What role schold new engi elite spec have ?

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

Mechanically, they're not. Weapons don't require you to give up a utility slot.But even if we include them, as others have said they're not particularly good to use. If they're not traited, they move slowly, and they are all projectile based, meaning they're heavily countered in blob fights. Not to mention that they're all ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

Traiting for the weapons you want to use. Yes indeed, this is what happens in this game. Also, I'm tired of this give up a utility slot for a weapons "argument".

Engineer is a class that is about combining various weapons skills from both your kits and weapons into chains appropriate for the situation at hand.

Kits are not MEANT to be a replacement for your regular weapons. They are supposed to provide you with additional flexibility and utility, which they do well.If you want to swap to a mode which you can just stay in and use the same skills then play elementalist instead, although weaver actually operates on the same line of thinking.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say across your comments. Do you think kits and weapons are the same (because you have said they both are and aren't)? Do you think engineer doesn't need any more ranged capabilities? Also, if a kit doesn't take up a utility slot that could be filled with an elixir or gadget, then what is it taking up?It would be helpful to know your thoughts on what sort of weapon the next engineer elite spec should get.

[Oxstar.7643]

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

Mechanically, they're not. Weapons don't require you to give up a utility slot.But even if we include them, as others have said they're not particularly good to use. If they're not traited, they move slowly, and they are all projectile based, meaning they're heavily countered in blob fights. Not to mention that they're all ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

Traiting for the weapons you want to use. Yes indeed, this is what happens in this game. Also, I'm tired of this give up a utility slot for a weapons "argument".

Engineer is a class that is about combining various weapons skills from both your kits and weapons into chains appropriate for the situation at hand.

Kits are not MEANT to be a replacement for your regular weapons. They are supposed to provide you with additional flexibility and utility, which they do well.If you want to swap to a mode which you can just stay in and use the same skills then play elementalist instead, although weaver actually operates on the same line of thinking.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say across your comments. Do you think kits and weapons are the same (because you have said they both are and aren't)? Do you think engineer doesn't need any more ranged capabilities? Also, if a kit doesn't take up a utility slot that could be filled with an elixir or gadget, then what is it taking up?It would be helpful to know your thoughts on what sort of weapon the next engineer elite spec should get.

EVERY utility is a choice. You give up something for something else. It's really a moot argument. Kits are a core thing of engineers and they are just as good as the rest of the utilities, depending on what you are building for. You're giving up one utility for another. Every class does this. Also, kits are not technically weapons, even though in function they are. But, like I already explained, they are not meant to be used as primary weapons, but as weapons you swap to to use skills and then swap to something else. I'm honestly unsure what some peoples issue with them are. You don't HAVE to use them. Elixir based specc engies for instance are still strong and good.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

Mechanically, they're not. Weapons don't require you to give up a utility slot.But even if we include them, as others have said they're not particularly good to use. If they're not traited, they move slowly, and they are all projectile based, meaning they're heavily countered in blob fights. Not to mention that they're all ground targeted, with no auto-attack.

Traiting for the weapons you want to use. Yes indeed, this is what happens in this game. Also, I'm tired of this give up a utility slot for a weapons "argument".

Engineer is a class that is about combining various weapons skills from both your kits and weapons into chains appropriate for the situation at hand.

Kits are not MEANT to be a replacement for your regular weapons. They are supposed to provide you with additional flexibility and utility, which they do well.If you want to swap to a mode which you can just stay in and use the same skills then play elementalist instead, although weaver actually operates on the same line of thinking.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say across your comments. Do you think kits and weapons are the same (because you have said they both are and aren't)? Do you think engineer doesn't need any more ranged capabilities? Also, if a kit doesn't take up a utility slot that could be filled with an elixir or gadget, then what is it taking up?It would be helpful to know your thoughts on what sort of weapon the next engineer elite spec should get.

EVERY utility is a choice. You give up something for something else. It's really a moot argument. Kits are a core thing of engineers and they are just as good as the rest of the utilities, depending on what you are building for. You're giving up one utility for another. Every class does this. Also, kits are not technically weapons, even though in function they are. But, like I already explained, they are not meant to be used as primary weapons, but as weapons you swap to to use skills and then swap to something else. I'm honestly unsure what some peoples issue with them are. You don't HAVE to use them. Elixir based specc engies for instance are still strong and good.

What? I really think there's been an issue in communication here, because there's literally nothing in there that I disagree with. However, it does seem to contradict your earlier statements. What did you mean when you said this:

Grenades would like a word. Or are kits not weapons now?

