Aurene must die </3

[Grand Marshal.4098]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:Aurene kinda Mary Sue. Unless Anet pulls a fast one on us and make her fall to Jormag momentarily, it will be pretty clear that she cannot be manipulated, is immortal, will most probably absorve the majority of Jormag and Primordus' powers and that's it. If I am being honest, remove Aurene from the story and you raise the stakes even more! How will the tiny humans and co deal with those Elder Dragon beasts? How far will they have to go to find a solution in the face of doom? There, already a story much better than having a DrAgOn ScioN absorb Balthazar, eat Joko and be the weakness to Kralk.

She exists to sell plushies and be the mascot of the game. Her only meaningful reason for existing has been dealt with (and it was mediocre) so with no purpose to serve she now exists as an 'ally' who is invicible thus far and overshadows the efforts of tyrians. Remove the dragon, make a story. Easy.

Baby aurene is one of the most disgusting thing i have ever seen. It not the actual appearance (although obviosly not a baby dragon. Eyes got smaller when it grew larger, cause "logic") But the fact that, as you said, it's only made to sell with the cuteness. Which is to say: Working as intended. I doubt it will die though. At most it would just leave to an unspecified place to do...something, which would be better than having an all powerful being just conveniently be somewhere else or otherwise indisposed at the time the commaned need to do heroics, because if it is around and willing to act, it will just one-shot every threat. Ugh...

And to make things worse, Vlast, a creature with a past (who didn't appear cause of Caithe having ptsd running around with an egg, which absorbed nearly all of Mordremoth's energy) was killed the moment he was introduced. Such a freaking compelling story of him being bound to this prophecy bs with him not being able to find purpose in it. With no connections to anyone. What if he saw our virtuous actions and wished to help instead? Cause surpirse surprise he is not invincible and he can grow as a character to come and realize those things via the PC and the Pact.

But no. Kill the stupid dragon with one shot from weakened Balthazar and have baby Aurene tanking a powered-up Balthazar just because. I call major bullshit on the writers. Why even introduce Vlast in the first place? Ah yeah, to form an artificial moment of grief and sorrow for the characters who realize how shit the situation is, without killing off a fan favourite like Kasmeer, Marjory or any other Dragon's Watch member.

Fooking Gorrik. Dude had a purpose, is by far the smartest asura with a whole thing surrounding him in not being a living creature anymore and having to deal with existential crisis while figuring out ways to help those around him. Not saying he didn't server his purpose well in Ls4, but he was by far more compelling than any other asura scientists we know off rn. His death even felt meaningful cause he actually mattered (so as I said he worked but could have been much more).

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@"Yggranya.5201" said:Baby aurene is one of the most disgusting thing i have ever seen. It not the actual appearance (although obviosly not a baby dragon. Eyes got smaller when it grew larger, cause "logic")

That's commonly how growth works in real life, the eyes are larger relative to the rest of the head of many animals. In the case of humans, the size of our eyes when we're born are as big as they're going to get as adults, hence whey the look so much larger when we're small. Its not quite to the same degree with reptiles, but most young do still have larger eyes then adults.

[Touchme.1097]

Humans eyes stay about the same size from childbirth to adulthood, but this cannot apply to dragons. It didn't apply to elder dragons like Kralkatorrik for example. Vlast would have been a better NPC if the writers gave him a chance. Golden dragons are the most noble and powerful dragons usually, excluding prismatic dragons. This bonding thing is inconsistent, Aurene can still brand mortals like the other elder dragons do and it feels like an idea taken from movies just to forcefully add some cuteness to these dangerous beasts

[Oxstar.7643]

"The moment she does something different you all turn against her?""Corrupted" is a word used to fabricate context. In Caithe's case, she is blessed because what Aurene bestowed upon her was benevolent and didn't touch her free will.This turn of the story challenges not only Tyrians but also the players to re-evaluate how they see elder dragons. OP is the reactionary tyrian. Personally I choose to be open minded.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

@"Oxstar.7643"

This is what frustrates me about the current storyline. The average, normative mind has it that dark triad people are their friends and HSPs are deadly enemies and it's very tiresome. I mean, you can see that in how billionaires are defended—it's the differently abled, immigrants, and foreigners who're the real villains. The way people look at the world is topsy-turvy and wrong.

