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What role schold new engi elite spec have ?


Noah Salazar.5430

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@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:

How is scrapper a healer?
Scrapper aslo give might to team (blast gyro) what is kinda healer job

Yeah no. That's not written anywhere and it's never been set in stone.

I don't necessarily mind a "support" spec but boons right now aren't scarce enough and if you want another clownish boon-farting concept you might as well jump on Guardian/Mesmer/Rev instead of wasting an Engi spec slot that would kind of overlap with Scrapper currently struggling to exist beyond support.

There's nothing I expect from said spec but god that would be boring if it was that one-dimensional.

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@MrForz.1953 said:

@"Noah Salazar.5430" said:
How is scrapper a healer?
Scrapper aslo give might to team (blast gyro) what is kinda healer job

Yeah no. That's not written anywhere and it's never been set in stone.

I don't necessarily mind a "support" spec but boons right now aren't scarce enough and if you want another clownish boon-farting concept you might as well jump on Guardian/Mesmer/Rev instead of wasting an Engi spec slot that would kind of overlap with Scrapper currently struggling to exist beyond support.

There's nothing I expect from said spec but god that would be boring if it was that one-dimensional.

Who says that is has to be one dimensional?

Scourge, for example, is a supportive elite spec for necromancer. It is not one dimensional, since it focuses on barrier application as well as having some boon support and also enhancing the necromancer's condition damage.

If people say that they expect a boon support elite spec, that doesn't mean it is literally all they do. Most likely our next elite spec will enhance our condition damage as well, considering that both elite specs so far have been power based and engineer is lacking in condition damage heavily.The only utility skills providing condition damage for us are kits (hence why you run 3 kits in a condition damage build). Our condition weapon (pistol) pretty much sucks rn.We basically just have 1 real condition damage trait line, firearms.

So it is to be expected that we get condition damage from the next elite spec anyway. However, I still think the main focus should be a boon support, since this is what is holding back engineer to become a meta healer for high end PvE content like fractals, strike missions and raids.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Pretty much. A combat mech to pilot and kick butt in. This is actually a pretty classic concept and people still like it. I'm not against something more creative. But I'm banking on a classic concept with plenty of inspiration to draw on rather than a much more original concept that has a much higher chance to fail.

What about the other points I provided....It doesn't add anything new to the game, we already piloted a mecha suit endless times, both in the story and in stuff like WvW.Also the thing about reusing the Asura aesthetic after holosmith again.

I understand that it kinda is a power fantasy for some engineer players to pilot such a thing.... but you already can. Just use the Asura racials if it's really about that fantasy, as I said.

The asura racial is very bad to the point where nobody uses it and it doesn't utilize even a fraction of the potential. The reason why a piloted mech is currently the leading suggestion is because people want it done right, and have it be a reliable main feature, rather than a lengthy cooldown for a terribad, clunky, unwieldy ugly suit of junk.

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@"Oxstar.7643" said:

The asura racial is very bad to the point where nobody uses it and it doesn't utilize even a fraction of the potential. The reason why a piloted mech is currently the leading suggestion is because people want it done right, and have it be a reliable main feature, rather than a lengthy cooldown for a terribad, clunky, unwieldy ugly suit of junk.

So basically this suggestion boils down to "Yes, I want to explore something that is already in the game again, because I think it is not implemented properly".Which feeds into one of my points: it provides nothing new. It is just rebuilding something that is already in the game, which would take out alot of the excitement about it for me.

So, I would pay to get a stronger version of something I already have. Hard pass for me and actually a reason not to consider to buy this expansion.Then there is also still the point about the aesthetics you didn't mention at all still: we already have an elite spec with heavy Asuran flair, holosmith. It was the very last elite spec we got. A golem mecha suit will most definitely also use the Asuran aesthetic, since this kind of technology just makes the most sense with Asuran tech in the lore.

Also do you have any data about this being "the leading suggestion"? I see it mentioned alot, but would still not consider this to be the leading suggestion. And that doesn't mean it wouldn't be bad for the game, even if it would be the leading one... I see AI minions suggested for engineer a ton and still have to argue to people why this would just be a terrible idea.

