fractal consumables

[Janitsu.6284]

if you keep on disabling the consumables in fractals, for the love of god, make a proper tutorial about CCing and Exposed-debuff

consumables have always been a band-aid fix of what is prevalent in GW2; nothing of importance is taught to the new players and then they are incapable of doing even the simplest of tasks in group content

[Infusion.7149]

I agree, better to fix the problem rather than the symptom. If you look on LFG after the first nerf to CC consumables, the prevalance of 98+99 over all CMs increased massively (due to favoring condi build on top of the nerf to CC consumables).

100CM could also use a CC rebalance while they're at it because it has more defiance bar reliance than 98 / 99 and raids (when you account for 10 players instead of 5).1500 defiance per Sorrow is excessive for the majority of players ; while the defiance bar on Ai is 3200 (which is higher per player than Skorvald or Sloth or Samarog) it isn't an inherently lethal effect.

To put it into perspective an openworld boss has 180 defiance per player after 5 players and a typical dungeon or fractal boss has 600 defiance.

[CerealNumber.9348]

F for toy sword, I was using it as replacement for rifle and now I gotta get something else ?

[Henrik.7560]

the stupid thing is some of the consumables still work in fractals so we have to keep changing which ones we have every patch.

Can they just disable ALL consumables in fractals and reduce the extremely cancerous massive defiance bars? like 3.5k in the new 100cm is ridiculous for 5 people considering we have to cc adds as well.

It's getting nearly impossible to carry bad pugs without consumables, this is why people go toxic-elite mode with high KP / title requirements, because they can't carry with anets dumb changes.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Henrik.7560 said:the stupid thing is some of the consumables still work in fractals so we have to keep changing which ones we have every patch.

Can they just disable ALL consumables in fractals and reduce the extremely cancerous massive defiance bars? like 3.5k in the new 100cm is ridiculous for 5 people considering we have to cc adds as well.

It's getting nearly impossible to carry bad pugs without consumables, this is why people go toxic-elite mode with high KP / title requirements, because they can't carry with anets dumb changes.

Thats a good thing though. it shouldnt be possible to carry useless players through the hardest group content.

[Janitsu.6284]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Henrik.7560 said:the stupid thing is some of the consumables still work in fractals so we have to keep changing which ones we have every patch.

Can they just disable ALL consumables in fractals and reduce the extremely cancerous massive defiance bars? like 3.5k in the new 100cm is ridiculous for 5 people considering we have to cc adds as well.

It's getting nearly impossible to carry bad pugs without consumables, this is why people go toxic-elite mode with high KP / title requirements, because they can't carry with anets dumb changes.

Thats a good thing though. it shouldnt be possible to carry useless players through the hardest group content.

It would be a good thing if the majority (or even a slightly bigger minority) of the player base had any idea about PvE.

[Henrik.7560]

the breakbars are too big. I played alacren lately in 100CM and drop darkrazor, staff 5 and wooden plank (2000+ defiance units) and we still can't CC the boss before it spins with red circle attack and everyone has to dodge out.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Henrik.7560" said:the breakbars are too big. I played alacren lately in 100CM and drop darkrazor, staff 5 and wooden plank (2000+ defiance units) and we still can't CC the boss before it spins with red circle attack and everyone has to dodge out.

The boss in 100CM has a 3,200 defiance bar. (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar scroll down to the fractal specific defiance bars)

Th break bar is just fine IF all players of a 5 man squad decide to do something about it. The fact that 1 of the meta builds is able to do 2/3 of this break bar on its own is just gravy on top. All you are saying here is the other 4 people on your team were bad.

[Armen.1483]

The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it efficiently . My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

[Emberheart.8426]

@"Armen.1483" said:The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it efficiently . My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

This is purely an issue with class balance and fractal design. Not a good excuse to enable consumables. If anything cFb has needed shaves for a long time. condi burst that nobody else has, ridiculous support for a dps build and lets not forget that it's one of those "melee" builds. What I mean is that it's widely considered melee, but it has much more room to hit stuff while avoiding mechanics than something like weaver. Then the sanctuary cc is the gravy on top.

[Armen.1483]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it

efficiently

. My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

This is purely an issue with class balance and fractal design. Not a good excuse to enable consumables. If anything cFb has needed shaves for a long time. condi burst that nobody else has, ridiculous support for a dps build and lets not forget that it's one of those "melee" builds. What I mean is that it's widely considered melee, but it has much more room to hit stuff while avoiding mechanics than something like weaver. Then the sanctuary cc is the gravy on top.