I mean, with Jormag, they're clear as day a traumatised, jaded HSP to me. All they've done is tried to defend their babies—such as Drakkar—and save lives. I mean, what they did with the charr war ended it quickly, decisively, and with the least amount of lost life. The collaring of Bangar was clever. If Jormag was a villain, there were far more harmful and destructive things they could've done whilst still maintaining a veneer of innocence. It's what they choose to do and how they go about it that tells me their truth.

As an HSP myself? I've tried to help "normal" people. The problem is is that "normal" people don't believe that kindness motivated by empathy can exist. It's a manipulation, a means of control, or I'm trying to reduce them and take their place, I'm attacking them either directly or abstractly by attempting to replace them in regards to their social standing. This is the kind of world they live in, and it's... sickening.

I mean, Jormag's only known norns who've been brainwashed by evil Spirits—who eat children—to throw away their lives in an effort to kill them. The Spirits want to eat Jormag, to take their place, so what do they do? "Oh hi norns, we're your Gods now. We say what it means to be a complete norn. So amuse us, almost die for us by attacking Jormag and their lot. If you do, maaaybe we'll bestow upon you your form and then you can be a true norn." We see this happening to Braham with Wolf in the Icebrood Saga itself.

So on one side, Jormag is being hunted by the Spirits. On the other, Jormag is being hunted by a very abusive dragon with anger management issues—that'd be Primordus—and all they can really do is run and hide. Aurene noticed this when Jormag first woke up, that they're just running around in the Mists, they aren't eating, destroying, corrupting, or anything. They're just running scared.

Even with Lake Doric, if Primordus had taken it it would've resulted in stampedes. So many would've died. Jormag saved lives. It doesn't matter, because an elder dragon can't be selfless. I mean, this thread even deals with distrust for Aurene. Why? Aurene is very "foreign," she's not very dark triad-y, so she's distrusted. We live in Topsy Turvia.

I've been dealing with this my whole life as an HSP. I've made my mistakes—just as Jormag and Aurene have—but what I want is always to help. It doesn't matter because my kind of person can't exist. There always has to be some scheme, some plot, some vile machination. Meanwhile, dark triad persons—who're brilliant chameleons—continue to groom people into being ever more easily manipulated by them.

It's very tiring. So, yes, Joramg's a traumatised, jaded HSP—but because HSPs can't exist and Jormag's a dragon? They're an evil, sociopathic manipulator, despite acting more like a neurodiverse person than any dark triad person I've ever known. I've known a few, and I've researched many more.

[Tyson.5160]

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:@"Oxstar.7643"

This is what frustrates me about the current storyline. The average, normative mind has it that dark triad people are their friends and HSPs are deadly enemies and it's very tiresome. I mean, you can see that in how billionaires are defended—it's the differently abled, immigrants, and foreigners who're the real villains. The way people look at the world is topsy-turvy and wrong.

I mean, with Jormag, they're clear as day a traumatised, jaded HSP to me. All they've done is tried to defend their babies—such as Drakkar—and save lives. I mean, what they did with the charr war ended it quickly, decisively, and with the least amount of lost life. The collaring of Bangar was clever. If Jormag was a villain, there were far more harmful and destructive things they could've done whilst still maintaining a veneer of innocence. It's what they choose to do and how they go about it that tells me their truth.

As an HSP myself? I've tried to help "normal" people. The problem is is that "normal" people don't believe that kindness motivated by empathy can exist. It's a manipulation, a means of control, or I'm trying to reduce them and take their place, I'm attacking them either directly or abstractly by attempting to replace them in regards to their social standing. This is the kind of world they live in, and it's... sickening.

I mean, Jormag's only known norns who've been brainwashed by evil Spirits—who eat children—to throw away their lives in an effort to kill them. The Spirits want to eat Jormag, to take their place, so what do they do? "Oh hi norns, we're your Gods now. We say what it means to be a complete norn. So amuse us, almost die for us by attacking Jormag and their lot. If you do, maaaybe we'll bestow upon you your form and then you can be a true norn." We see this happening to Braham with Wolf in the Icebrood Saga itself.