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@Yasai.3549 said:Why not Ranged Power DPS?

Both elite specs we had so far are heavily skewed towards power damage already.The next elite spec should utilise conditions for their damage output.

Especially if we consider that basically all condition damage engineer has currently is located on kits, forcing you to play with 3 kits (bomb, flamethrower, grenade) for the condi dps playstyle.

Scrapper and holosmith brought alternatives to kits for engineer in power builds. Skills like shredder gyro and laserdisk are strong enough to warrant using an utility slot for them if your goal is to deal power damage.It would be great if we could get skills which do the same for condi builds.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Why not Ranged Power DPS?

Both elite specs we had so far are heavily skewed towards power damage already.The next elite spec should utilise conditions for their damage output.Yea but Ranged.Engi has really meh Ranged capabilities.Grenades and Mortars are both bad to use.Rifle got nerfed.Elixir Gun is more Condi than Power.Pistol.... lol.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:Yea but Ranged.Engi has really meh Ranged capabilities.Grenades and Mortars are both bad to use.Rifle got nerfed.Elixir Gun is more Condi than Power.Pistol.... lol.

It is true that our ranged capabilities are really meh right now.But I get the feeling that we might get a melee condition weapon this time (yes, a third melee elite spec weapon...).

Pistols are bad right now and need help, no one can deny that. But they kinda are supposed to fill the "ranged condition weapon" for engineer.While grenades feel bad to use because of the ground targeting that is constantly required for them, they seem to perform well at least as ranged weapons. Remember people being up in arms because of the infamous "grenade holo"?

Meanwhile we don't have anything that could get interpreted as a melee condi weapon right now. The closest we have to that is bomb kit, but it is actually a mixed damage kit. The toolbelt and auto attack pack quite a punch in power damage, even if fire bomb is a really strong condi skill.I could image that Anet wants to change this and give us a melee condi weapon...

Note: I don't say this is what should happen, but I can easily see this happening as Anet's train of thought.

Edit: And thinking about it, if they really go for a support elite spec to enable us as healers and add condi damage to it, then a melee weapon could synergise better with the intended playstyle eventually. Healing engineers want to be close to their allies because of medical dispersion field and med kit, which is short ranged on the healing auto attack. A melee supportive weapon with conditions would probably be better utilised in these scenarios.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Oxstar.7643" said:

The asura racial is very bad to the point where nobody uses it and it doesn't utilize even a fraction of the potential. The reason why a piloted mech is currently the leading suggestion is because people want it done right, and have it be a reliable main feature, rather than a lengthy cooldown for a terribad, clunky, unwieldy ugly suit of junk.

So basically this suggestion boils down to "Yes, I want to explore something that is already in the game again, because I think it is not implemented properly".Which feeds into one of my points: it provides nothing new. It is just rebuilding something that is already in the game, which would take out alot of the excitement about it for me.

So, I would pay to get a stronger version of something I already have. Hard pass for me and actually a reason not to consider to buy this expansion.Then there is also still the point about the aesthetics you didn't mention at all still: we already have an elite spec with heavy Asuran flair, holosmith. It was the very last elite spec we got. A golem mecha suit will most definitely also use the Asuran aesthetic, since this kind of technology just makes the most sense with Asuran tech in the lore.

Also do you have any data about this being "the leading suggestion"? I see it mentioned alot, but would still not consider this to be the leading suggestion. And that doesn't mean it wouldn't be bad for the game, even if it would be the leading one... I see AI minions suggested for engineer a ton and still have to argue to people why this would just be a terrible idea.

To be short: Yes, I AM asking for them to expand upon a concept that is currently a weak racial nobody uses into a full and worthy elite specc. And that won't change, thank you. And when I say leading suggestion, I obviously meant out of the ones in the poll of this thread. Out of those who have voted, the majority thus far wants this. As for the aesthetics, those can be anything. You're actually the only one here thinking it has to be asuran. And, where does it say holosmith is asuran tech? I've never seen them make solid weapons out of light, have you?

