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Kourna and Jahai


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I feel like these are the two weakest maps in the game, overall.

They were clearly unfinished at their time of release (especially Kourna), are both connected to each other, came one after another in the story and have some of the lowest player populations I've seen in the game except when Jahai meta is up.

I think they should be merged together like IBS maps are, which would help with some of these problems.

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Jahai on release was a really good map, but yes I can imagine it has suffered due the number of group events and that the Sunspear Sanctuary was very underwhelming. It never felt unfinished tho

Kourna was unfinished.I believe the Moon Palace was cut from release. The meta itself is just dreadful when u see things like Dragonfall, Silverwastes and Drizzlewoid. It’s only good thing is that it doesn’t rely heavily on group activities.

Merging together wouldn’t work. They are tied to their episodes for starters. LS4 populations are just naturally low these days, partly due to focus in later content and partly due to the server problems which ran through 2020.

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Kourna is one of the worst maps in the game. Absolutely horrifying visually and incomparable with the ambiance of gw1's Kourna. The meta was barely finished.On the other hand, jahai is one of my favorite maps, visually perfect and when you like to complete all the achievements, you have a lot to do. Jahai received a lot of great reviews upon release.

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Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 4 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something?

Yes this thread is talking about two season 4 episodes new/old players still play those mate.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something?

Yes this thread is talking about two season 4 episodes new/old players still play those mate.

Sorry someone mentioned season 3 regarding Kourna.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 3 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

Wasn’t it Season 4 or am I missing something?

Yes this thread is talking about two season 4 episodes new/old players still play those mate.

Sorry someone mentioned season 3 regarding Kourna.

Oh yea your right I miss read that part.

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I returned to Jahai a few weeks ago to finish some achievements and just recently for the collection required for Vision. I really started to appreciate the variety and the many things you can do there, although it has some issues with some group events (like so many other maps after LS3).Kourna is horrible though. The upper right corner is a wasteland and you kind of stop half way in the Moon Fortress. That one is by far the worst map of LS4.

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@radda.8920 said:Kourna is one of the worst maps in the game. Absolutely horrifying visually and incomparable with the ambiance of gw1's Kourna. The meta was barely finished.On the other hand, jahai is one of my favorite maps, visually perfect and when you like to complete all the achievements, you have a lot to do. Jahai received a lot of great reviews upon release.

I have to disagree here. Visually, it was not groundbreaking, but it didn't look bad at all. It looked like a desert, it had a bunch of variety and even had different dunes and rock formations, the swamp area was also very distinct. The oasis area is also very beautiful and the deep water was very fun too.The ambience in the villages is very strong actually. It feels very believable, the characters that live there and have to deal with all of this, it felt strong.The meta was underwhelming and unfinished, it drags the map down as a whole.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@radda.8920 said:Kourna is one of the worst maps in the game. Absolutely horrifying visually and incomparable with the ambiance of gw1's Kourna. The meta was barely finished.On the other hand, jahai is one of my favorite maps, visually perfect and when you like to complete all the achievements, you have a lot to do. Jahai received a lot of great reviews upon release.

I have to disagree here. Visually, it was not groundbreaking, but it didn't look bad at all. It looked like a desert, it had a bunch of variety and even had different dunes and rock formations, the swamp area was also very distinct. The oasis area is also very beautiful and the deep water was very fun too.The ambience in the villages is very strong actually. It feels very believable, the characters that live there and have to deal with all of this, it felt strong.The meta was underwhelming and unfinished, it drags the map down as a whole.

Visually kourna was one of the most beautiful areas in guild wars 1. The atmosphere close to a savannah was exceptional. So seeing this mythical place transformed into a uglier orr version, it was a shockSame probleme with Gandara, it is one of the most intense co-ops of gw1 and see it reduced to a poor meta of 5 min ...globally this same problem is found everywhere in elona. Lots of decors ruined by Kralkatorrik or the zombie atmosphere.Hope the cantha vibe won't be destroy in the same way

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@Hannelore.8153 said:I feel like these are the two weakest maps in the game, overall.

