End of Dragons: New Races (Realistic Expectations) and Elite Specializations - [Merged]

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

[Linken.6345]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Again. You are wrong. Different story, different skills, and different dialogue may not matter to YOU. But you are not the center of the universe. It matters to people who like story and aesthetics in their games. Many do. You are free to care about whatever you want. But blanket statements like that doesn't belong in matters of preferences and opinions.

Combat tonic and switch class pof you got all 3 of your criterias right there

No. Story doesn't. The fact that every race had a lengthy story arc unique to that race was a core strength of the game when it launched. The stories had different tones and feelings, and you hopefully understand that atmosphere is important for immersion, and immersion is important for enjoying the story. I think people want a new race because 1. it would also mean a new area for them 2. Novelty and more story. 3. The wombo combo would be a new race AND class.Of course, neither is likely to happen.

The whole expansion is a new areas for everyone, why lock down some of that for a new race that everyone wont make use off?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

But for how many? The cost to Anet would be considerable just to give some players another way to RP.

[VocalThought.9835]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think all of these are easy to work out.

This is half the problem with a lot of suggestions on here. People like to vastly underestimate how difficult things are.

Everything is easy or doable if you just dismiss or handwave all the hard bits and downsides about them.

I could do it right, if they hired me and gave me a team I could direct.

[VocalThought.9835]

@Linken.6345 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I see people complaining about Tengu's armor, story, and voice lines. I think all of these are easy to work out. Yes it's going to take time and money, but it's not impossible. I say, just do the darn thing. If they can create mounts in this game, they can create a race. No one is asking for perfection, but with game like this, they can always make improvements with each future game update.

Yes it will cost time and money, neither of those Anet will be able to earn back.People against a new race would rather see time and money go to something else they might enjoy.

It doesn't matter what people who are against it think. Once it's done it's done, and they can move on to discuss the next debate. People were against a new class, mounts, and new zones, and build templates. Those things came and went. A new Race could come out too and people will forget they complained.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I don't remember posters being adverse to a new Profession; must have missed that.Rarely seen posts lamenting new zones, especially with regards to an expansion.And Build Templates? Again, I don't remember negative feedback until after they were released.

Regardless, it's the Devs that have stated that a new race isn't 'on the table'. They didn't state that about the other examples.

[Lonami.2987]

@"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:Aside from the desired Tengu from which Cantha has many of.

What about Largos?They have rich culture just waiting to be pried out. Which itself can be based off of the original Guild Wars 1 Assassin. Many largos dual wield swords which could be a new addition to the THIEF class as an offhand weapon. Would be interesting to see as well because they Unending ocean is in between Cantha and our current region so would be a SHAME to not be able to have them at least in the story.

Tengu - Tengu would be a great addition to the playable races as many desire it but also because they are in the area and have a huge influence on many borders in the original Cantha.

Maybe new masteries revolving around Luxon and Kurzick alliances, an alliance system that used to be in guild wars 1 where we can aid each other in the guild menus, true GVG and more guild missions!?

Juggernaut and Siege turtle masteries?!

let the discussion begin!

If new playable races happen, largos will be a guaranteed addition, for a pretty simple reason: They're super easy to implement, since their rig is identical to that of humans, sylvari, and norn.

Anyway, here's a few ideas for both new playable races and elite specializations:

• New playable races study - Choose your favorite
• Ideas for 9 new Canthan elite specializations

@"castlemanic.3198" said:I hate to burst your bubble but according to The movement of the world:

In the year 1127 AE, Emperor Usoku, successor to Kisu, took a firm hold of his nation. He raised the Canthan military, spending millions in gold to arm his troops, and then swept the countryside. He defeated the Luxons and the Kurzick, incorporating these disparate people back into his nation. Usoku unified Cantha behind a strong national identity and began to drive out all non-humans.

So all the tengu left cantha, and the luxons and the kurzicks are no more.

That was 250 years ago, lot of things could have happened.

Also, the Sensali should still be around. There's lot of interesting things you could do with them, such as making them allies of the humans (after being defeated and enslaved centuries ago), turn them into guerrillas, make them ghosts, etc.