Well, while I agree that firebrand is very strong, it is not the ONLY burst condi class out there. Condi warrior, condi weaver and ofc condi soulbeast have similar burst because they also do dps with burning and bleeding, which are bursty by nature. For CM 100 you could easily be on par or outdps fbs with those classes, though they don't have the same CC, aegis spam and invuln the aoes utility. Nerfing firebrand too much will make it useless, cutting a lil damage will not change anything in the META though, as it is a rework issue. And if sometime firebrand gets out of the CM100 meta, newer and casual players will suffer the most, which is not a good thing imo.

[lare.5129]

@Armen.1483 said:but that would make playing other classes there less punishing.so if someone take not cfb class, and someone ccept that class in party this is them responsibility. Let them think himslef what and where press. Nomal ppl use proper clases. Same in raid. Specific boss - specific classes, traits, and utils

[Emberheart.8426]

@Armen.1483 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Armen.1483 said:The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it

efficiently

. My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

This is purely an issue with class balance and fractal design. Not a good excuse to enable consumables. If anything cFb has needed shaves for a long time. condi burst that nobody else has, ridiculous support for a dps build and lets not forget that it's one of those "melee" builds. What I mean is that it's widely considered melee, but it has much more room to hit stuff while avoiding mechanics than something like weaver. Then the sanctuary cc is the gravy on top.

Well, while I agree that firebrand is very strong, it is not the

ONLY

burst condi class out there. Condi warrior, condi weaver and ofc condi soulbeast have similar burst because they also do dps with burning and bleeding, which are bursty by nature. For CM 100 you could easily be on par or outdps fbs with those classes, though they don't have the same CC, aegis spam and invuln the aoes utility. Nerfing firebrand too much will make it useless, cutting a lil damage will not change anything in the META though, as it is a rework issue. And if sometime firebrand gets out of the CM100 meta, newer and casual players will suffer the most, which is not a good thing imo.

I disagree with your assessment on condi burst. Those classes do have a bit of a condi burst, but it is in no way comparable to FB's. Don't get me wrong, they can still compete for total damage in 100CM, but it's not because of their burst. That fight simply allows their short ramp up to happen. How often exactly do you see other condi classes in the other CMs? You almost never see them, and that's because the quicker cFB burst matters more there.

Either way, the main issue with firebrand has always been more about the free support that they can get by giving up nothing. Resolve and liberation mantras are quite frankly completely busted on a dps build. Then they also have the tomes, which may not be as broken, but still provide more nice options like additional reflects and a heal multiplier. I do agree that some players will suffer if there are nerfs, but it is really not good design to have all of those players run the same class. Something needs to be done. Either there are nerfs, or all the dps builds should be bringing something good.

Personally, I think that no matter what anyone says, the end result will be nerfs in the pre-EoD balance patch. Anet have a track record of nerfing elite specs for purity of purpose, and to make room for the new ones. They already nerfed builds like condi reaper and power tempest in the pre-PoF balance, due to that philosophy.

[Armen.1483]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Armen.1483 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Armen.1483 said:The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it

efficiently

. My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

This is purely an issue with class balance and fractal design. Not a good excuse to enable consumables. If anything cFb has needed shaves for a long time. condi burst that nobody else has, ridiculous support for a dps build and lets not forget that it's one of those "melee" builds. What I mean is that it's widely considered melee, but it has much more room to hit stuff while avoiding mechanics than something like weaver. Then the sanctuary cc is the gravy on top.

Well, while I agree that firebrand is very strong, it is not the

ONLY

burst condi class out there. Condi warrior, condi weaver and ofc condi soulbeast have similar burst because they also do dps with burning and bleeding, which are bursty by nature. For CM 100 you could easily be on par or outdps fbs with those classes, though they don't have the same CC, aegis spam and invuln the aoes utility. Nerfing firebrand too much will make it useless, cutting a lil damage will not change anything in the META though, as it is a rework issue. And if sometime firebrand gets out of the CM100 meta, newer and casual players will suffer the most, which is not a good thing imo.

