Trapper Rune is still in the game?

[Math.5123]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Math.5123 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The problem is less trapper rune and more:

1. Reveal on hit for stealth is a bad mechanic for PvP
2. DH has two unevadeable CC pulls, which combined with Reveal-on-hit makes for uninteractive and unskillful "spam AoEs " gameplay

If you fixed stealth and removed unevadeables ( No skill needs to be unevadeable unless you are trash. Learn to count your opponents dodges ) trapper rune would be fine.

Dh has no unevadable pulls.

Hunters Verdict is unevadeable, and anyone who can't land SoJ from stealth is literally the worst DH in the entire game.

Dragons maw is practically unevadeable. The skill itself is technically evadeable, but the AoE CC it creates when triggered is not. Thing is, evading through the trap triggers it. So the skill is for all intensive purposes unevadeable. You can also buffer/precast the skill into a teleport to instant-cast it on someone from long range -dodging this will not work even with godlike reflexes since you will still trigger the unevadeable AoE.

First of all, if a dh is using his Spear. He loses all the damage from SoJ, which is about 90% of the damage on burn dh. So you should be happy if he uses it. Means you won the fight.

You realize you can leap through the trap, run through with a block, with one stack of aegis, dodgeroll through, or simply stab it.

I'm not defending trapper rune or burn dh. But you're targeting the wrong areas.

@Shao.7236 said:@Math.5123 Test of faith still hit for 5k on Marauders, it's not unreasonably hard to get multiple hits along the other skills either and that's without Radiance. It's above the typical burst you see in the game of around 10k before people evade randomly and that keeps it in a good place.

Deflecting Shot being slower is debatable as a bad thing, before it was pretty instant, more reasons to get good at it because instant is annoyingly cheesy for the game. All CC's lost damage so nothing new here for the pace of everything else.

Never found a reason to cheese my way at it with Judge Intervention as it gets boring, feels like everyone want that in their build while Signet of Judgement is equally good over time and after for the sustain part of things, plays at a lower CD for the stunbreak. I get it. Must jump on people by port, trap, true shot, deflecting shot at the same time but because that one takes longer doesn't mean you can't swap and shield push instead, there's other ways to combine Deflecting Shot reliably regardless.

Afaik having to put more effort into it often means "slowed down" these days but I'll never agree to it, bringing a bunker in the topic won't have me change my mind either. Have yet to see one survive a proper not key mash 1v2, the moment I'll be seeing bunkers like Chrono/Scrapper that can sit directly on node like in 2016 then I'll express some concerns.

You never used JI for the damage or the stunbreak. You used it for mobilty and chase potential, and the extra healing and fury from monks focus. Marauder dh won't kill a scrapper, weaver or Renegade even if they unbind their dodge.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Starbreaker.6507 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the best is when the dh leaves a full trap bomb on point then walks to the other side of them map and kills you when you try to cap said point. cuz skill boys.

Yep, totally the DH's fault that people are oblivious and waddle onto a point thinking it would be a 100% clear.

Too bad demanding nerfs doesn't make the remaining playerbase any smarter

@Math.5123 said:Dh has no unevadable pulls.

Just felt like quoteposting this because it was funny.

Also, while the second one is just untrue, being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

[Math.5123]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Starbreaker.6507 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the best is when the dh leaves a full trap bomb on point then walks to the other side of them map and kills you when you try to cap said point. cuz skill boys.

Yep, totally the DH's fault that people are oblivious and waddle onto a point thinking it would be a 100% clear.

Too bad demanding nerfs doesn't make the remaining playerbase any smarter

@Math.5123 said:Dh has no unevadable pulls.

Just felt like quoteposting this because it was funny.

Also, while the second one is just untrue, being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

[Shao.7236]

@"Math.5123" But what really kills anything that bunks outside the overblown meta builds, it's even debatable if they'd die by anything at all 1v1 as it requires teamwork to do so, those can still be fought on node that belongs to you for a long time.

You're not the only one here and because you ain't viable doing that exclusively doesn't mean everything else is. Your view is WAY too narrow on the matter.

For mention that Elementalists be it Weaver or Tempest absolutely gets destroyed by Power damage the moment their flow is broken, that's not just for Meditrapper but anything. Power DH still breaks hard through Light Armor.

Also, why do you care so much for chasing potential if you got the node, you won the fight. To think people care about teleporting from 1200 units when you already have a weapon that can hit up to 1500 units, sure you can chase better but what guaranteeds the kill that you wouldn't have been able to get with your already strong range because of what, LoS? Having one utility to skill to fix that is very inefficient.

Something that can move around this fast is likely to trick you into going back on the node and if you already used your port for "mobility or offensive damage", then you probably lost the point.

JI is honestly way more useful on Core than DH because you need to close the gap for damage, DH doesn't have that issue with Longbow.

The healing on JI is also VERY negligible overtime compared having a 10% damage reduction across the board, do the math. Less damage means that your healing has much more value in the end on top of being free Retaliation for Teamfights and a lower cooldown stunbreak.

