Jump to content
  • Sign Up

I'd like to see better rune diversity


Recommended Posts

@Infusion.7149 said:ENGINEER

  • Holo - 17,549.25 Eagle | 17,531.09 Scholar 0% uptime | 17,290.56 Thief (not in top 50 results) ---> effectively evenQuite impressive concidering that precision is worthless on holo.

RANGER

  • Soulbeast Skirmishing (spotter self supplied but not needed) - 22,790.75 Eagle | 22,682.90 Thief | 22,682.68 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.5% varianceAgain precision is useless.

MESMER

  • Chrono with danger time - 18,741.26 Eagle | 18,549.05 Thief (Furious Stone) | 18,530.68 Thief | 18,092.60 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 3.5% effective scholar bonus to be even
  • Chrono without danger time - 16,249.63 Thief (Furious Stone) | 16,224.96 Thief | 15,949.73 Eagle | 15,190.22 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

Its not that simple for mesmer. phantasms are 50% of your dmg and dont scale with mods unless stated by the trait. thats why thief runes are bad on mesmer. use eagle. also accuracy is unusable.ELEMENTALIST

  • Power weaver, fresh air - 15,746.60 Eagle | 15,642.85 Thief | 15,117.07 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be evenYet flame legion are better because more than 10% of your damage are burning.If the scholar bonus is reduced to ~3% then up to half of the builds would be marginally better using eagle due to the damage bonus on eagle. Other runes aren't in the Snowcrows calculator and the gap to pack runes and others that are present in the calculator present larger differences. Eagle rune has a large ferocity bonus on top of the damage bonus as mentioned in my first post in this thread.

The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nephalem.8921 said:

ENGINEER
  • Holo - 17,549.25 Eagle | 17,531.09 Scholar 0% uptime | 17,290.56 Thief (not in top 50 results) ---> effectively evenQuite impressive concidering that precision is worthless on holo.

RANGER
  • Soulbeast Skirmishing (spotter self supplied but not needed) - 22,790.75 Eagle | 22,682.90 Thief | 22,682.68 Scholar 0% uptime ---> effectively the same, below 0.5% varianceAgain precision is useless.

MESMER
  • Chrono with danger time - 18,741.26 Eagle | 18,549.05 Thief (Furious Stone) | 18,530.68 Thief | 18,092.60 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 3.5% effective scholar bonus to be even
  • Chrono without danger time - 16,249.63 Thief (Furious Stone) | 16,224.96 Thief | 15,949.73 Eagle | 15,190.22 Scholar 0% uptime ---> never can match thief rune (bonus must exceed 6%)

Its not that simple for mesmer. phantasms are 50% of your dmg and dont scale with mods unless stated by the trait. thats why thief runes are bad on mesmer. use eagle. also accuracy is unusable.

Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

@Nephalem.8921 said:

ELEMENTALIST
  • Power weaver, fresh air - 15,746.60 Eagle | 15,642.85 Thief | 15,117.07 Scholar 0% uptime ---> 4% effective scholar bonus to be evenYet flame legion are better because more than 10% of your damage are burning.
    If the scholar bonus is reduced to ~3% then up to half of the builds would be marginally better using eagle due to the damage bonus on eagle.
    Other runes aren't in the Snowcrows calculator and the gap to pack runes and others that are present in the calculator present larger differences. Eagle rune has a large ferocity bonus on top of the damage bonus as mentioned in my first post in this thread.

The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

According to who?Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

I've given A. the source of my calculations rather than some vague "excel sheet" , B. the ways to reproduce it.Having gone through the code used on the sites circa last year I have rather high confidence in them. No need to reinvent the wheel.