I disagree with your assessment on condi burst. Those classes do have a bit of a condi burst, but it is in no way comparable to FB's. Don't get me wrong, they can still compete for total damage in 100CM, but it's not because of their burst. That fight simply allows their short ramp up to happen. How often exactly do you see other condi classes in the other CMs? You almost never see them, and that's because the quicker cFB burst matters more there.

I guess you haven't tried it, it sounds like that firebrand's burst is better than other's because of the popularity (which is ofc the case for many situations cause of other factors), but it is not true. If there is no situation where we can prestack ashes of dust you get around 40-45 stacks of burning. Weaver does nearly as much burning + another 40ish bleeding which ends up in higher burst and does roughly 4k dps more of a burst than condi firebrand. If we take fractal cm100 scenario, pretty sure warrior with enough precision will outdps the CFB too even with prestacks. Same with ranger which has spirit dps buff to all his teammates which can't be calculated by arcdps compared to AoD. Firebrand's damage becomes really broken only when there are opportunities to reset F1s and ofc very easy to play + immense amount of utility which make it so popular in other fractals other than CM100. Yes condi weaver (and even tempest) are not popular in fractals, but they are better at dealing damage than firebrand. Soulbeast maybe not as much but not too far, and ofc you got a better version of power slb to choose from there, so we don't see much condi slb in other CMs for good. Same with berserker. To back up my statement here I invite you to compare the burst numbers of the mentioned classes on golem benchmark videos in youtube. I have personally tried them in fractals in my same static and can surely say that the burst difference is not very much different, some do a lil better, some worse, but it is pretty close, so clearly comparable.

Now why you see such good numbers on condi firebrand in other fractals ? Same reason you see berserkers outdpsing the traditional DPSes. Breakbars aren't broken soon enough and long phases favor linear graph dps players. Try condi weaver in those groups you'll see it is even better than firebrand.

We see firebrands and not weavers because everyone can play firebrand, but few can play weaver. And people who can play condi weaver are experienced enough to know that they shouldn't play condi on CM99 and will always choose a better option.

Popularity is not a really solid argument here for that reason. Firebrand is very strong, but it is not a damage issue. Easy to play means conistency which ends up in artificial better damage that it's counterparts. CM100 though shows that very well, CFB gets outdpsed quite much there by other classes I mentioned, but those other classes are worse to play because firebrand brings so much more than damage.

So I say it again, my whole point is about the accessibility. Firebrand nerfs are maybe needed, but it will affect only new players. No veteran player I know plays condi firebrand in non CM100 fractals seriously.

[Janitsu.6284]

@Armen.1483 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Armen.1483 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Armen.1483 said:The consumables while fun to use, were kinda gamebreaking too. It was making the game much easier. So it was a double edged sword. I am not quite sure what to think about that change up until now. For me only thing that changed was a tini bit of my gameplay.

However as you brought up the CM100 issue. Well everything would be ok, but I found myself asking in lfg only condi firebrands as dps for that boss. Problem is not that there is too much breakbars, but that not all classes can deal with it

efficiently

. My complaint is that I am locked into playing only condi firebrand there. Of course I am not saying you can't play anything else there and it is not only the Sanctuary that makes Firebrands so good there, but the fact that we see only firebrands there and 1 replacement with some scourge or something is considered something exotic and can even scare off people joing LFGs where they don't see a full firebrand group.

I think if the consumables were still present, playing full team of firebrands with sanctuaries +alac would still be the way to go, but that would make playing other classes there less punishing. So in my opinion the removal of CC consumables hurt the accessisibility of CM100 for all classes except for firebrand.

This is purely an issue with class balance and fractal design. Not a good excuse to enable consumables. If anything cFb has needed shaves for a long time. condi burst that nobody else has, ridiculous support for a dps build and lets not forget that it's one of those "melee" builds. What I mean is that it's widely considered melee, but it has much more room to hit stuff while avoiding mechanics than something like weaver. Then the sanctuary cc is the gravy on top.

Well, while I agree that firebrand is very strong, it is not the

ONLY

burst condi class out there. Condi warrior, condi weaver and ofc condi soulbeast have similar burst because they also do dps with burning and bleeding, which are bursty by nature. For CM 100 you could easily be on par or outdps fbs with those classes, though they don't have the same CC, aegis spam and invuln the aoes utility. Nerfing firebrand too much will make it useless, cutting a lil damage will not change anything in the META though, as it is a rework issue. And if sometime firebrand gets out of the CM100 meta, newer and casual players will suffer the most, which is not a good thing imo.