@"Camniel.7238" said:Something that WoodenPotatoes has prompted in his discussions on YouTube is how a new playable could mechanically work with the game and this is something I'd like to discuss in more detail as well. I'm aware that many players want either the Tengu or the Largos (or some other lesser known race) to be introduced as playable in the upcoming End of Dragons expansion. HOWEVER, I see a very big problem with this and that is story continuity. For both the Tengu and the Largos their entire civilizations have been hidden and presented as secretive or isolationist. Introducing them as playable would have to jump through multiple hoops in order for the story to make sense.

The first reason this would be difficult to do properly is that Guild Wars 2 is and always has been the story of the Pact Commander and all their amazing feats (Dragon killing etc.). If you introduce the Tengu for example you would have to do one of two things - 1. Make the Tengu character still be the Commander that basically formed the Pact, killed Zhaitan, etc. OR 2. Make the Tengu playable with a short independent story that does not interact with the Commander's story at all.

If you take path #2 with an independent story you will lose out on future content being available to that race since you are not playing as the Commander so this route would be very detrimental to the race's long term playability. If you take path #1 and make this Tengu (etc.) character be the Commander from the beginning you would have to create a brand new low level core game story to justify the presence of this FAMOUS character from a civilization no one knows anything about that is supposed to be generally isolationist. You would have to find a way to write in their civilization to the core game's story without rewriting the history of the core game in the process. So unless ArenaNet is willing to basically rewrite half the game I don't think we'll be getting a new playable race that requires a consistent backstory.

...

Does anyone have any other ideas that could realistically work in a setting that does not mess with the continuity of the game's history and lore? I'd love to see what you might come up with.

Thanks for reading this big wall of text and again, please be kind in the comments even if you dislike my approach.

This is my ideal solution:

• New playable races will not be able to play older storylines, and will directly join the Canthan plot after a short tutorial instead. Alternatively, they could access the older story instances, but use a placeholder race instead (like, if you're a tengu player, you will be transformed into a charr during the pre-EoD story instances). If you want to play the older storylines, you'll have to play as one of the original races. As for "commander continuity", either use a short cinematic where you summarize all previous events, or just "kill the commander" and give us a fresh start (kinda like we're called Outlander during PoF).
• New playable races will start their leveling experience at Cantha, using the same zones as veteran players, thanks to level-scaling. Going back to the previous zones will still be possible, but not necessary.
• New playable races will not be able to use 100% of the existing armor skins, only a selected few.

@"Camniel.7238" said:

Now, why am I saying that these are the only two real paths to include such a playable race? Because ArenaNet cannot afford to do what they did with the Revenant class to a new playable race. If you remember, when Heart of Thorns came out and introduced the Revenant to players the story introduced someone as the FIRST Revenant using magic no one knew anything about. BUT the company shoehorned the class into the whole story and created a situation where you could play as a Revenant from the very beginning of the game's story and BE a Revenant already when that character shows up as being the FIRST Revenant. Making it a really awkward situation in relation to story continuity. Like, how are you going to be using all this magic that no one knows about and then every one be surprised when someone shows up doing exactly what you've been doing the whole time? Sure you can handwave and gloss over details like that with a playable class, but you CANNOT do this with a playable race. It would wreck the story of the game and create so many awkward questions that it would weaken the game's overall story.

But I know a lot of people still want a new playable race in Guild Wars 2, and I know that a new race would be very shiny to new players. So how can you create a new race that can justify the previously established story, still be the Pact Commander, and yet be something new at the same time? I have an idea (mind you this is just an idea so please be kind in the comments).

That's ArenaNet's mistake, they should have pretended revenants existed all along and call it a day. The whole "Rytlock is the first revenant" thing was just dumb as hell and a prime example of bad writing and even worse worldbuilding.

@"Camniel.7238" said:Make the new playable race be the Exalted. You can select the Exalted race in the character selection screen which could then open a dream sequence featuring a new voice that represents the Commander (instead of relying on the voice of any previous race or gender) have the Exalted identify you as the Pact Commander in the dream without the player ever seeing the Pact Commander themselves - this allows the player to imagine that the Commander is any of the other races at this moment - offering the player the choice to become an Exalted which the character accepts on behalf of the player. This allows ALL previous story to be valid and unchanged while still introducing a new race. Once the choice has been accepted the dream ends with a flash or something and the player "wakes up" in an Exalted city (presumably in Cantha, though the location can be anywhere affecting whatever expansion this could be a part of) and is given a new and proper tutorial of the game that is currently lacking in the stories of the other races. After the tasks of the detailed tutorial are complete the player is made level 80 and is allowed to progress through the rest of the Commander's future story. Again this option of the Commander becoming an Exalted allows all previous history to be unchanged and valid without forcing new players to buy the previous expansions or do the core game right away AND provides a tutorial system that does not require interacting with old code that may not be easily understood due to its age and distance from current developers.