Also please stop acting like getting hit by anything is laughable and stupid, it's quite easy to land anything when you can hit people after dodge. If they double dodge, that's a good trade in utility cd for endurance.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

@Math.5123 said:

If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

This is true.

Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

This is true.

It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

Trapper rune stealth application.

[Lucentfir.7430]

Do you smell that? It smells like removing options from the game, because something is strong right now. No doubt when you remove that something, something else is going to be too strong. You heard them anet, remove more options!

[Downstate.4697]

What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

[Dadnir.5038]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

[Cynz.9437]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

Ranger traps got nerfed.Thief traps got removed completely.An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong %D You guys may defend this all you want eventually thanks to this rune DH, not the rune, but DH will be nerfed, just other classes did because of this rune. I wonder though if you really will enjoy it.

Remember how mesmers defended mirage on launch instead of admitting that EM was too good and giving constructive feedback? Yeah. Look where mirage is now.

[Shao.7236]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

[Cynz.9437]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

I have faith in Anet nerfing skills: something along the line "added 300 sec CD" lol. You know, the usual type of "balance".

[Dadnir.5038]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

Imo you can get more condition damage out of DH runeset than you can get out of trapper's runeset. The rune's condition damage isn't even close to be the main selling point of the runeset.

As for your question, you can't really decently nerf DH traps but it doesn't mean that it won't happen. They can change the way Procession of blade work for example. They can put a 2s ICD on being hit by test of faith, they can make light's judgment tic every 2s instead of every seconds... etc. It's not that difficult to find crippling nerfs that would just end up making traps not weaker on paper but close to useless (to the point that the stealth become meaningless) in practice.

[Math.5123]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

@Math.5123 said:

If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

This is true.

Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

This is true.

It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

Trapper rune stealth application.

What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Math.5123 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

@Math.5123 said:

If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

This is true.

Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

This is true.

It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

Trapper rune stealth application.

What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

[Fueki.4753]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.The problem here is that DH had been designed with power damage in mind, yet Burning as a condition so atrociously strong that DH is better at Condition damage. So the problem is one of balancing, not of design.

It doesn't help that rune of the Trapper is just exacerbating the problem and gives DH things that Guardians ought to not have access to.

Suffice to say, both this rune and Burning are too strong.A bit of shaving is necessary, alongside with a rework of the rune's 6th effect.

DH's design is fine for what is supposed to be, it just suffers from the February 25th patch of last year.If anything, I'd just replace Pure of Sight, as being further away should not result in higher damage.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

[Math.5123]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

It's only permeating wrath. Making the burn aoe and trigger twice as often (I know it's 40%) is the issue.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Math.5123 said:It's only permeating wrath. Making the burn aoe and trigger twice as often (I know it's 40%) is the issue.

hah, no. symbolic power is most definitely a problem. anyone reading the skill description should be able to figure it out for themselves.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Math.5123 said:Dh has no unevadable pulls.

@Math.5123 said:It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

@Math.5123 said:What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

We weren't talking about DH Spear damage though. We were talking about whether the skill is un-evadable and if that un-evadable aspect is easily applied/there is an excuse to being hit by it. the answer to both of those questions is yes on Trapper rune builds, since trapper rune makes it easier to apply the first spear skill.

Even if we were, the spear damage is not solely relevant to the synergy with Trapper runes. My issue is that Trapper Runes gives guardians a means to hide animations that high damage skills rely on to justify them. Spear tether is just one of those.

@Cynz.9437 said:An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong

^.Guardians already have generous amounts of damage mitigation built into their core. Their weaknesses- Namely that they are ordinarily highly visible and have telegraphed animations/are only mobile in bursts are all covered by Trapper Rune.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

U guys are right, I only meant that its extremely bad that the largest majority of dh/ burn guards damage is from passive burn procs, either those traits need changed, procs significantly reduced or burn itself needs significantly nerfed or whatever knowledgeable guard players think needs to happen if their honest lol. I haven't played guard or its specs for yrs so I can't rightly give suggestions on how to nerf it properly.That said 6th bonus of rune needs to be changed as it gives dh both invisibility and quickness to a spec that definitely should not have easy access to both.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Math.5123 said:Dh has no unevadable pulls.

@Math.5123 said:It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

@Math.5123 said:What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

We weren't talking about DH Spear damage though. We were talking about whether the skill is un-evadable and if that un-evadable aspect is easily applied/there is an excuse to being hit by it. the answer to both of those questions is yes on Trapper rune builds, since trapper rune makes it easier to apply the first spear skill.

Even if we were, the spear damage is not solely relevant to the synergy with Trapper runes. My issue is that Trapper Runes gives guardians a means to hide animations that high damage skills rely on to justify them. Spear tether is just one of those.

@Cynz.9437 said:An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong

^.Guardians already have generous amounts of damage mitigation built into their core. Their weaknesses- Namely that they are ordinarily highly visible and have telegraphed animations/are only mobile in bursts are all covered by Trapper Rune.

Not to mention it's impossible to be looking around you at a 360-degree angle at all times. Being hit by spear is, by all means, a real possibility even in part thanks to foul luck.