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Primordus and Jormag’s abilities (Spoilers)


Tyson.5160

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Went back and looked at the story journal for the episode, which phrases the feed back loop a bit differently.

“At this point, the fire dragon hasn't woken up. The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

Primordus getting Magic from Kralkatorrik seems to be very important detail since they mentioned it in the dialogue and the journal.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@"Tyson.5160" said:I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

Taimi: Almost had it!

: So did we.Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a secJhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

Thinking about them as a major and minor:Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

If that makes any sense.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

Taimi: Almost had it!
: So did we.Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a secJhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

Thinking about them as a major and minor:Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

If that makes any sense.

Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

Anyhow the journal says this:

“ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

Taimi: Almost had it!
: So did we.Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a secJhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

Thinking about them as a major and minor:Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

If that makes any sense.

Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

Anyhow the journal says this:

“ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

Possibly. But I think the interpretation of that is pretty open. It could be implying a new ability gained by Kralk, or it could just simply be the release of magic (no matter how much Aurene seems to have absorbed) that caused them to stir. Especially given the lines last year about Drakkar absorbing magic from Kralk's death.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I’ll take a look some of those old story missions because it seems the frozen ice models appear different then the ones that appear before more of navy blue then light blue.

This feedback loop is also making the destroyers more rabid. So if the feedback loop isn’t a new ability, possibly demonstrating the destruction/ conflagration, the rabid part may be new. Taimi did say that this ability has been amplified by Kralkatorrik’s magic, so clearly Primordus has obtained something from Kralkatorrik.

Taimi makes a bunch of comments as well as Jhavi and Marjory.

Taimi: Almost had it!
: So did we.Braham Eirsson: The arena. It's headed over there.Taimi: How do you—that doesn't even make any sense: the portal's over here.Taimi: Destroyers definitely do not have reason... New algorithm's almost locked on. Hold just a secJhavi Jorasdottir: I assumed it was to draw us away from the gates of Lion's Arch. But that doesn't make any sense.Jhavi Jorasdottir: They tried hitting those first, to draw us away from the settlement. Jory was the only one who saw it.Jhavi Jorasdottir: Maybe Primordus just thrives on chaos. A settlement of defenseless villagers would be a prime target.Marjory Delaqua: You don't have to be a killer Krytan sleuth to see this settlement is a more attractive target than Lion's Arch.Marjory Delaqua: Primordus causes destruction. It's his MO. No better way to do that than set fire to the most vulnerable.Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.Maybe Primordus obtained a bit of the fury magic from Kralkatorrik, which is causing the rabid side of the destroyers.

I think the destroyers burn more is just Primordus' domain of "conflagaration." But the "more rabid" could definitely be Fury. Perhaps they were more "organized" in a sense and stuck closer to Primordus in designated areas, and because of it the dwarves were able to hold them back. But the Fury aspect from Kralk is causing them to go ape-****.

Though, to be honest, I've never really liked these domains. It's difficult understanding the difference between "Fury" and "Conflagaration" or why those would even be domains in the first place. Like, who decided.. hey.. I'm going to give you Plant and Mind, and you Crystal and Fury.

Thinking about them as a major and minor:Plant, Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Crystal.Mind, Conflagration, Persuasion, ??, Shadow, Fury.

It's just difficult trying to make any connection between them in terms of the general "balance" and sustaining of life.. as elder dragons are more or less a natural part of the eco-system.

I think that's one thing that's always frustrated me about the Elder Dragons. Not knowing their origin, the reason they have these specific domains, and fearing we may never get any kind of resolution or further dive into it. But maybe that's just reading too much into it and the Elder Dragons just are. And the domains are just devices they've created to allow them to survive/thrive, like unique evolutionary traits they've developed. Just weird when you think about them being absorbed or used by the other dragons, unless they more or less absorb their essence and consciousness. Then I suppose it's less about absorbing some intangible magical ability and more just obtaining their knowledge of how to use those devices.

If that makes any sense.

Yeah, I considered that as well, what’s interesting too is how if you read the story journal it gives a slightly more different play on the same words that Taimi used. I’m sure the destruction aspect could be a cause of the loop and like you said the rabid part could be a small aspect of Fury.

Anyhow the journal says this:

“ The "feedback loop" of magic between the Elder Dragon and its destroyers is creating a vicious cycle, all started with Kralkatorrik's death and the subsequent absorption of its magic. In Gorrik's words, "Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential."”

