viability as it stands because of these effects being so prominent in-combat.

Does not grant any movement speed increase while backpedaling or strafing.Only provides the 100% increase to movement speed while in combat. Outside of combat it provides the same 33% increase to movement speed as Swiftness.Makes target ignore chill and cripple movement slowing effects.Superspeed does not stack duration and new application will remove the old one even if it is longer duration.Affects Siege Golem in World vs World.

From wiki.

Weird, I'd just looked prior to posting and didn't see mentioning of it, however, the math does check out thinking about it in hindsight.Either way, I still support its removal.

Ya i do not know why it turned out like that in a copy past must be formatting or something. I like super speed a lot in the game but it should not be another hard counter to soft cc there just too many of them in the game now.

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I'm just gonna throw this out there. Op sounds like they're not very good and looking for something to justify their weak gameplay as not being their fault. The weaver comment really gave it away when I play with extremely strong weavers who's only problem is that they're squishy so they have to play on the edge of fights but that's their role anyways so doesn't really matter.

@Threather.9354 said:

@"Zikory.6871" said:Wants more coordination but can't coordinate CC to counter super speed. Interesting reasoning for this complaint...

Nice troll, we are trying to fix the game and you say "play better and just enjoy game in a bad state"

The fact that op thinks being better at the game isn't an option, and that it constitutes trolling, just proves that they're upset by their own short comings.

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