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Nerf blob sustain.


Caedmon.6798

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they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...

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@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has

  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault! Because Purity Of Purpose.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that dominate zerg support.

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Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

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Game is too far powercrept to fix it now.

Blobbing is always going to form a meta people don't enjoy. The problem isn't so much the meta as it is that it goes for so long without changing. People can deal with a dumb meta for a couple months, like full on pirate ship for example. But when it's the same things for as long as it has been, it gets stale. Same problem in PvP.

There are a lot of imbalances and I AM NOT saying WvW metas (roam, zerg, small scale, etc.) are fine and dandy, but it's also in an okay spot compared to some of the previous metas.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

We have a winner.

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@"Hannelore.8153" u do realize that this was kinda what many AoE has been? target caps got reduced because apparently less server traffic by that

problem we have here, defending would be even easier with this than it is yet. a proper sieged up keep is hard to sustain (unless it isn't defended at all)


i personally think the old damage is better since all classes are designed on this "fast combat" ... currently it is not extremly fast, areadamage need to be stacked to deal the "real" damage. in good blobfights that takes several pushes.

now if we nerf all sustain, it'd be just more pirateship... i really don't want a single nerf on sustain for groupbased fights. Anet is free to nerf the personal sustain stuff of classes, but group supporters need their role to be alive. AoE dps and sustain are what makes the base core of Wvw.


also, we might again remember that EoD will come out this year, in some months (?) ... nerfing everything to cruel would just make the new elite specs too brokenly storng (and i have no doubt that they will be pretty good)

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:Target caps should be doubled on offensive skills which would literally half the "spread" of damage in zergs. By doing that and leaving the number of targets for support skills at five after the recent changes, it'd give smaller groups the advantage.

The problem with building a game around using siege for zergbusting is they can just build a balli and destroy it in 5sec, and a zerg will always have an advantage at building siege due to increasing builders, blueprints and supplies, so players need to be capable of their own "siege warfare". I've seen this done in other RvR games and it does work.

In the early days we somewhat had this with skills like Meteor Shower, but hard nerfs ruined those tactics.

Yes please. I would love to make a blob of reapers and tempests and just one shot shout the stupid clouds dead whilst they think they can wipe my parties with actual sustain out because they can hit more people.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has
  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault!
Because Purity Of Purpose
.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that
dominate
zerg support.

What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.

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@hunkamania.7561 because several things got nerfed quite hard yet. necros got big nerfs and some people called them for dead when those nerfs hit... class is still good tho.

and again, anything should be nerfed, but not group-skills. all the singletarget stuff can be tuned down. ranger barrage may be nerfed, since it has a unfair angle - line of sight not needed for a big range aoe is kinda weird, esp since ele doesn't get the same there. even with mortarkit engi u need to do special positioning to get a fair angle.

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@hunkamania.7561 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has
  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault!
Because Purity Of Purpose
.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that
dominate
zerg support.

What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has
  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault!
Because Purity Of Purpose
.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that
dominate
zerg support.

What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.

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Do you remember when ArenaNet commented on data from PvE, pointing out that experienced players did 10x the damage of inexperienced players? Something similar applies to WvW and not just in regard to damage done. The groups that are the best at whatever the current meta is were better than you at whatever the meta was before or what it would come to be with changes that you suggest.

It may sound cold but I am actually trying to help out by pointing that out. There are far too many self-delusional complaints here these days as the forums are full of nabs and tower heroes. You can't really make suggestions that even out the difference in ability or experience. Even if you could that would be no fun as it would imply a hyper simplification of the game. Instead, if you want an adequate understanding of whether the game is too tanky or too bursty, look at what those groups that you find oppressive are capable of doing to each other. That should give you a good idea of what is possible or not or exactly how tanky or bursty the meta is. Do they tank each other forever or just you? Do they one-push each other or just you?