So on one side, Jormag is being hunted by the Spirits. On the other, Jormag is being hunted by a very abusive dragon with anger management issues—that'd be Primordus—and all they can really do is run and hide. Aurene noticed this when Jormag first woke up, that they're just running around in the Mists, they aren't eating, destroying, corrupting, or anything. They're just running scared.

Even with Lake Doric, if Primordus had taken it it would've resulted in stampedes. So many would've died. Jormag saved lives. It doesn't matter, because an elder dragon can't be selfless. I mean, this thread even deals with distrust for Aurene. Why? Aurene is very "foreign," she's not very dark triad-y, so she's distrusted. We live in Topsy Turvia.

I've been dealing with this my whole life as an HSP. I've made my mistakes—just as Jormag and Aurene have—but what I want is always to help. It doesn't matter because my kind of person can't exist. There always has to be some scheme, some plot, some vile machination. Meanwhile, dark triad persons—who're brilliant chameleons—continue to groom people into being ever more easily manipulated by them.

It's very tiring. So, yes, Joramg's a traumatised, jaded HSP—but because HSPs can't exist and Jormag's a dragon? They're an evil, sociopathic manipulator, despite acting more like a neurodiverse person than any dark triad person I've ever known. I've known a few, and I've researched many more.

Wait a second, please tell me we are not forgetting all the death and destruction that Jormag caused, even though Jormag claimed it was just defending itself...

There isn’t any evidence in game or throughout the novels that Jormag is a misunderstood good guy.

HSP and dark triad be damned, this is an ancient evil Ice dragon of persuasion, bent on killing off the only thing that can threaten its power and that’s its destructive brother, Primordus.

Jormag will die and the Spirits will take its place.

[Oxstar.7643]

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:@"Oxstar.7643"

This is what frustrates me about the current storyline. The average, normative mind has it that dark triad people are their friends and HSPs are deadly enemies and it's very tiresome. I mean, you can see that in how billionaires are defended—it's the differently abled, immigrants, and foreigners who're the real villains. The way people look at the world is topsy-turvy and wrong.

I mean, with Jormag, they're clear as day a traumatised, jaded HSP to me. All they've done is tried to defend their babies—such as Drakkar—and save lives. I mean, what they did with the charr war ended it quickly, decisively, and with the least amount of lost life. The collaring of Bangar was clever. If Jormag was a villain, there were far more harmful and destructive things they could've done whilst still maintaining a veneer of innocence. It's what they choose to do and how they go about it that tells me their truth.

As an HSP myself? I've tried to help "normal" people. The problem is is that "normal" people don't believe that kindness motivated by empathy can exist. It's a manipulation, a means of control, or I'm trying to reduce them and take their place, I'm attacking them either directly or abstractly by attempting to replace them in regards to their social standing. This is the kind of world they live in, and it's... sickening.

I mean, Jormag's only known norns who've been brainwashed by evil Spirits—who eat children—to throw away their lives in an effort to kill them. The Spirits want to eat Jormag, to take their place, so what do they do? "Oh hi norns, we're your Gods now. We say what it means to be a complete norn. So amuse us, almost die for us by attacking Jormag and their lot. If you do, maaaybe we'll bestow upon you your form and then you can be a true norn." We see this happening to Braham with Wolf in the Icebrood Saga itself.

So on one side, Jormag is being hunted by the Spirits. On the other, Jormag is being hunted by a very abusive dragon with anger management issues—that'd be Primordus—and all they can really do is run and hide. Aurene noticed this when Jormag first woke up, that they're just running around in the Mists, they aren't eating, destroying, corrupting, or anything. They're just running scared.

Even with Lake Doric, if Primordus had taken it it would've resulted in stampedes. So many would've died. Jormag saved lives. It doesn't matter, because an elder dragon can't be selfless. I mean, this thread even deals with distrust for Aurene. Why? Aurene is very "foreign," she's not very dark triad-y, so she's distrusted. We live in Topsy Turvia.

I've been dealing with this my whole life as an HSP. I've made my mistakes—just as Jormag and Aurene have—but what I want is always to help. It doesn't matter because my kind of person can't exist. There always has to be some scheme, some plot, some vile machination. Meanwhile, dark triad persons—who're brilliant chameleons—continue to groom people into being ever more easily manipulated by them.