Another benefit to using the Exalted as the new playable race is that it's very shiny and could be attractive to new players coming from other games that might be interested in a playing a glowing, floating creature that is quite unique to Guild Wars as far as I'm aware. It could attract veteran players as well who know the story behind the Exalted and may find them fascinating as well as shiny. The new tutorial system may also put casual veterans who struggle with certain aspects of the game in a better position to compete with more "elite" players thanks to playing as the new race.

This option would in my opinion solve most of the problems of including a new race as it does not interfere with previously established story, does not need an extensive background story, allows the Commander to have been any race or gender previously in the lore, and offers a tutorial system not bogged down with long ago written code, all while being something unique and shiny, and likely easy to advertise. It would also allow new players who do not own previous expansions to play as the new race without feeling like they have to catch up to the current story via a long drawn out playthrough of previous content though that option is still available.

Exalted don't make any sense from a game development viewpoint. You can't use armor skins with them, and they can't even jump either.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think all of these are easy to work out.

This is half the problem with a lot of suggestions on here. People like to vastly underestimate how difficult things are.

Everything is easy or doable if you just dismiss or handwave all the hard bits and downsides about them.

I think the opposite is far more common. Lot of people who have no idea about programming or 3D art spewing dumb stereotypes such as "it's too hard" or "spaghetti code" as excuses for why nothing can be done, ever.

@TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:Maybe they won't give us a new playable race, but chances to play as Tengu/Largos/etc. instead? Something like Visions of the Past, where we play as Ryland, but in this case we would play as a Tengu/Largos/etc.

That would be a waste of time and miss the point altogether.

@VocalThought.9835 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I see people complaining about Tengu's armor, story, and voice lines. I think all of these are easy to work out. Yes it's going to take time and money, but it's not impossible. I say, just do the darn thing. If they can create mounts in this game, they can create a race. No one is asking for perfection, but with game like this, they can always make improvements with each future game update.

Yes it will cost time and money, neither of those Anet will be able to earn back.People against a new race would rather see time and money go to something else they might enjoy.

It doesn't matter what people who are against it think. Once it's done it's done, and they can move on to discuss the next debate. People were against a new class, mounts, and new zones, and build templates. Those things came and went. A new Race could come out too and people will forget they complained.

Exactly, there's a lot of contrarianism and "status quo zealotry" around here.

I mean, some people were against the wardrobe back in 2013, that's how bad it was.

[Oxstar.7643]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Again. You are wrong. Different story, different skills, and different dialogue may not matter to YOU. But you are not the center of the universe. It matters to people who like story and aesthetics in their games. Many do. You are free to care about whatever you want. But blanket statements like that doesn't belong in matters of preferences and opinions.

Combat tonic and switch class pof you got all 3 of your criterias right there

No. Story doesn't. The fact that every race had a lengthy story arc unique to that race was a core strength of the game when it launched. The stories had different tones and feelings, and you hopefully understand that atmosphere is important for immersion, and immersion is important for enjoying the story. I think people want a new race because 1. it would also mean a new area for them 2. Novelty and more story. 3. The wombo combo would be a new race AND class.Of course, neither is likely to happen.

The whole expansion is a new areas for everyone, why lock down some of that for a new race that everyone wont make use off?

Maybe there just is a demand for it.

[Lonami.2987]

@Camniel.7238 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Camniel.7238 said:As I said, I'm running on the thesis that OTHER players DO want a playable race and I want to discuss how that CAN be introduced without breaking story.

I'm quite sure most players that are asking for a new playable race want a specific race, like Tengu or Largos, or Skritt, or Dwarves or whatever, and very few are saying a generic "please add a new race". So bringing up a new race that most players never asked for in the first place and calling it a "solution" to the desire to add a specific race, isn't going to work.