This seems to me that this loop is a new thing according to the journal. Why advise that’s it from Kralkatorrik’s death in the first place. You could easily cut that information away and Taimi could advise hey we discovered a new ability that Primordus had, that we never knew existed. This doesn’t seem to be the case. Whatever this feedback loop is, it seems to derive from Kralkatorrik and his magic, much like how they advised that Kralkatorrik gained advanced hive mind abilities from Mordremoth, without really saying that Kralkatorrik gained Mordremoth’s mind sphere.

Possibly. But I think the interpretation of that is pretty open. It could be implying a new ability gained by Kralk, or it could just simply be the release of magic (no matter how much Aurene seems to have absorbed) that caused them to stir. Especially given the lines last year about Drakkar absorbing magic from Kralk's death.

Yeah, I suppose. It’s very possible that this is a form of Crystal and Fury Domain in regards to the feedback loop too, the common resonance from the Crystal domain that allowed for the branded to be weak to each other and Kralkatorrik, as well as the Fury domain making them rabid and semi unorganized, but we’ll have to see more evidence from future releases hopefully.

Like you were saying before look at how each dragon have been using each other’s power, it all seems slightly different.

Mordremoth was able to create minions from the dead due to the absorption from Zhaitan death magic as well as use some Shadow domain for himself in its final battle as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon.

Primordus infused death and plant magic into his destroyers from both deceased dragons. While we have this new feed back loop from Kralkatorrik apparently.

Jormag appeared to be experimenting with death and plant icebrood, and uses death magic to speak through corpses, as well has gain the ability from Balthazar to Mist travel.

Kralkatorrik was able to create branded from the dead as well and resurrect dead branded minions, as well as use an advanced hive mind from Mordremoth’s mind sphere. He was also able to use Mist Travel as well from Balthazar.

We’ll see if Jormag or Primordus has further tricks up their sleeves as well as what the DSD has acquired in terms of magic domains.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

So something like the primordial fire in Edge of Destiny (which could burn even Destroyers, which in the book were presented as completely immune to Sohothin's fire) would probably be able to do it.

Curiously we can burn destroyers now. That may be just to balance the gameplay for guardians playing the story. But perhaps it's related to us being a champion of Aurene.

Fury contains sun magic, perhaps our fire is now hot enough to melt rock.

And ice is crystalline. I'm guessing we could shatter the ice surrounding the Frozen with the wings we've manifested before to shatter crystal in the Descent. Though that might kill the people inside.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

This would make it harder (or outright impossible) for destroyers to damage. Primordus, however, should have an easier time of it - same with something made out of a higher quantity of Primordus magic than the current destroyers at least.

So something like the primordial fire in Edge of Destiny (which could burn even Destroyers, which in the book were presented as completely immune to Sohothin's fire) would probably be able to do it.

Curiously we can burn destroyers now. That may be just to balance the gameplay for guardians playing the story. But perhaps it's related to us being a champion of Aurene.

Fury contains sun magic, perhaps our fire is now hot enough to melt rock.

And ice is crystalline. I'm guessing we could shatter the ice surrounding the Frozen with the wings we've manifested before to shatter crystal in the Descent. Though that might kill the people inside.

The fairness of gameplay for guardians, eles, berserkers etc will be the overriding reason. But, the explanation in lore can pretty go in a few directions. For me, I've put it down to the explanation that Primordus' adapting the magic he absorbed from other Dragons has has the side effect of remaining susceptible to our burning (as per LS3) even though he isn't directly utilising their magic anymore. Combine that with the idea of Aurene's influence/your idea above alteriung our burning spells and it seems to hold together enough for gameplay purposes

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  • 2 months later...

So now that both are dead, what powers do you think each gained from Kralkatorrik? I’m still convinced that these feed back loop and Frozen are somehow a Crystal acquired ability, however now that both are gone, we don’t have much more evidence.

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10 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

So now that both are dead, what powers do you think each gained from Kralkatorrik? I’m still convinced that these feed back loop and Frozen are somehow a Crystal acquired ability, however now that both are gone, we don’t have much more evidence.


The feedback loop I don't think was a Kralk thing. Primordus' domain was "conflagration" and conflagration to me implies a rage that just builds, and builds, and builds exponentially. Though I can see how this would seem similar to the "resonance" weakness that Kralk had or the "fury" that one of them would have inherited.

The crystal and Jormag's frozen I can agree with though as I'm not really sure how freezing people would have protected them from apocalyptic rain of fire without a little extra.

If anything, I'd say Jormag got fury though due to how aggressive it seemed to become towards Primordus over the development of the chapter. I think it was ALWAYS that way, but whose to say that anger towards the balance and towards Primordus wasn't severely worsened by Kralk.