Also please no condition speccs, the game is already saturated with condition builds. That would unironically be LESS creative than a well executed piloted mech concept. There is already a very strong condition build with mid to melee range for holosmith, and it's one of the top thread. No need to invent a new elite specc out of something we already have, and have done very well.

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@Oxstar.7643 said:

To be short: Yes, I AM asking for them to expand upon a concept that is currently a weak racial nobody uses into a full and worthy elite specc. And that won't change, thank you.

Fair enough, I never said you can't want that. I just voice my own opinion that I think this wouldn't be a good direction for the engineer, since it is just rebuilding stuff that we already know. And especially something we already experienced ourselves, like I said, there are many story instances in which you pilot a suit. Getting something that is really new thematically would be the more exciting option in my opinion.

As for the aesthetics, those can be anything. You're actually the only one here thinking it has to be asuran.

In the lore, there are 2 precedence cases for mecha suits so far: mining suits from the Dredge and the golem suits from the Asura.From a lore point of view, these 2 options are the most logical for a mecha suit elite spec.And both share aesthetic designs with the elite specs we have so far.

Dredge mining suits share design space with the scrapper, being made out of repurposed scrap metal.Asuran golem suits would most likely end up with the Asuran design trademarks, which were already used for holosmith.

And, where does it say holosmith is asuran tech? I've never seen them make solid weapons out of light, have you?

Fueki already mentioned examples, yes, holomancy is primarily an Asuran technology. The lore explanation for holosmith says that it uses Zephyrite crystals and that humans invented the photonforge, but I am talking about aesthetics here.

By Anet's very own statement: they have used Asuran design for the holosmith.

Also please no condition speccs, the game is already saturated with condition builds. That would unironically be LESS creative than a well executed piloted mech concept. There is already a very strong condition build with mid to melee range for holosmith, and it's one of the top thread. No need to invent a new elite specc out of something we already have, and have done very well.

I think it is inevitable at this point that our next elite spec weapon will give us condition damage. Both our last 2 elite spec weapons are pure power weapons. Wouldn't make much sense to give us a third power weapon for an elite spec when engineer to this point still just has 1 condition weapon (pistol).

I don't think that the primary focus of the spec will be condition damage, tho. I think it will be a support spec (like scourge or druid), which will enhance the condi damage some for our class (scourge did the same for necromancer).

It would also be highly welcomed to have some condition damage utility skills which are not kits. There is a condition damage build for holosmith, but it is still hard locked to pick 3 kits (bomb, grenade, flamethrower), since all our condition damage comes from kits.Holosmith and scrapper gave engineer some other utility skills we can pick for power damage, so we are no longer hard forced to pick 3 kits for a power damage build. I think the next elite spec should do the same for condition builds.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Went with the party support option. It's not what I personally dream of, but it's probably what's best for the game right now. Break up that Firebrand/Chronomancer/Renegade oligopoly, especially since guardians, mesmers, and revenants might want to get to use their new elite specialisations.

Just out of interest: what do you personally dream of?

I think we've discussed previously, but:

Long-range sniping weapon, and electricity theme, similar to the various tech-based lightning rods and rifles you have floating around in so many hearts and dynamic events. Essentially, something that can really fill the hole in the heart left by GW1 air elementalist. GW2 elementalists don't and really can't - their design is based around attunement-swapping through multiple elements. Beyond that, mesmer has some aesthetics in common, but engineer is probably the most likely to really pull off that lightning-crazy feel. We've got bits of it in core engineer and scrapper, but in core engineer it's basically Static Discharge and Static Shot (and you usually don't want to try to run both due to one being power-based and the other being condition) and if you go to scrapper hammer and utilities, it becomes a close-in brawler with about as much in common with what I have in mind as fresh air dagger tempests do.