There is this thread here with suggestions and discussion over the topic of races:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21242/new-playable-races-study-choose-your-favorite/p1

You linked a thread that just offers races you might want. It has nothing to do with how that race can be implemented into the story without causing retcons. Do you have a race or method of story implementation that would cause say the Tengu or other requested race to be introduced without retcons or similar story confusion?

Both tengu and largos could join the other races in the Personal Story without any problems. The Pact has tengu and largos members already, such as Izu Steelshrike and Sayeh al' Rajihd.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Camniel.7238 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Camniel.7238 said:As I said, I'm running on the thesis that OTHER players DO want a playable race and I want to discuss how that CAN be introduced without breaking story.

I'm quite sure most players that are asking for a new playable race want a specific race, like Tengu or Largos, or Skritt, or Dwarves or whatever, and very few are saying a generic "please add a new race". So bringing up a new race that most players never asked for in the first place and calling it a "solution" to the desire to add a specific race, isn't going to work.

There is this thread here with suggestions and discussion over the topic of races:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21242/new-playable-races-study-choose-your-favorite/p1

You linked a thread that just offers races you might want. It has nothing to do with how that race can be implemented into the story without causing retcons. Do you have a race or method of story implementation that would cause say the Tengu or other requested race to be introduced without retcons or similar story confusion?

The easiest solution is when they add a new race, to start their story from that point onward. So if a new race is added with the expansion, it will only take part in the expansion content and forget the previous living world seasons and of course the previous expansions. For example, a playable Tengu will start from the Dominion of Winds, then move on to Cantha. Same with Largos, they'd be in their water city and find a reason to move to Cantha. They will never fight Zhaitan, Mordremoth or Kralkatorik.

And this isn't even a new idea, especially for Arenanet, it's how the story of Guild Wars Factions (and Nightfall) worked, players that started in Prophecies and players that started in Factions had a completely different story up to a certain point, interacting with different characters. Tyrians will have Dragon's Watch and be the champions of Aurene, Canthans will have a new story to become the champions of Kuunavang. In fact, disregarding a new race, I'd really love it if I could play a Canthan HUMAN (yes human), with a brand new Canthan exclusive storyline, that doesn't know anything about what's happening outside Cantha.

No need for retcons, no need to mess the story.

The Kuunavang angle is the best approach imo. Kill the Commander, stop using that title and give us a fresh start no matter your race or origin. Forget about Dragon's Watch and give us new characters to play the story with; or just find a way to introduce them to the new races, so we become best friends and you don't need different dialogue options going forward.

And yeah, being able to start as humans in the new Canthan leveling experience would be great.

@Linken.6345 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I see people complaining about Tengu's armor, story, and voice lines. I think all of these are easy to work out. Yes it's going to take time and money, but it's not impossible. I say, just do the darn thing. If they can create mounts in this game, they can create a race. No one is asking for perfection, but with game like this, they can always make improvements with each future game update.

Yes it will cost time and money, neither of those Anet will be able to earn back.People against a new race would rather see time and money go to something else they might enjoy.

Where? New playable races are art deparment work, it's not like PvP or raids are going to get affected by it.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:the real issue with new race is simply armor, they already have lots of trouble with charr cliping issues or adapting, imagine a tengu.. unless they just reeskin one of already existing races, but at end the players will notice the cheap job.

Don't let new races use 100% of the old armor, plain and simple.

@Oxstar.7643 said:Utterly incorrect statement. Races have their own storylines, their own racial abilities, and dialogue differences in the story. They very much matter.

Your character's race hasn't mattered to the story since 2012.

[Oxstar.7643]

There still is a lengthy story arc unique to the races. Sure, it doesn't matter to anyone who have played for a long time, but to any new players it certainly does. I'm just stating the naked fact. If you don't care about races then good for you. Also, like I said before, being certain races have dialogue changes at some points in the story, and while I won't spoil them, little details like this matters to more people than you might think, because it adds flavor to the story. Not to mention that the VA' s for the races have different points of emotional highs and lows in some parts where others don't. Details, detail, details! They matter.

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

But for how many? The cost to Anet would be considerable just to give some players another way to RP.

I wish there was a way to know. We just have to trust that Anet is doing thier research and appeals to as many players as possible with new content. I personally think more people want a new race than don't but there is no way for me to confirm or prove that. All we can do is speculate and agree to disagree on this point.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

But for how many? The cost to Anet would be considerable just to give some players another way to RP.