They were clearly unfinished at their time of release (especially Kourna), are both connected to each other, came one after another in the story and have some of the lowest player populations I've seen in the game except when Jahai meta is up.

I think they should be merged together like IBS maps are, which would help with some of these problems.

You can say that many, if not all, of the LS maps seem unfinished. People criticized Kourna for all of this unused space but praise Sandswept despite it having even more unused space. If I wanted to, I could claim that Grothmar is unfinished because the Murakai event seems lame and rushed and we should have gone into Doomlore just like people say about the Gandara meta. People have also criticized episode/story length for many episodes but back during LS2, they praised the Glint lair episode despite that.

People are just very inconsistent with their criticisms and what they consider an episode to be good. What they may find bad in one episode isn’t an issue in another for some reason.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Kourna has an unfinished meta event. The Moon Fortress (Gandara) was so underwhelming too, invisible walls everywhere, boring enemies (nothing new), indeed one of the worst maps of Season 4 (the worst?)

Jahai itself is not a bad map. The incursions are unique, the blending of different areas with the mists is also unique, the map itself is varied. We also got a new world boss in Death Branded Shatterer although it's weird that unlike other meta events, the pre-events for Shatterer aren't needed to progress. Weird but good imo, looking at the mess of Drakar where they combined pre and boss in one timer. The only underwhelming (or perhaps a better word is overhyped) part of Jahai is the Sunspear Sanctuary. At least we got Eye of the North, which is what Sunspear Sanctuary should've been like. Which parts of the map do you find unfinished????

Combining them isn't really an option as they exist on different episodes and they'd need a massive rework. The way living world maps work is that they separate, so certain ideas and mechanics can work. For example, if they are combined, why would we see brandstorms and rifts only in the Jahai part and not Kourna?

Icebrood Saga delivers single maps spread across two episodes. Unlocking either episode unlocks the map itself. That's why I suggested this now because they have the technology and Kourna and Jahai are an obvious fit for it.

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I just started with season 4 recently. In Kourna atm finishing all the permanent achievements. So far the population never really seemed low - in all of those first 3 maps. Even if not on dailies. But lower than season 3. (I guess season 3 has more people because of the farming for the ascended trinkets there.)

Always people doing the meta on Istan, Sandswept Isles and Kourna. But I think the bounties are a bit less important there. (Only the 1 legendary for the visions achievement I think.) Still everything seems doable.

Meta really is boring though. The golem is too strong. (Too much hp.) Boring and lengthy fight. The hearts feel like they take a bit longer to complete. (Grindier + you also need a lot more of the map resources than in the previous map. If you want do to the unique stuff for achievements ... like that banner of the commander.)

They should have made some sub boss that fights for Joko. One of the marshals. Not the inquest. At the meta.The whole plague thing feels like they cut it really short. Gorrik appearing. Talking something about 2nd and 3rd generation. (I did not really understand why the 3rd one should be more dangerous?)

Then we just are immune cause we already died in the past once. And we kill all the scarab swarms with mounts. And shut down some lab quickly. There really should have been 1 step in between. Huger defensive events in the other maps or separate map in between Sandswept Isle and Kourna.

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@Luthan.5236 said:I just started with season 4 recently. In Kourna atm finishing all the permanent achievements. So far the population never really seemed low - in all of those first 3 maps. Even if not on dailies. But lower than season 3. (I guess season 3 has more people because of the farming for the ascended trinkets there.)

Always people doing the meta on Istan, Sandswept Isles and Kourna. But I think the bounties are a bit less important there. (Only the 1 legendary for the visions achievement I think.) Still everything seems doable.

Meta really is boring though. The golem is too strong. (Too much hp.) Boring and lengthy fight. The hearts feel like they take a bit longer to complete. (Grindier + you also need a lot more of the map resources than in the previous map. If you want do to the unique stuff for achievements ... like that banner of the commander.)