Also, consider that the behaviour of the "good" groups tend to work in the reverse of how you believe it to work. When the meta is bursty, the "good" groups look to optimize survival. When the meta is tanky the "good" groups look to optimize effective damage. If the balance is leaning towards the tanky it rewards playing aggressively coordinated. Many "good" groups find that more fun, when aggression is challenging and rewarded. They find it less fun when cautiousness is challenging and rewarded. They will get rewarded either way though.

Let's look at some trends right now that I think most of you here have not noticed already:

  • Some good groups have stopped using Minstrel Firebrands (Yes, you read that right)
  • Some good groups have begun using high-damage flex-distance builds again, like Berserkers (Yes, melee damage, at least in part)
  • Some good groups have begun using things like Thieves and Rangers even on maps and when larger than 15 (Yes, not just GvG)

These are just some of the more popular risk-rewarding opts popping up here and there now (with damage given more value) and may affect future meta.

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Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about withhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has
  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault!
Because Purity Of Purpose
.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that
dominate
zerg support.

What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.And what I said earlier was
"what should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes"
. Which is again why its silly to focus on purity of purpose and engineer. Yes it includes purity of purpose. They could delete pop for all I care. But need to happen for
all
classes. The reason meta boonballs are practically immune isnt at all because of purity of purpose, its because AoE boons is pumped into the zerg from other classes like a firehose gone rouge.

Comparing the scourge too since the meta scourge traits a baby version of pop, where they remove a condition and grant might to allies. Why does that exist? Why does it remove a condition and grant might? Just another example of Anets machinegun design to skills - a skill cant possibly do 1 thing, it has to do 2 or 3 or 4 and preferably be combined with another trait to do 5. This is the core flaw of GW2 combat and has been since they powercreeped HoT to hell.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hunkamania.7561 said:they got 50 million engis in every blob it seems converting any condi into ezpz boons. They nerfed all the dps and didn't touch engi that has
  • ezpz no skill stealth
  • boons for free by just condi clearing
  • best healer by a country mile
  • 80%-90% superspeed uptime

i'm sure I missed some things but hitting a blob feels like hitting a brick wall these days is all i'm saying...Yet the blob that wins is often the one that has 50 million necros so that they can bomb the enemy blob into oblivion in seconds.

Even if they deleted the scrapper, you would either see:A ) More AoE healing, more stab and boons, about as much stealth (couple more mesmers, a portion of scrappers would be replaced by tempests again and others would be firebrands)B ) More condi damage (with less cleansing sustain, zergs would go more red carpet of death).

Yay...?

What should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes. Add a blanket nerf to all passive and basic AoE healing as well and instead strengthen combo fields, like how it was in GW2 vanilla.

But no. It's the eeeeeeevil scrappers fault!
Because Purity Of Purpose
.

Lets just also completely ignore the kitten firebrand that
dominate
zerg support.

What's necro's have to do with with the facts i stated? you cannot tell me that engi isn't overtuned atm. It got 0 nerfs when it was the top tier secondary support now it's not even close.

Guardian heals are nerfed to the ground my guy. It's mostly a boon bot atm.And yet the firebrand is still the top tier primary support, is it not?

Also, 0 nerfs? The competetive split absolutely gutted many traits. Healing modifiers got cut in half. Yes that includes purity of purpose, which saw a 50-75% reduction in boon durations. And yet the scrapper is more common than ever. This alone should tell you it is a global problem. Even deleting it would do nothing, other classes pick up the slack because they are equally as strong or stronger.Purity of Purpose is a problem. Even when the boons it creates have only a 1 second base duration, the group mechanic of this trait is too strong.

Scourge has a similar mechanic, but it works only on the scourge. Image how ridiculous scourge would be if it could share the effect of Feed from Corruption with its group (even at reduced durations).