For your elementalist build case, which is only one variant and the lower average bench, it can be replicated in discretize calculator by adjusting the damage split.With a 88% power and 12% burning split on discretize calculator with ferocity food, force, impact 3% (not even full 10%), no spotter , assassin's presence, empower allies, or bane signet , 0AR , the Damage Indicator as specified by discretize:

  • Scholar with full current bonus 2,130.266 (effective power 24,392.242)
  • Scholar with full current bonus 2,130.266 (effective power 24,392.242) with 100 precision 70 ferocity food , so exactly the same
  • Thief 2,112.921 (effective power 24,165.401) ---> drops with precision food to 2,066.595 (effective power 23,625.808)
  • Eagle 2,130.252 (effective power 24,392.075) ---> with 50% uptime this would drop to ~2,033 damage indicator (effective power ~23,283)
  • Spellbreaker 2,098.075 (effective power 24,017.281) ---> drops with precision food
  • Flame Legion 2,063.155 (effective power 23,435.326 , 70% burn duration) ---> same thing with precision food
  • Ogre 2,044.436 (effective power 23,392.515) ---> same thing with precision food
  • Scholar w/o bonus 2,030.544 (effective power 23,230.707) ---> same thing with precision food
  • Strength 2,010.5 (effective power 22,997.283) ---> same thing with precision food
  • Pack 1,974.853 (effective power 22,582.028) ---> drops with precision food

Note superior elements is not checked off by default and assassin's presence (from renegades) is checked by default because discretize is oriented toward fractals.


An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

Lack of spotter can be supplemented by Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup or other 100 precision food if not min-maxing. Lifesteal on ascended food isn't available but accounts for 162.5 DPS.

If thief runes were more utilized it would actually be healthier than if eagle runes were heavily utilized simply for the fact that the crafting requires charm of skill rather than charm of brilliance. It also would put more emphasis on positioning rather than just overhealing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nephalem.8921 said:If you raid berserker would take thief runes because the no flanking runes are niche. Solo you would often take eagle. Virtues dh takes thief aswell.Not sure what infusions numbers are but they are not effective power. no idea what discretize calculates there.

I guess we're on a different page then. I'm not going to have an entirely different gear set just for a set of runes. I'll take the one that does best most of the time, which would be scholar's. Even if it lags the others a little bit in edge cases, it's not by much and you're sacrificing top-notch performance for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:If you raid berserker would take thief runes because the no flanking runes are niche. Solo you would often take eagle. Virtues dh takes thief aswell.Not sure what infusions numbers are but they are not effective power. no idea what discretize calculates there.

I guess we're on a different page then. I'm not going to have an entirely different gear set just for a set of runes.
I'll take the one that does best most of the time
, which would be scholar's. Even if it lags the others a little bit in edge cases, it's not by much and you're sacrificing top-notch performance for it.

Its the opposite in raids. There are 2 encounters where flanking isnt possible. you would be suboptimal for the majority just to be better at 2? In raids thief is best most of the time.

@Infusion.7149 said:Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

Doesnt matter if phantasms flank because they are not affected by mods from runes. only bare stats and some traits apply. thats why accuracy isnt good either and your scholar build used it. you want your phantasms to crit because mesmer has 2 damage mods that only work on crits. those are affecting your phantasms. 30% eagle vs 60% thief lets eagle runes win hard.

The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

According to who?Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

Do you mean my stated effective scholar bonus? arc logs that and i went through a couple of logs. highest was 4.88% and lowest 2.8%. Most of the time it was around 4.2%.If you mean flame legion runes. both sites mention those. you know you could just have different sets with different runes. raids and fractals reward you with countless ascended chests. what are you using them for?

An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

There are simply no other power fero mod runes and why should there? a single straight forward damage option is better than having 10 options nobody uses because mathematically one is the best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Even if there's only 50% uptime on thief it does respectably in that scenario and in actuality ~60% of power chrono damage is from the player (even more so if you run Seize the Moment , it's ~77%). Phantasms (not clones) flank around 60-70% of the time anyway.