But for the time being, a support spec, alchemy-themed or otherwise, is more important.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think we've discussed previously, but:

Long-range sniping weapon, and electricity theme, similar to the various tech-based lightning rods and rifles you have floating around in so many hearts and dynamic events. Essentially, something that can really fill the hole in the heart left by GW1 air elementalist. GW2 elementalists don't and really can't - their design is based around attunement-swapping through multiple elements. Beyond that, mesmer has some aesthetics in common, but engineer is probably the most likely to really pull off that lightning-crazy feel. We've got bits of it in core engineer and scrapper, but in core engineer it's basically Static Discharge and Static Shot (and you usually don't want to try to run both due to one being power-based and the other being condition) and if you go to scrapper hammer and utilities, it becomes a close-in brawler with about as much in common with what I have in mind as fresh air dagger tempests do.

But for the time being, a support spec, alchemy-themed or otherwise, is more important.

Ah yes, I remember that discussion.

Still think that revenant also is a valid candidate for this "lightning crazy" theme you envision.This class is thematically already built on the ritualist from guild wars 1, which was the second "lightning heavy" caster in that game alongside the elementalist.Giving a revenant spec with powers borrowed from a legend who was wielding lightning seems not too farfetched in my opinion.

And even if we don't go for the "ritualist" theme, there are other legends to draw inspiration from. A legendary Naga stance, for example, was brought up recently in some discussions, mostly about Hanasha Coralfin, who was a Naga priestress with major influence.Naga in general were using water and air magic in guild wars 1, especially attacks based on lightning were common.

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I want to deal with mechs. Let me create stuff that last. Heck, give me the option to build barricades/obstacles that damage enemies and knock them back, block projectiles and the like. Let me create golems or robots that can be sic-ed on enemies to blow up. Engineer has always been a class that incorporate other classes ideas and roles but not as well, an elite spec to reflect it would be nice. As for the weapon, staff or mace would do the trick. If staff, make it something like a rod and give it some area support for mechanized units for example so that whatever you create, you can support. If mace, make it a one handed -hammer- for one, because we dont really have many maces that use the warhammer design, make it heavy on the stun and debuff maybe.

Briefly put, I want an engineer that works with engines. Scrapper came close to that, but ended up turning into more of a close combat monster that does everything on his own. Engineer would work very well as a summoning class. Dethrone Necros for a bit.

Or make turrets functional again.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

It would also be highly welcomed to have some condition damage utility skills which are not kits. There is a condition damage build for holosmith, but it is still hard locked to pick 3 kits (bomb, grenade, flamethrower), since all our condition damage comes from kits.Holosmith and scrapper gave engineer some other utility skills we can pick for power damage, so we are no longer hard forced to pick 3 kits for a power damage build. I think the next elite spec should do the same for condition builds.

No? The current condition build for holosmith on the board uses ONE kit, flamethrower. The other two is for elixir B, for might, fury, and retaliation, and hard light arena, for more fury and some momentary tanking. Also, kits is a core mechanic of the class, I'm not sure why people keeps asking for anything that does away with it.Then again, turrets was supposed to also be a core mechanic and they happily did away with that.

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idk i just want a ranged well/non projectile aoe spamming spec or something so 90% of the engineer wasnt passively countered in WVW cuz of anti projectile hateso i guess i'd go with some support staff thing

or buff them turrets and give us mechs and stuff and give us a Mechanist spec

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@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Some sort of support role for sure.

Not sure what weapon, but Engi has gotten two melee weapons back to back, so why not a new ranged weapon. Bring up either staff or scepter, and sling some chemicals around.

That said mechs and machine guns do in fact go brrr

If we're aiming for staff, it might make more sense for the elite spec to be sound-themed instead of alchemy-themed, using the staff as some sort of tuning fork, resembling something like this staff skin already in the game. But I'll be happy with anything as long as it's not melee power DPS (although hammer is unironically the best ranged weapon that engineer has, since its one ranged skill is significantly stronger than anything on rifle at that range).

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@"Kodama.6453" said:Who says that is has to be one dimensional?

Scourge, for example, is a supportive elite spec for necromancer. It is not one dimensional, since it focuses on barrier application as well as having some boon support and also enhancing the necromancer's condition damage.

If people say that they expect a boon support elite spec, that doesn't mean it is literally all they do. Most likely our next elite spec will enhance our condition damage as well, considering that both elite specs so far have been power based and engineer is lacking in condition damage heavily.