[Oxstar.7643]

Grenades are a weapon in every sense but technically. Maybe I was unclear.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

But why would that stop a new elite spec getting a ranged weapon? (Unless of course that's not what you meant by bringing it up)

[Oxstar.7643]

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:But why would that stop a new elite spec getting a ranged weapon? (Unless of course that's not what you meant by bringing it up)

That's not what I mean, no. I was only trying to say that if you count grenades as a weapon, which again, it is, in everything but technically speaking, then hammer is not the best ranged weapon. The new elite specc getting a ranged weapon is okay with me. After all, turns out that at least for condition builds, hopping your blowtorch up to 20k burn damage beats the tar out of sword, plus the poison and confusion you also get out of it. Elite speccs working just as well without their poster weapon as with is important.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@ThrakathNar.4537 said:But why would that stop a new elite spec getting a ranged weapon? (Unless of course that's not what you meant by bringing it up)

That's not what I mean, no. I was only trying to say that if you count grenades as a weapon, which again, it is, in everything but technically speaking, then hammer is not the best ranged weapon. The new elite specc getting a ranged weapon is okay with me. After all, turns out that at least for condition builds, hopping your blowtorch up to 20k burn damage beats the tar out of sword, plus the poison and confusion you also get out of it. Elite speccs working just as well without their poster weapon as with is important.

The hammer comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but if you're fighting a zerg in WvW, it genuinely is better at range than grenades, because grenades are projectiles and therefore are countered heavily by firebrands, scrappers, even chronos. Also, as far as engineer condition builds go, the highest benchmark is still triple-kit, but holosmith isn't designed to be a condi spec, so of course you wouldn't be using sword (the weapon only applies one damaging condition, and it's bleeding).

[Oxstar.7643]

I think the argument for the lock load & burn build is that you're not losing enough condition damage for it not being worth the extra defense and raw power.Also, if it wasn't mean to be good at condition damage then I don't think holo forge's 4 would deal so much burning.

[Shaogin.2679]

What I really want is a support focused spec that allows us to fill the role of supplying quickness and/or alacrity. We don't really need any help at all with our healing, since core Engineer is already perfectly capable of that. If this new spec gave us better condi damage options as well, that would be cool too. But in PvE, I feel what we are really needing is a good dedicated support spec.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@Oxstar.7643 said:I think the argument for the lock load & burn build is that you're not losing enough condition damage for it not being worth the extra defense and raw power.Also, if it wasn't mean to be good at condition damage then I don't think holo forge's 4 would deal so much burning.

You're referring to the Lord hizen build? That's not optimised for DPS, it's also meant to be survivable, otherwise it wouldn't have 1.7k toughness and 40% boon duration, perfect for soloing champions, but poor in group PvE (worse than that even, because your toughness is so high you might take over tanking). And forge skill 4 is the only 1 in the 5 that applies conditions, the rest are pure power. Auto-attack? Power. Holo leap? Power. Corona Burst? Power. Even the photon blitz itself has a decently high power coefficient. It's pretty hard to say holo is a condition spec when almost none of the holo attacks apply conditions. The build itself is heavily reliant on the condition potential of firearms.

[Oxstar.7643]

But having a skill on low CD that does so good burn damge lends itself extremely well to condition builds, wouldn't you say?

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@"Oxstar.7643" said:But having a skill on low CD that does so good burn damge lends itself extremely well to condition builds, wouldn't you say?

It helps a condition build yes (although it's not on nearly as small a cooldown as Corona Burst, a pure power skill), but there is just no getting away from the fact that holo is designed as a power spec for engineer , not a condi one. If anet wanted holo to be condi, the stat bonuses for Rune of the Holosmith wouldn't be power and vitality.

[Oxstar.7643]

Point being that I'm glad holosmith works so well for condition builds. I consider elite speccs being flexible enough to be viable for multiple weapons to be imortant. One dimensional speccs is not good, neither are cookie cutter builds.

[Jski.6180]

Sadly as long as eng has kits and its elite spec can use though kits every elite spec on eng is what the kits make of it. Like having atuments for ele on utility. More of a question what do you want added to eng.

I like to see an automaton pet class with swap-able parts to changes the pets roll making the eng not the center of the game play but its pet.

Like puppet master from ff11 (i was kind of hopping scraper would be that class but gyros never worked well as pets and now they are no longer pets).

[Oxstar.7643]

@Jski.6180 said:Sadly as long as eng has kits and its elite spec can use though kits every elite spec on eng is what the kits make of it. Like having atuments for ele on utility. More of a question what do you want added to eng.