Doesnt matter if phantasms flank because they are not affected by mods from runes. only bare stats and some traits apply. thats why accuracy isnt good either and your scholar build used it. you want your phantasms to crit because mesmer has 2 damage mods that only work on crits. those are affecting your phantasms. 30% eagle vs 60% thief lets eagle runes win hard.

The only builds which need the precision and dont use thief/eagle are 1 weaver build and PI dh. virtues dh still uses thief. I dont see a problem with this. The effective scholar bonus is already closer to 4%-4.5% anyways.

According to who?Not Lucky Noobs, not Snowcrows, not discretize. Are we to take your word for it? That's as absurd as telling people without legendary armor or endless extractors to change their runes for every encounter for ~5% damage differences at best.

Do you mean my stated effective scholar bonus? arc logs that and i went through a couple of logs. highest was 4.88% and lowest 2.8%. Most of the time it was around 4.2%.If you mean flame legion runes. both sites mention those. you know you could just have different sets with different runes. raids and fractals reward you with countless ascended chests. what are you using them for?

An ideal scale back of Scholar rune would put it roughly on par with whatever is next best rather than making it an outright poor choice. If this had been the goal in mind in the 2018 rebalance we would not even have this discussion. Most casual people would think 2% health bonus is the same as before (8.3% crit and 2% health bonus is ~ 10%) if they don't pay attention to combat math.

There are simply no other power fero mod runes and why should there? a single straight forward damage option is better than having 10 options nobody uses because mathematically one is the best.

First of all it isn't "my build" , it is the output from an automated tool for a meta build. If you factor in 60% + of damage is from the player, thief runes still do respectably (within 2%). In addition, as I stated in the analysis it generally isn't worth it to run a mesmer without danger time (and without spotter on top of that) generally so that is only for illustrative purposes. "Win hard" is not an analysis in any scholastic environment, use numbers.

Superiority Complex doesn't affect Illusions. So unless you mean bleeding on crits from Sharper Images...

Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Infusion.7149" said:Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-weaverIt is also used in the benchmark sc video. Actually its more about hitbox size. sabetha and xera have such a small hitbox size that lightning storm becomes very weak and fire storm adds a lot of burning. those bosses have way smaller hitboxes than the smallest golem.If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

For raids and fractals weaver yes. for open world? no. not at all.Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

You dont have to invest into multiple sets of gear. you will drop them.A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

Only 4 power/ferocity runes exist. only 2 have damage mods. Buffing ogre might be better here instead of buffing precision granting runes to be comparable to scholar for classes that dont even need the precision.Or nerf classes so they wont critcap with just banners and fury. would just create a new "best everywhere" rune but it wouldnt be scholar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Which site mentions Flame Legion runes as a top pick on the actual build pages for weaver? Please link that page. Just because it is in the calculator doesn't mean it is recommended.

It is also used in the benchmark sc video. Actually its more about hitbox size. sabetha and xera have such a small hitbox size that lightning storm becomes very weak and fire storm adds a lot of burning. those bosses have way smaller hitboxes than the smallest golem.If your average / median (not sure what "most of the time" means in your wording) scholar bonus is 4.2% then it just reinforces Firebeard's argument that it is the superior choice for the majority of situations.

For raids and fractals weaver yes. for open world? no. not at all.Also if you are looking at this from the point of view from someone that has legendaries that is going to be different than your average player. Just because I have legendary gear shouldn't invalidate everyone that doesn't have it , plus plenty of people have alt accounts. There's loads of players still using exotics and even rares I found out. That's similar to telling players new to raids that investing into multiple sets of gear for it is going to be profitable when the ROI is going to be severely negative compared to open-world.

You dont have to invest into multiple sets of gear. you will drop them.A "single straightforward damage option" really ought not to be exceeding every other option by the entire amount of damage bonus on other runes even in extremely unfavored scenarios. That's basically what is happening on soulbeast , holo, daredevil, power DH, and likely power revenants even when you factor in your "most of the time" +4.2% (i.e. the entire bonus on ogre rune). Ultimately that is what Firebeard was trying to convey in a less eloquent manner I believe, although his target methodology of addressing it was probably to buff every other applicable rune that under-performs relative to Scholar.