I wish there was a way to know. We just have to trust that Anet is doing thier research and appeals to as many players as possible with new content. I personally think more people want a new race than don't but there is no way for me to confirm or prove that. All we can do is speculate and agree to disagree on this point.

It’s not really about whether they want a new race or not but rather their reasons for wanting it. For pretty much every reason that doesn’t have to do with RP, Anet could add to the game without having to deal with the personal/living story implications as well as the costs associated with voicing a new race and updating/creating armor skins for it.

[Super Hayes.6890]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

But for how many? The cost to Anet would be considerable just to give some players another way to RP.

I wish there was a way to know. We just have to trust that Anet is doing thier research and appeals to as many players as possible with new content. I personally think more people want a new race than don't but there is no way for me to confirm or prove that. All we can do is speculate and agree to disagree on this point.

It’s not really about whether they want a new race or not but rather their reasons for wanting it. For pretty much every reason that doesn’t have to do with RP, Anet could add to the game without having to deal with the personal/living story implications as well as the costs associated with voicing a new race and updating/creating armor skins for it.

I personally want the lore from playing as a Tengu and want to create one from scratch which is why tonics are too limiting. There is so much potential story there. I would be happy with any new race really as long as they add meaningful story with them. I don't really RP independantly of the story anyway. It is a tall order though and at the end of the day I want them to go the route that brings the most success to the game. If that isn't a new race I will be perfectly happy with thier decision.

[Svarty.8019]

@"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:Aside from the desired Tengu from which Cantha has many of.

What about Largos?They have rich culture just waiting to be pried out. Which itself can be based off of the original Guild Wars 1 Assassin. Many largos dual wield swords which could be a new addition to the THIEF class as an offhand weapon. Would be interesting to see as well because they Unending ocean is in between Cantha and our current region so would be a SHAME to not be able to have them at least in the story.

Tengu - Tengu would be a great addition to the playable races as many desire it but also because they are in the area and have a huge influence on many borders in the original Cantha.

Maybe new masteries revolving around Luxon and Kurzick alliances, an alliance system that used to be in guild wars 1 where we can aid each other in the guild menus, true GVG and more guild missions!?

Juggernaut and Siege turtle masteries?!

let the discussion begin!

I would prefer that time and effort were put into WvW than new races and classes and traits and elite specialisations.

More specialisations = more work in future and less sensible class equivalency.

Is a team with the same (probably depleting over time) number of people to do ever more work?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Super Hayes.6890 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Different dialogue when? Like 99.99% of the dialogue, outside of the first three personal story arcs, are exactly the same across all races.

I still ask:

What would a new playable race really offer that couldn't be accomplished without one being added?

In the case of the Tengu it would add a new starter city with a new cultural immersion. Dominion of Winds could be added without playable Tengu but the PC would automatically be an outsider. Playing through the early story line before the Pact arc would be cool imo through the eyes and experiences of a Tengu. I know that doesn't sound like a lot of value for the work involved but it would be huge for some of us. The problem with a new playable race is that it adds massive value to some of us and little to none for others. I think the expansion needs a new playable race and something else that is just as big. This is unrealistic, however.

None of what you've mentioned are dependent on there being a playable race though. There's nothing preventing Anet from dedicating a city and zone map for Tengu nor is there anything preventing them from dedicated some story arcs around the Tengu. The only thing a new race really adds is a means to RP as a Tengu.

You aren't wrong but that RP element is a big seller for some of us.

But for how many? The cost to Anet would be considerable just to give some players another way to RP.

I wish there was a way to know. We just have to trust that Anet is doing thier research and appeals to as many players as possible with new content. I personally think more people want a new race than don't but there is no way for me to confirm or prove that. All we can do is speculate and agree to disagree on this point.

It’s not really about whether they want a new race or not but rather their reasons for wanting it. For pretty much every reason that doesn’t have to do with RP, Anet could add to the game without having to deal with the personal/living story implications as well as the costs associated with voicing a new race and updating/creating armor skins for it.

I personally want the lore from playing as a Tengu and want to create one from scratch which is why tonics are too limiting. There is so much potential story there. I would be happy with any new race really as long as they add meaningful story with them. I don't really RP independantly of the story anyway. It is a tall order though and at the end of the day I want them to go the route that brings the most success to the game. If that isn't a new race I will be perfectly happy with thier decision.