Using kits is totally voluntary. Go on the build site, see what you can find in speccs that doesn't use then. Elixir engineer should still work.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Sadly as long as eng has kits and its elite spec can use though kits every elite spec on eng is what the kits make of it. Like having atuments for ele on utility. More of a question what do you want added to eng.

Using kits is totally voluntary. Go on the build site, see what you can find in speccs that doesn't use then. Elixir engineer should still work.

I think the point is that the kits are always going to be there, which means that any engineer specialisation is going to be balanced on the basis that kits are available.

Which, from an internal balance perspective, is handled somewhat by giving the engineer particularly strong utilities which can compete with the kits, but that means that less of the overall "power budget" can be spent elsewhere without making it OP.

[Jski.6180]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Sadly as long as eng has kits and its elite spec can use though kits every elite spec on eng is what the kits make of it. Like having atuments for ele on utility. More of a question what do you want added to eng.

Using kits is totally voluntary. Go on the build site, see what you can find in speccs that doesn't use then. Elixir engineer should still work.

I think the point is that the kits are always going to be there, which means that any engineer specialisation is going to be balanced on the basis that kits are available.

Which, from an internal balance perspective, is handled somewhat by giving the engineer particularly strong utilities which can compete with the kits, but that means that less of the overall "power budget" can be spent elsewhere without making it OP.

That a bit more complex of an ideal then i was talking about... but what do you think about the automaton pet class ideal the ff11 puppet master?

[Infusion.7149]

After nearly 2 months of this poll I'm not sure why there's so many votes on quickness/alacrity. If you want quickness then basically you can just ask for a slightly lower cooldown on the blast gyro well skill and/or just adjust chronomancer rune (2s quickness on wells) to 3s with sharing such that 50-80% boon duration can attain 100% subgroup coverage without needing to run full wells. 4 wells with 100% boon duration in the current state would put you at 100% coverage with alacrity if blast gyro was slightly lower cooldown. Currently you would need to run defensive gyros (medic, bulwark, purge, shredder).

Unless there's utility nobody is going to take it over StM chrono / cQB / pQB / HB. This is extremely unlikely to happen since while firebrand and chrono can have 100% self quickness (and to subgroup) with 25 to 100% boon duration, scrapper can't even attain 100% self quickness with Applied Force since it has 10s cooldown and 3s base duration.

Alacrity doesn't fit engineers as well and I believe renegade revenant will remain a dominant pick for alacrity due to ease of use , group coverage (10 players) and the large radius as well as the condi RR option which is much less clunky than a chrono for alacrity.

[Shaogin.2679]

@Infusion.7149 said:After nearly 2 months of this poll I'm not sure why there's so many votes on quickness/alacrity. If you want quickness then basically you can just ask for a slightly lower cooldown on the blast gyro well skill and/or just adjust chronomancer rune (2s quickness on wells) to 3s with sharing such that 50-80% boon duration can attain 100% subgroup coverage without needing to run full wells. 4 wells with 100% boon duration in the current state would put you at 100% coverage with alacrity if blast gyro was slightly lower cooldown. Currently you would need to run defensive gyros (medic, bulwark, purge, shredder).

Unless there's utility nobody is going to take it over StM chrono / cQB / pQB / HB. This is extremely unlikely to happen since while firebrand and chrono can have 100% self quickness (and to subgroup) with 25 to 100% boon duration, scrapper can't even attain 100% self quickness with Applied Force since it has 10s cooldown and 3s base duration.

Alacrity doesn't fit engineers as well and I believe renegade revenant will remain a dominant pick for alacrity due to ease of use , group coverage (10 players) and the large radius as well as the condi RR option which is much less clunky than a chrono for alacrity.

That disorganized rant is kinda hard to piece together. Like, why are we talking about wells and chronomancer runes, when people are asking for a dedicated support spec? You're trying to make Scrapper into the worst quickness provider possible? Yeesh, no thanks. Also, why are you assuming if we got a new support elite spec, that it wouldn't have utility or be able to maintain 100% quickness? And why do you keep bringing up Scrapper when we're all talking about a new elite spec here? And alacrity doesn't fit Engineers? Says who? I mean, I'm sorry you hate the idea so much, but it is a perfectly viable concept, regardless of your opinions.

@Jski.6180 said:Sadly as long as eng has kits and its elite spec can use though kits every elite spec on eng is what the kits make of it. Like having atuments for ele on utility. More of a question what do you want added to eng.

I like to see an automaton pet class with swap-able parts to changes the pets roll making the eng not the center of the game play but its pet.