The real question I have is, does any of this even matter anymore?

It felt like it was an interesting deeper plot at some point filled with mystery and intrigue as to what dragons got what domains, seeing their powers manifest in the other elder dragons, seeing their minions take on aspects of the other elder dragons domains like vine-touched destroyers etc....

But then during this chapter we didn't see any of that and have some passive dialogue that you have to actually search for, from Phlunt, talking about how it seems like Primordus has somehow filtered the magic out. Yet we kill Kralk YEARS after Zhaitan and Mordremoth and he's still reeling with torment and has the death-branded shatterer?

It feels like something they don't really care about anymore or want to elaborate on. 

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9 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:


The feedback loop I don't think was a Kralk thing. Primordus' domain was "conflagration" and conflagration to me implies a rage that just builds, and builds, and builds exponentially. Though I can see how this would seem similar to the "resonance" weakness that Kralk had or the "fury" that one of them would have inherited.

The crystal and Jormag's frozen I can agree with though as I'm not really sure how freezing people would have protected them from apocalyptic rain of fire without a little extra.

If anything, I'd say Jormag got fury though due to how aggressive it seemed to become towards Primordus over the development of the chapter. I think it was ALWAYS that way, but whose to say that anger towards the balance and towards Primordus wasn't severely worsened by Kralk.

The real question I have is, does any of this even matter anymore?

It felt like it was an interesting deeper plot at some point filled with mystery and intrigue as to what dragons got what domains, seeing their powers manifest in the other elder dragons, seeing their minions take on aspects of the other elder dragons domains like vine-touched destroyers etc....

But then during this chapter we didn't see any of that and have some passive dialogue that you have to actually search for, from Phlunt, talking about how it seems like Primordus has somehow filtered the magic out. Yet we kill Kralk YEARS after Zhaitan and Mordremoth and he's still reeling with torment and has the death-branded shatterer?

It feels like something they don't really care about anymore or want to elaborate on. 

Yeah and according to the Spirits, Primordus absorbed the energy of three dragons and changed physically, explaining his change from season 3.


Will the DSD show all the different dragon domains is hard to say.

 

With the loop, it could be the conflagration/ destruction sphere, maybe the rabidness of the destroyers might be a trait of fury.

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28 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Yeah and according to the Spirits, Primordus absorbed the energy of three dragons and changed physically, explaining his change from season 3.


Will the DSD show all the different dragon domains is hard to say.

 

With the loop, it could be the conflagration/ destruction sphere, maybe the rabidness of the destroyers might be a trait of fury.

They really didn't commit to that idea though.

We once got shown mixed dragon minions, due to Zhaitan and Mordremoth dying. This didn`t really get picked up ever again, especially not for Jormag.

It's simply inconsistent and I do not know if I should hope for anet to remember this concept existed, since they clearly didn't care for that in between, or if they should ignore alltogether. Both doesn't seem right to me.

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This is a late reply but each dragon tried to use those abilities differently. Primordus added them to his Destroyers, Jormag tried to make a Champion with it, and Kralkatorrik integrated those powers into himself as he doesn't care about his minions at all.

 

All of these efforts seem to be considered failures and abandoned, as no dragon was able to accomplish their goals despite all the extra power, due to its conflicting nature, it made them stronger but also weakened them at the same time.

 

For example, Jormag's Abomination could be killed by using the other magics on it, and Primordus's modified Destroyers were vulnerable while chilled.

 

And Kralkatorrik suffered from Torment.

 

But the reason Kralkatorrik suffered from Torment while Aurene, Jormag and Primordus don't is because Aurene was born with it, integrating it into her makeup, and Jormag and Primordus were both completely drained of magic and put to sleep, causing the same effect. Its said that they both came back stronger as a result.

 

So basically Jormag and Primordus can't wield the other domains any more than Aurene could, because they channel the other types of magic as their own magic after being reborn. gaining only the strengths and seemingly none of the weaknesses.

 

Its like putting a water filter on a faucet carrying polluted water. You still get just as much water out of it, but far less of the contaminants. Remember, as stated in HoT magic is a spectrum just like light, and ley energy is considered the purest magic there is. Dragon magic is just a corruption of it after being filtered in a specific way.

 

(The Chak filter out "Death" magic, not "Zhaitan" magic.)

 

Taimi explains all of this at various points ranging from HoT to IBS. But she talked so fast this season its hard to notice it all.

 

The lore doesn't have as many plot holes as players think, it just feels like no one pays attention anymore if its not directly explained to them with long conversations. 😕

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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