You can get lore without playing as a new race such as the Tengu. It's not dependent on playing as the race. You could technically delete all but one race from the game and slightly modify the deleted races' personal story-lines to have the playable character of the kept race be a third party assisting what used to be the playable characters for those racial story-lines. You'd get basically the same story and lore but without the RP aspect of it.

[Warzog.6315]

As there is a Tengu guarded gate in Lion's Arch, to me, the Tengu are long overdue. Add to that, by having the Tengu, one could theoretically be able to fly and/or glide without having to have the two previous expansions. And with all of the various unused Asura Gates around Tyria, access to the various tribes would add countless new zones. One of which is high on a cliff in the Brisban Wildlands that is only accessible by flying up to it.The Largos could also benefit from all of the unused Asura Gates, and their story could include being forced from the Jade Sea when it solidified, but return to it once the Jade Sea became liquid again.Of the two, I'd think that the Tengu would be more likely, as the Largos should have a lot of trouble dealing with the deserts of the Path of FIRE expansion.As to other races... The devs DO like to through us a curve ball from time to time, so who knows?However, I would think that no matter what a ton of new asian faces would be added to the game. (only a couple are in it right now) I personally would like to see ALL of GW1's Faction faces, along with their armor, in the new expansion.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

redacted .

[Swagger.1459]

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:This thread is about elite specs, not races. try to keep it on the right track.

Hmmm... are u sure about that?

Title “ New Races (Realistic Expectations) and Elite Specializations”

And you talk about races in your op from 2020...

?

I’ll even quote you so I can be helpful!

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:Aside from the desired Tengu from which Cantha has many of.

What about Largos?They have rich culture just waiting to be pried out. Which itself can be based off of the original Guild Wars 1 Assassin. Many largos dual wield swords which could be a new addition to the THIEF class as an offhand weapon. Would be interesting to see as well because they Unending ocean is in between Cantha and our current region so would be a SHAME to not be able to have them at least in the story.

Tengu - Tengu would be a great addition to the playable races as many desire it but also because they are in the area and have a huge influence on many borders in the original Cantha.

Maybe new masteries revolving around Luxon and Kurzick alliances, an alliance system that used to be in guild wars 1 where we can aid each other in the guild menus, true GVG and more guild missions!?

Juggernaut and Siege turtle masteries?!

let the discussion begin!

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:This thread is about elite specs, not races. try to keep it on the right track.

Hmmm... are u sure about that?

Title “ New Races (Realistic Expectations) and Elite Specializations”

And you talk about races in your op from 2020...

?

I’ll even quote you so I can be helpful!

@Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:Aside from the desired Tengu from which Cantha has many of.

What about Largos?They have

rich culture

just waiting to be pried out. Which itself can be based off of the original Guild Wars 1 Assassin. Many largos dual wield swords which could be a new addition to the THIEF class as an offhand weapon. Would be interesting to see as well because they Unending ocean is in between Cantha and our current region so would be a SHAME to not be able to have them at least in the story.

Tengu - Tengu would be a great addition to the playable races as many desire it but also because they are in the area and have a huge influence on many borders in the original Cantha.

Maybe new masteries revolving around Luxon and Kurzick alliances, an alliance system that used to be in guild wars 1 where we can aid each other in the guild menus, true GVG and more guild missions!?

Juggernaut and Siege turtle masteries?!

let the discussion begin!

off my meds carry on!

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I had an idea coming up to my mind the previous day. A simple one. But I would appreciate if the next especs felt like the specs of a "new era". A post-Medieval/Rennaisance feel to them, based on suggestions made by players. Basically:

Warrior -> double pistol, gunslinger/pirate themeGuardian -> oh sword, Inquisitor/exorcist dark themeRevenant -> scepter mh, axe oh, cultist theme (would be ideal with a mursaat stance and how mursaat are evil dark gods)Engineer -> mace oh mh, plagudoctor themeThief -> oh sword, assassin themeRanger -> rifle/hammer, hunter themeNecromancer -> not an idea on this one. Necros are already a thing in the era I describe. Maybe some Evoker? Definitely not a minion specElementalist -> rifle/pistols, another more modern theme to classic elemental magicMesmer -> mh pistol/double dagger, a gambit theme

[ugrakarma.9416]

new combatic tonic > new race.