Like puppet master from ff11 (i was kind of hopping scraper would be that class but gyros never worked well as pets and now they are no longer pets).

I think the biggest issue with kits is that they don't have a designated purpose. Each kit has at least two or three skills that make it worth taking for a variety of builds, which is why those kits constantly take up our utility slots when we're trying to max our dps. Holosmith helped out a lot with power builds though, by introducing a strong weapon and utilities. You can do amazing dps on a Holosmith now with only a single kit. Condi damage builds are still an issue though due to the best condi damage skills being spread over multiple kits, making it mandatory to bring them.

As for the puppet master idea, I'm not fond of it. Personally, I would prefer our turrets to actually be worth using. The reason our turrets suck is the same reason I don't want an elite spec based on AI. Anet never lets AI builds perform well for long, especially when it causes issues in PvP. So if we did get an AI based elite spec, it would most likely be nerfed to hot garbage real quick and we'd just be stuck with Holosmith again.

[MrForz.1953]

@"Shaogin.2679" said:That disorganized rant is kinda hard to piece together. Like, why are we talking about wells and chronomancer runes, when people are asking for a dedicated support spec? You're trying to make Scrapper into the worst quickness provider possible? Yeesh, no thanks. Also, why are you assuming if we got a new support elite spec, that it wouldn't have utility or be able to maintain 100% quickness? And why do you keep bringing up Scrapper when we're all talking about a new elite spec here? And alacrity doesn't fit Engineers? Says who? I mean, I'm sorry you hate the idea so much, but it is a perfectly viable concept, regardless of your opinions.

It just feels like it's your typical support bot with the name "Engineer" stamped right over "Chronomancer" or so. What kind of gameplay feat will it accomplish and is it worth wasting an elite spec slot on it? Unless you want to one-up the meta boon support builds at their EXACT own game?

An engineer could provide a decent boon support base if Elixir toolbelt skills were more potent, the same way a minion spec would be made moot if turrets were worth using. Many roles may stem from one spec and I'd be disappointed if it was only based on one role and even more so if it was the carbon copy of another e-spec's role.

[Shaogin.2679]

@MrForz.1953 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:That disorganized rant is kinda hard to piece together. Like, why are we talking about wells and chronomancer runes, when people are asking for a dedicated support spec? You're trying to make Scrapper into the worst quickness provider possible? Yeesh, no thanks. Also, why are you assuming if we got a new support elite spec, that it wouldn't have utility or be able to maintain 100% quickness? And why do you keep bringing up Scrapper when we're all talking about a new elite spec here? And alacrity doesn't fit Engineers? Says who? I mean, I'm sorry you hate the idea so much, but it is a perfectly viable concept, regardless of your opinions.

It just feels like it's your typical support bot with the name "Engineer" stamped right over "Chronomancer" or so. What kind of gameplay feat will it accomplish and is it worth wasting an elite spec slot on it? Unless you want to one-up the meta boon support builds at their EXACT own game?

An engineer could provide a decent boon support base if Elixir toolbelt skills were more potent, the same way a minion spec would be made moot if turrets were worth using. Many roles may stem from one spec and I'd be disappointed if it was only based on one role and even more so if it was the carbon copy of another e-spec's role.

Was Firebrand a direct copy of Chronomancer? Was Renegade a direct copy of Chronomancer? No? Then why just jump to the conclusion that a support focused Engineer elite spec would just be a copy? That makes no sense. That is hating on something for the sake of wanting to hate it. We can have a support focused elite spec that applies valuable boons without being a carbon copy of an already existing spec.

[Infusion.7149]

Engineer is essentially the least utilized and played class per GW2Efficiency. It's in Arenanet's best interest to make the most played classes the predominant sources of "must have boons" which is why the suggestion of a banner warrior like spec is the best option for the poll. The chrono nerfs and subsequent buffs to firebrand to make it the number one choice for quickness reflect that design philosophy.

Right now the order of most common classes are:

• Guardian --- #1 playtime
• Warrior --- --- #3 in playtime
• Necromancer
• Ranger --- #2 playtime
• Mesmer
• Elementalist ---- #5 in playtime
• Thief
• Revenant
• Engineer

What is scrapper? A support. One that happens to be dominant in WVW and semi-unwanted in PVE due to lack of DPS or "must have" offensive boons (quickness/alac/might) if run as healing.What is the poll option: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team". So essentially if wells (what used to be gyros as a skill type) added quickness then you would already have that option ingame. It would also achieve role compression similar to HB or druid in that it also heals.