Here's the thing: Scourge provides some boon support. The poll literally says "Support that buff alac/quickness to team (+might ofc)" which is what's commonly asked of raids. That asks for a free pass and possibly get ahead of other meta supports by doing what they do but better and with Engineer stamped on it, that screams one dimensional on that goal.

And since we're talking boons, let's talk Elixirs: One of my solo (and PvP to an extent) builds uses diviner gear, Holosmith and chugs Elixir H, B and U like an addict. If their tossed version was any decent at applying the key boons to the team one wouldn't need to waste a spec slot around boons and boon vomiting could be a viable thing even on core.

Same for the med kit, it could simply be slightly better at what it does outside WvW and you'd have your healer base. The specs would be simply be layers of flavors veiling all that instead of being the elevator from zero to meta.

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@Oxstar.7643 said:Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

Mechanically, they're not. Weapons don't require you to give up a utility slot.But even if we include them, as others have said they're not particularly good to use. If they're not traited, they move slowly, and they are all projectile based, meaning they're heavily countered in blob fights. Not to mention that they're all ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

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@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@"Oxstar.7643" said:Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

Mechanically, they're not. Weapons don't require you to give up a utility slot.But even if we include them, as others have said they're not particularly good to use. If they're not traited, they move slowly, and they are all projectile based, meaning they're heavily countered in blob fights. Not to mention that they're all ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

Traiting for the weapons you want to use. Yes indeed, this is what happens in this game. Also, I'm tired of this give up a utility slot for a weapons "argument".Engineer is a class that is about combining various weapons skills from both your kits and weapons into chains appropriate for the situation at hand.Kits are not MEANT to be a replacement for your regular weapons. They are supposed to provide you with additional flexibility and utility, which they do well.If you want to swap to a mode which you can just stay in and use the same skills then play elementalist instead, although weaver actually operates on the same line of thinking.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I think we've discussed previously, but:

Long-range sniping weapon, and electricity theme, similar to the various tech-based lightning rods and rifles you have floating around in so many hearts and dynamic events. Essentially, something that can really fill the hole in the heart left by GW1 air elementalist. GW2 elementalists don't and really
can't
- their design is based around attunement-swapping through multiple elements. Beyond that, mesmer has some aesthetics in common, but engineer is probably the most likely to really pull off that lightning-crazy feel. We've got bits of it in core engineer and scrapper, but in core engineer it's basically Static Discharge and Static Shot (and you usually don't want to try to run both due to one being power-based and the other being condition) and if you go to scrapper hammer and utilities, it becomes a close-in brawler with about as much in common with what I have in mind as fresh air dagger tempests do.

But for the time being, a support spec, alchemy-themed or otherwise, is more important.

Ah yes, I remember that discussion.

Still think that revenant also is a valid candidate for this "lightning crazy" theme you envision.This class is thematically already built on the ritualist from guild wars 1, which was the second "lightning heavy" caster in that game alongside the elementalist.Giving a revenant spec with powers borrowed from a legend who was wielding lightning seems not too farfetched in my opinion.

And even if we don't go for the "ritualist" theme, there are other legends to draw inspiration from. A legendary Naga stance, for example, was brought up recently in some discussions, mostly about Hanasha Coralfin, who was a Naga priestress with major influence.Naga in general were using water and air magic in guild wars 1, especially attacks based on lightning were common.

Yes and no. As I think has also already discussed before, I don't think ArenaNet's intention with Revenant is to just give it a bucketload of "run this if you really want to play GW1 ritualist again" elites. It has its own theme and design principles. Renegade has pretty much already done that. Revenant should do its own thing from here on.

Engineer is, in fact, pretty explicitly the successor to the ritualist playstyle (if anything, it's the other way around: the purpose of ritualist was to give an engineer playstyle in a low-tech setting). And there's plenty of precedent for technological devices producing long-range electric discharges, with a couple of examples even being found among the charr, and some cases already being found in the engineer's kit.

But this probably isn't the thread for discussing either in depth.

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