Long story short: Purity of Purpose should just work for the engineer itself, but not for the group. The boon durations should increase slightly as a compensation of course.And what I said earlier was
"what should happen is blanket nerf on AoE boons and boon duration for all classes, all sigils, all runes"
. Which is again why its silly to focus on purity of purpose and engineer. Yes it includes purity of purpose. But need to happen for
all
classes.You realize they did exactly that with the 2020 rebalance initiative, right? There are some buttons hardly worth pushing now and while the rebalance has made sure more stat-combinations see use, some stat-combinations did take quite a dive. Yet, stat-wise still a positive trade (ie. toughness/concentration).@God.2708 said:Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?Overall, the only real issue with PoP is that conversion and corruption overall has become a fair bit too common, making sure the boons and conditions do not leave the cycle as quick as they did back in vanilla. Instead they ping back and forth under new sources of application. I think there are plenty of positives to gain from making both corruption and conversion less common, leaving them as a very rare improved version of simple application, rip and cleanse that can remain more as is.

On the flipside, I don't think that is the reason people keep complaining about PoP though. I think PoP is frequently brought up because the forums are full of people who think a stale 1200-range control war is going to make them comparatively better to players or groups who are in fact better than them. They just want easy bags clouding or hiding behind others and want to feel rewarded for that type of gameplay. They don't realize that people will adapt and no one will offer to be a meatshield under those conditions. The hate is more on groups being organized than PoP.

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@"God.2708" said:Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about withhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inversion_Enzyme and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

One trait dictating whether or not Condition builds can reasonably contribute to large scale fights seems like it might be a bit strong to me.

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@Shroud.2307 said:

@"God.2708" said:Does anyone actually have any arguments about PoP being overtuned/overpowered? Or is 'People get boons if you cure their conditions' all you've really got?

The only thing I really see being problematic is the fact chill gets converted to alacrity, which allows the scrapper to get an okay uptime of a boon it generally should not get access to. Chill is also not nearly as uncommon as it should be, and something as simple as a tempest support putting out frost aura occasionally allows a squad to gain way more alacrity than it should (which acts as an inadvertent nerf to the tempest too).

And possibly that immobilize gets converted to resistance, but resistance does not get converted to immobilize (please do not bring that back).

Keep in mind purity of purpose use to exist on e-gun cleanses only (which is 60% of a scrappers cleanses anyway) long before PoP came about with
and scrappers still didn't get used as supports. It started getting looked at in the May 2018 update when MDF got a huge buff, Med kit got reworked, and defense field applied stability. That was 3 months where PoP existed and scrappers were 'meh'. They became staple in start of 2019 with the gyro/superspeed rework (compounded by the anti-toxin rune silliness). So I remain skeptical that PoP is in any way a problem beyond the resistance/alacrity access it gives scrappers (which is a small acceptable change that shouldn't be 'hard' to implement)

One trait dictating whether or not Condition builds can reasonably contribute to large scale fights seems like it might be a bit strong to me.The issue with measuring that lies in conditions' own mechanics. They stack from multiple sources so the balance of power relative condi needs to be sampled from groups dedicated into either damage profile. Power still benefits from control conditions so even a very skewered power meta will have an abundance of cleanses. Most people overlook that when they consider conditions ability to scale up to content levels. Conditions also makes alot of other factors pointless outside of the control war. That is sure to make the developers err on the side of caution. If you remember the epi meta for example. If people want that to change they will have to nerf down the condition caps by alot because conditions still has the ability to tick for many times a HP-pool / tick when the caps are hit. Power is simply more common because it is easier to organize, use in unorganized conditions and less prone to be all or nothing.

Some groups use condis at larger scale than typical 5-10 man roaming/busting comps though and it does have its own interesting tactical factors. It's one of those things in the game that can do alot more things than most people are aware of since it is (has to be) strongly written off by typical pickup authorities.

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it's all Rock-Paper-Scissors :) If you have a condi-heavy enemy, you need a lot of condi-conversion. If you have a high-boon-sustain blob, you need lots of strips / corrupt. Obv if you lack numbers neither is gonna work adequately, but otherwise if you have the right composition you can fight the corresponding enemy.

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