Only 4 power/ferocity runes exist. only 2 have damage mods. Buffing ogre might be better here instead of buffing precision granting runes to be comparable to scholar for classes that dont even need the precision.Or nerf classes so they wont critcap with just banners and fury. would just create a new "best everywhere" rune but it wouldnt be scholar.

Well it's not the default build and neither is it the default rune (i.e. the top pick) ; weaver isn't commonly used anymore and in the video description on SC they even say if you use Fresh air you should probably be running condi weaver. They wrote the following: "Everywhere else btth quite clearly wins out - that being said, a lot of the bosses I listed here in favor of Fresh air generally are even more in favor of condition builds, so on the bosses that favor power, btth definitely wins more often than Fresh air." The only time power weaver is listed as a team comp recommended build by LN guild is on Slothasor with BttH.

Full disclosure: I have a vested interest in the toning down of Scholar rune because it's the most common power rune in WvW as well. Before you reply "there's no spotter or banners" , well there's keep bonuses and tower bonuses which add precision (+100 , +200 with Presence of the Keep) and people running heralds in squads have perma-fury.

People tend to share armor with runes between fractals/raids. Some even share it in WVW if they don't use WVW infusions. "Just dropping them" is not a viable solution. I would think that PVE-minded people would gear with banner in mind generally and not always expect spotter which means using precision food would make those setups viable in open-world also if they want to min-max in open-world.

Buffing ogre rune would not help the situation because you would be normalizing it to scholar rather than toning down scholar. In 2018 when there was the rune rebalance, it was scholar rune that was majorly changed and not ogre , which hasn't seen the same level of powercreep as +65 ferocity is ~4%. It would also have implications for WvW because a flat "always available" bonus is far easier to maintain and previously Golemancer runes were problematic when a full squad used them so anything with spawned mobs should be held to a lower expected value. There would be no buffing of precision runes if scholar rune was nerfed to a comparable level, you'd just shave the differences between the top rune and several other options.

Nerfing classes isn't the way to go, unless you mean the danger time damage bonus (rather than crit chance) on chronos which encourages chrono stacking similar to how stacked DHs with "Feel my Wrath" were deemed problematic in the past. Skirmishing soulbeast has already seen a toned down merged bonus so any changes would have to be extremely minor at best. Power DH (not Virtues which is gimmicky due to reliance on aegis) is in a respectable position due to burst only, holo has only DPS to bring to the table and not much else (A.E.D. ignoring mechanics + some CC are not enough to make it a staple), daredevil is mediocre right now when you can't run boon daredevil, power boon rev isn't widely used in PVE. Those classes would still be relatively intact with a minor scholar rune reduction, but cutting the crit chance would be a far larger hit to them and would have larger ramifications in terms of player complaints , reinvestment in runes and/or assassin's pieces, and associated negative feedback.

If you look at LN numbers rather than grind benches you get the following:

  • Power Chrono 42.5K --- scholar rune with danger time
  • Power Deadeye 40K --- scholar rune
  • Power Sword weaver BttH 38K --- scholar rune
  • Power Holo 37.9K --- scholar rune
  • Power Soulbeast Longbow 36.3K --- scholar rune
  • Power Axe Berserker 35.3K (banner is 32.45K) --- this isn't scholar rune but thief rune
  • Power Staff Daredevil 35K --- scholar rune
  • Power Sword DH 33.7K --- scholar rune
  • Power Reaper 32.8K --- scholar rune
  • StM Chrono presumably ~31K --- scholar rune with danger time
  • Power alac Renegade 22.6K --- scholar rune

There's essentially only one thing in common across the board and that is scholar rune across 8 classes. In fractals it's across 9 classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...