Given that engineer already has viable condi options (unlike thief) , that leave the question of what a new spec would bring if it is condi focused. The two main things would be a better weapon than pistol mainhand and an easier skill rotation if it doesn't have a profession specific bonus similar to banners or ranger spirits.

[MrForz.1953]

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Was Firebrand a direct copy of Chronomancer?Nope.

Was Renegade a direct copy of Chronomancer?Nope.

Then why just jump to the conclusion that a support focused Engineer elite spec would just be a copy?It's written right here, in the poll: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team (+might ofc)"

It was a shift in meta building when it was figured out that classes with some e-specs could provide a gratuitous amount of quickness and/or alacrity. And from that distance it just looks like you want a part of that cake on an e-spec while not moving from engineer.

That is hating on something for the sake of wanting to hate it. We can have a support focused elite spec that applies valuable boons without being a carbon copy of an already existing spec.There's no hating anywhere. If it's boon support it's already done and overdone, it will either be better or worse than what's actually built and likely not any more interesting than the current builds, your best bet for a support that isn't just a one-up would be unique buffs or team mechanics akin to banners.

And by the way, I fail to see how this is derailing.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

@"Infusion.7149" said:Engineer is essentially the least utilized and played class per GW2Efficiency. It's in Arenanet's best interest to make the most played classes the predominant sources of "must have boons" which is why the suggestion of a banner warrior like spec is the best option for the poll. The chrono nerfs and subsequent buffs to firebrand to make it the number one choice for quickness reflect that design philosophy.

Right now the order of most common classes are:

• Guardian --- #1 playtime
• Warrior --- --- #3 in playtime
• Necromancer
• Ranger --- #2 playtime
• Mesmer
• Elementalist ---- #4 in playtime
• Thief
• Revenant
• Engineer

What is scrapper? A support. One that happens to be dominant in WVW and semi-unwanted in PVE due to lack of DPS or "must have" offensive boons (quickness/alac/might) if run as healing.What is the poll option: "Support that buff alac/quickness to team". So essentially if wells (what used to be gyros as a skill type) added quickness then you would already have that option ingame. It would also achieve role compression similar to HB or druid in that it also heals.

Given that engineer already has viable condi options (unlike thief) , that leave the question of what a new spec would bring if it is condi focused. The two main things would be a better weapon than pistol mainhand and an easier skill rotation if it doesn't have a profession specific bonus similar to banners or ranger spirits.

According to GW2 efficiency, that data isn't correct. Elementalist is #5 in playtime, Mesmer #6, and Revenant is #9 in playtime. But setting that aside, Anet definitely doesn't use that methodology to decide which class gets the boons, otherwise herald, renegade, and tempest would all have gone to higher bidders.

Scrapper is not a support, and it never was intended to be a support. If you look at the scrapper traitline, the top row one focuses on increasing personal damage mitigation and superspeed, the middle row on CC, and the bottom row on damage. Impact Savant, Scrapper's minor grandmaster and probably the most build defining trait, is a completely dead trait if you run scrapper as a support. It's a power DPS trait. This is in the same position as Druid's Natural Mender, or Firebrand's Imbued Haste, both of which buff your healing output, clarifying the roles of those elite specs. The main reasons why Scrapper is used as a support in WvW is because of Purity of Purpose (a core trait), Medkit (a core heal "skill"), Superspeed (A scrapper mechanic that both DPS and support can output) and Stealth (a scrapper elite). Core engineer is just such a strong healer that it doesn't matter your third traitline isn't dedicated to healing. However, core engi can't put out those offensive boons.

A condi focused elite for engineer would hopefully bring the option to not run triple kit (hopefully only one or two) by giving engineer a strong autoattack and a strong condi utility.

[EdwinLi.1284]

I am honestly far more interested in make the new Cantha Elite Spec one that gives players options between Direct DPS, Support, and Condition DPS by choosing which path in the skill tree.

For example, Tier 2, Tier 4, and Tier 6 passive of the skill tree are where players always choose their playstyle between 3 passives.

they can design Tier 2 where players choose their gameplay focus with 1st passive increasing Power damage, Crit chance, and Crit damage (Direct DPS path), 2nd passive focus on giving buffs, healing, and/or shields to the player and allies around them by using Weapon, belt, and utility skills but no Damage increase in neither Direct nor condition damage, and 3rd passive focus on buffing condition damage, condition duration, and add 1 extra stack of conditions applied to enemies.

After Tier 2 the Tier 4 and Tier 6 becomes more focus on if players wish to mix up their gameplay or be more directly focused on a specific gameplay style.