I disagree with your assessment on condi burst. Those classes do have a bit of a condi burst, but it is in no way comparable to FB's. Don't get me wrong, they can still compete for total damage in 100CM, but it's not because of their burst. That fight simply allows their short ramp up to happen. How often exactly do you see other condi classes in the other CMs? You almost never see them, and that's because the quicker cFB burst matters more there.

I guess you haven't tried it, it sounds like that firebrand's burst is better than other's because of the popularity (which is ofc the case for many situations cause of other factors), but it is not true. If there is no situation where we can prestack ashes of dust you get around 40-45 stacks of burning. Weaver does nearly as much burning + another 40ish bleeding which ends up in higher burst and does roughly 4k dps more of a burst than condi firebrand. If we take fractal cm100 scenario, pretty sure warrior with enough precision will outdps the CFB too even with prestacks. Same with ranger which has spirit dps buff to all his teammates which can't be calculated by arcdps compared to AoD. Firebrand's damage becomes really broken only when there are opportunities to reset F1s and ofc very easy to play + immense amount of utility which make it so popular in other fractals other than CM100. Yes condi weaver (and even tempest) are not popular in fractals, but they are better at dealing damage than firebrand. Soulbeast maybe not as much but not too far, and ofc you got a better version of power slb to choose from there, so we don't see much condi slb in other CMs for good. Same with berserker. To back up my statement here I invite you to compare the burst numbers of the mentioned classes on golem benchmark videos in youtube. I have personally tried them in fractals in my same static and can surely say that the burst difference is not very much different, some do a lil better, some worse, but it is pretty close, so clearly comparable.

Now why you see such good numbers on condi firebrand in other fractals ? Same reason you see berserkers outdpsing the traditional DPSes. Breakbars aren't broken soon enough and long phases favor linear graph dps players. Try condi weaver in those groups you'll see it is even better than firebrand.

We see firebrands and not weavers because everyone can play firebrand, but few can play weaver. And people who can play condi weaver are experienced enough to know that they shouldn't play condi on CM99 and will always choose a better option.

Popularity is not a really solid argument here for that reason. Firebrand is very strong, but it is not a damage issue. Easy to play means conistency which ends up in artificial better damage that it's counterparts. CM100 though shows that very well, CFB gets outdpsed quite much there by other classes I mentioned, but those other classes are worse to play because firebrand brings so much more than damage.

So I say it again, my whole point is about the accessibility. Firebrand nerfs are maybe needed, but it will affect only new players. No veteran player I know plays condi firebrand in non CM100 fractals seriously.

You are only comparing pure damage here but you are ignoring what the class brings and what it needs. Firebrand is self-sustained for might, fury and quickness with ease while blocking 1/3rd of all the damage skills coming their way with the hilarious amount of blocks it can provide. It can also heal, reflect and do quite a noticeable amount of CC with ease. It has pulls, it has AoE and single target damage. The targets can be moving a lot and firebrand can apply their burns with relatively OK numbers. Condi Weaver is bad in 100 CM simply due to the fact that Ai moves around a lot and doesn't stay in fire fields.

Also regarding your "veteran player" comment; I could name people with records in fractals that play condi Firebrand seriously in T4s on almost a daily basis due to how much easier and safer it is to the alternatives and how well it works across the board.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Armen.1483You completely forgot to factor in tome resets. Its insane in some fractals. During some encounters you spend more time in your tome than on your weapon set. Also weaver needs weave self for burst which has a very long cd. Fb just needs the tome which resets on each kill.

[Armen.1483]

@Janitsu.6284 said:You are only comparing pure damage here but you are ignoring what the class brings and what it needs.

@Nephalem.8921 said:You completely forgot to factor in tome resets. Its insane in some fractals. During some encounters you spend more time in your tome than on your weapon set. Also weaver needs weave self for burst which has a very long cd. Fb just needs the tome which resets on each kill.

Guys please read what you are commenting about, I have mentioned both before several times. We were talking about damage comparison. My whole point was that it is not damage that makes firebrand so good.

@Armen.1483Firebrand's damage becomes really broken only when there are opportunities to reset F1s and ofc very easy to play + immense amount of utility which make it so popular in other fractals other than CM100.