[Sirius.4510]

@"Lonami.2987" said:This is my ideal solution:

• New playable races will not be able to play older storylines, and will directly join the Canthan plot after a short tutorial instead. Alternatively, they could access the older story instances, but use a placeholder race instead (like, if you're a tengu player, you will be transformed into a charr during the pre-EoD story instances). If you want to play the older storylines, you'll have to play as one of the original races. As for "commander continuity", either use a short cinematic where you summarize all previous events, or just "kill the commander" and give us a fresh start (kinda like we're called Outlander during PoF).
• New playable races will start their leveling experience at Cantha, using the same zones as veteran players, thanks to level-scaling. Going back to the previous zones will still be possible, but not necessary.
• New playable races will not be able to use 100% of the existing armor skins, only a selected few.

I think you're more or less on the right track there. Though I don't know if I see ArenaNet pulling a "kill the commander", because then you have to explain how you replaced them and figure out some kind of transition where the existing Dragon's Watch etc characters adjust to the commander's death, replacement, and fairly quickly have to act the same with a "new race" character as an "existing race" character so they don't need to split the dialogue forever. They might still do it, but it'd be a tricky balancing act. It might be possible to instead appear alongside the commander (who would be an NPC in this case) instead of replacing them, but that introduces sufficient complexities it might not work out either.

So I'd expect the game would pretend you were always the commander but not allow you to play old story content with the new race. Then you warn new players that they probably want to start playing with an existing race first, or they're going to miss stuff. And that way you don't really need to do a big tutorial either; the character can just start at level 80 and have some kind of introductory story that explains how they joined the Pact.

It sounds like WoW does something similar with its "allied races". Obviously it's not ideal, but I suspect for most players who want new playable races, it beats never adding any at all.

The one significant problem is that it still adds cost to future content, because you still have to handle voicing (and GW2's player character has quite a lot of voice lines, for an RPG) and you still have to set up new armor skins to work. So ANet might still have decided "no", but that said, there aren't a lot of other interesting things to add for expansions at this point.

[Leo G.4501]

@"Sirius.4510" said:I think you're more or less on the right track there. Though I don't know if I see ArenaNet pulling a "kill the commander", because then you have to explain how you replaced them and figure out some kind of transition where the existing Dragon's Watch etc characters adjust to the commander's death, replacement, and fairly quickly have to act the same with a "new race" character as an "existing race" character so they don't need to split the dialogue forever.

All the dialog that occurs in the story isn't directed to the Commander though. You can certainly have a split dialog for newbie and old commander for nearly the entire expansion. You just have to think creatively and plan the dialog accordingly (which I'm sure they already do). You can even use a lot of the same dialog (because I've noticed a good portion of the dialog in the PoF missions is exposition being told at me with a light peppering of reference to past situations) with some additional dialog for the newbie.

Again, I have a lot of possible elements and tropes I can make an example of for an interesting outcome that isn't as daunting as posters make it out to be...it's just not really worth the time to write it all out and I'm sure no one actually cares to read such a post.

[Randin.5701]

I've mentioned it before in some of these new race threads, but I still think that the best way to handle things with regards to story and voice acting is to just not give the hypothetical new race a new voice. Instead, use the existing recordings for one of the current races, alter the pitch and/or cadence a little, maybe add some minor effect to it (bird sounds for the tengu, or something like that), and use that as the voice for the new race. Doing that, you could still have the new race go through the whole story, and do so without having to record a massive amount of new dialogue (you'd still have to record some new stuff, but a fraction of what you'd need to do if you were starting from scratch with a new voice actor).

And I will say that, after the latest story episode, I do actually think there's a chance that we're getting a new race--it's a long ways off of being a certainty, but at least possible. Maybe I'm just seeing things, but during the DRM in Caledon Forest, it looked like the tengu girl was actually using a new set of animations--definitely not the animations that the regular tengu in Caledon and Kessex use, and I'm reasonably certain they weren't the animations the quetzal in HoT use, either. Granted, there are other reasons why they might be making new tengu animations--creating a third NPC tengu faction in Cantha, for instance--but it could be a sign that playable tengu are happening.

[Puck.3697]

Without the option to race change I don't see the point of this really. You can't really reroll without redoing every hero point etc etc it's alot of work for a race change.. so I don't think new races is the best idea