It's very tiring. So, yes, Joramg's a traumatised, jaded HSP—but because HSPs can't exist and Jormag's a dragon? They're an evil, sociopathic manipulator, despite acting more like a neurodiverse person than any dark triad person I've ever known. I've known a few, and I've researched many more.

Interesting. However, I believe you are extrapolating overmuch.Kralkatorrik was consuming the mists.Jormag is manipulatiuve.Aurene is a beneveolent ED and people have a hard time dealing with that.And Bangar could indeed have done much more destruction, but I believe the point wasn't to make him the villain as much as a pawn in a greater scheme.As for Primordus, I believe he simply just lives to consume. Like fire does. Seems like some elder dragons are smarter than others.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@"Hypnowulf.7403"

Citation needed on this repeated but never substantiated claim of "the Spirits of the Wild eat children". And you're going to have to do better than Vilnia Shadowsong as nothing in her event shows that she is literally feeding those kids to Raven. But even in the off chance this were the case with Vilnia, thats still only Raven , its doesn't prove that All of the Spirits do. They aren't a monolith. You have provided no proof that the Spirits are any more evil than your precious Jormag.

And you are still attacking so-called neurotypical people, making these prejudiced and spurious statements as if they were fact. We'd likely take what you say more seriously if you didn't compulsively take your anger out on people that aren't like you.

[Tyson.5160]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403"

Citation needed on this repeated but never substantiated claim of "the Spirits of the Wild eat children". And you're going to have to do better than Vilnia Shadowsong as nothing in her event shows that she is literally feeding those kids to Raven. But even in the off chance this were the case with Vilnia, thats still only

Raven

, its doesn't prove that

All

of the Spirits do. They aren't a monolith. You have provided no proof that the Spirits are any more evil than your precious Jormag.

And you are

still

attacking so-called neurological people, making these prejudiced and spurious statements as if they were fact. We'd likely take what you say more seriously if you didn't compulsively take your anger out on people that aren't like you.

If I recall the event is called defeat the “evil” Raven Shaman. So whether Raven actually speaks and provides her power, remains to be seen. Much like any other evil person doing evil acts in the name of God or some other deity.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Indubitably.

[Tukaram.8256]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:How does this....."discussion"....belong in the lore subforum.....

Because only people who know the lore will know who any of these critters are. ?

[Ashantara.8731]

@Tyson.5160 said:Jormag will die and the Spirits will take its place.

Is that even possible? (That would be a fantastic twist of events, I'd love to see that.)

[Tyson.5160]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Jormag will die and the Spirits will take its place.

Is that even possible? (That would be a fantastic twist of events, I'd love to see that.)

Seems to be the case given the hints we have been supplied through the story. We are told that the Spirits are infinite wells of power.

“Braham Eirsson: The lost Spirits of the Wild! I thought Jormag killed them. We all did.Cloudseeker: Not killed. Taken. Now Drakkar feeds on them—an infinite well of power.”

The last DRM said this from Owl:

“Owl Spirit: The Wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, Norn of Prophecy. Tell them.”

And

“What did Owl mean, "the Wild together can direct the fall"?Braham Eirsson: I don't know. Why can I sense destroyers? What does Owl's message mean? How do we fight two Elder Dragons at once?”

I suspect the Fall is the release of magic from Jormag, that will channel into Braham and be released into the spirits or something of that nature.

Also Elder Dragon replacements don’t necessarily need to be dragons. Look at what Sadizi says in Path of Fire:

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Notice that Sadizi says entities rather then dragons, which leaves several methods of obtaining and balancing magic.

[dace.8019]

@nopinopa.4861 said:Taimi is getting in our mind more often and effectively.

Taimi corruption confirmed.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Tyson.5160" said:The last DRM said this from Owl:

“Owl Spirit: The Wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, Norn of Prophecy. Tell them.”

And

“What did Owl mean, "the Wild together can direct the fall"?Braham Eirsson: I don't know. Why can I sense destroyers? What does Owl's message mean? How do we fight two Elder Dragons at once?”

I, too, believe they might return to their former glory, but even back then they existed next to the Elder Dragons rather than on the same level. I see them more at the center of this, along with the Pale Tree and other forces of nature, than at any of the orbiting positions:

I suspect the Fall is the release of magic from Jormag, that will channel into Braham and be released into the spirits or something of that nature.

It is possible. But:

which leaves several methods of obtaining and balancing magic.

If it wasn't for that Omadd's Machine movie sequence, I would 100% agree. However, ANet established that strict "scientific" explanation (much like the nonsense about Midichlorians in Star Wars), which took all the magic out of Magic on Tyria. (I really hate such concepts, they ruin all the wonder and awe.)

[Tyson.5160]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The last DRM said this from Owl:

“Owl Spirit: The Wild together can direct the fall. You are the harness, Norn of Prophecy. Tell them.”

And

“What did Owl mean, "the Wild together can direct the fall"?Braham Eirsson: I don't know. Why can I sense destroyers? What does Owl's message mean? How do we fight two Elder Dragons at once?”

I, too, believe they might return to their

former

glory, but even back then they existed

next

to the Elder Dragons rather than on the same level. I see them more at the center of this, along with the Pale Tree and other forces of nature, than at any of the orbiting positions:

I suspect the Fall is the release of magic from Jormag, that will channel into Braham and be released into the spirits or something of that nature.

It is possible. But:

which leaves several methods of obtaining and balancing magic.

If it wasn't for that Omadd's Machine movie sequence, I would 100% agree. However, ANet established that strict "scientific" explanation (much like the nonsense about Midichlorians in Star Wars), which took all the magic out of Magic on Tyria. (I really hate such concepts, they ruin all the wonder and awe.)

Yet Sadizi does say entities and not strictly Elder Dragons which would fit nicely for the Spirits of the Wild, especially if they are balancing the magic with one another. They may also need Braham in terms of harnessing the power too, which may take him out of the story for a while.

[Oxstar.7643]

Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much?

1. Zhaitan must die.
2. Also Mordremoth
3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world
4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods.
5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky
6. Also we are going to kill another ED

I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon.As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere?

[Tyson.5160]

@Oxstar.7643 said:Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much?

1. Zhaitan must die.
2. Also Mordremoth
3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world
4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods.
5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky
6. Also we are going to kill another ED

I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon.As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere?

I theorized a while back when talking about dragon replacements that the Spirits of the Wild could be a possible replacement. When they started talking about the Spirits of the Wild being infinite wells of power back in Episode 2 in Jan 2020, I figured they might go that route, the latest DRM just confirmed it for me personally.

[Stephen.6312]

@Oxstar.7643 said:Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much?

1. Zhaitan must die.
2. Also Mordremoth
3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world
4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods.
5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky
6. Also we are going to kill another ED

I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon.As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere?

Who knows? The Spirits may actually envy Jormag. Elder Dragons manage a lot of magic and influence large swathes of corporeal reality. Surely other spirits want the same?

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Don't tell me you're on this "the Spirits Are EEEEEEVIL" bit too.

[Stephen.6312]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Don't tell me you're on this "the Spirits Are EEEEEEVIL" bit too.

I just like to consider both sides of the narrative. Right now, it's a given that Jormag is evil. Why can't some of the other spirits be "evil", or more realistically, not strictly "good"?

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Tyson.5160 said:Yet Sadizi does say entities and not strictly Elder Dragons which would fit nicely for the Spirits of the Wild, especially if they are balancing the magic with one another. They may also need Braham in terms of harnessing the power too, which may take him out of the story for a while.

Well, it certainly would make for a great turn of events. I prefer Norn mythology over Asuran sciene explanation and Elder Dragons - it would help steering Guild Wars back into the genre of classic fantasy, which would make for exciting story-telling instead of boring magi-tech blahblah.

[Stephen.6312]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case.

To each their own, I guess. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem is viewing all of these things through a moral lens.

[Tyson.5160]

@Stephen.6312 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case.

To each their own, I guess. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem is viewing all of these things through a moral lens.

Most likely it would make the narrative too complicated, especially if we are heading off to a new continent for whatever reason the story gives us. Right now given all the evidence shown and presented via novels as well as in game, Jormag = bad and Spirits = good.