They should have made some sub boss that fights for Joko. One of the marshals. Not the inquest. At the meta.The whole plague thing feels like they cut it really short. Gorrik appearing. Talking something about 2nd and 3rd generation. (I did not really understand why the 3rd one should be more dangerous?)

Then we just are immune cause we already died in the past once. And we kill all the scarab swarms with mounts. And shut down some lab quickly. There really should have been 1 step in between. Huger defensive events in the other maps or separate map in between Sandswept Isle and Kourna.

I believe the awakened incursion events take place around the episode 1-3 of Season 4 for Joko invading the rest of Tyria via Inquest technology.

This may have provided a better impression of Joko invading, unless you did those too.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Luthan.5236 said:

Meta really is boring though. The golem is too strong. (Too much hp.) Boring and lengthy fight. The hearts feel like they take a bit longer to complete. (Grindier + you also need a lot more of the map resources than in the previous map. If you want do to the unique stuff for achievements ... like that banner of the commander.)

The main problem is that the mobs don't drop anything (when there's nowhere near enough of them to justify it), giving zero reason to go back. Add the lack of a fixed timer, and that's probably why it's not done very often. And yes, boring golem with too much health and pointless invulnerable phases to make it even more boring.

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@radda.8920 said:Lots of decors ruined by Kralkatorrik or the zombie atmosphere.Hope the cantha vibe won't be destroy in the same way

Although I understand that Anet was going for an apocalyptical atmosphere, I totally agree with this. Personally, I hate Orr the most just because it is so ugly and I don't really like the undead stereotypical mindless zombie trope enemies littered around the landscape. It's fine from the story telling aspect I guess, but it is pretty stale.

So far, all Elder Dragon corruption seems scary or ominous. Dead and tattered risen sea remains, monstrous vines and devil like minions, burnt/crystalized landscapes and crystal impaled minions, and the same kind of thing but with ice. They were all pretty nightmarish, but I would kind of enjoy an Elder Dragon (even if they are evil) to make stunning landscapes (maybe even beautiful minions?), pristine shiny water, etc., but being dangerous as hell. Since we have not seen any DSD minions or corruption, or we are unaware of it anyway, I think Anet has a great opportunity here, because they basically have a completely blank slate to work with and be really creative.

As long as we don't have to deal with undead or zombies, or another Canthan plague, I'd be pretty happy. Maybe more of a shift towards mysticism, secret human (and non-human?) societies working in Cantha. I always thought the White Mantle and Svanir were interesting since they were not controlled by corruption/branding, but had this weird dragon/magic cult thing going on, and wouldn't mind more of that kind of enemy, with less apocalyptic landscapes and gory-facade enemies.

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Kourna doenst even had a loot table at lauch many events/mob areas with 0 loot...Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

I wonder whats kinda of problems studio had at time, episode 1~2 was lauched at regular pace, but 3 delayed then ppl become more suspicious and started complain on forum, then the rushed lauch, and the roller bettle developer left right after episode lauch.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

There's probably only a few since everyone else doesn't see it including myself. I actually can't think of anything from Silverwastes that is on that map to be honest.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

There's probably only a few since everyone else doesn't see it including myself. I actually can't think of anything from Silverwastes that is on that map to be honest.

notice the terrain, plains or mountain textures. the buildings textures too, even the Canach "vines wall" is just the SW vines.. i suspect the only area that seems "new" is the final meta area.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

There's probably only a few since everyone else doesn't see it including myself. I actually can't think of anything from Silverwastes that is on that map to be honest.

notice the terrain, plains or mountain textures. the buildings textures too, even the Canach "vines wall" is just the SW vines.. i suspect the only area that seems "new" is the final meta area.

I'm still not seeing it and I ran through both maps just now. At the very most, there are geographical type similarities (i.e. rocky) but I would not go as far as to say "massive Silverwastes assets re-utilization". Furthermore, if you're using that as a reason to criticize the map, then you should look at all of the other maps in the game that share that what you're claiming can be applies towards. Sandswept seems to be the most praised map of LS4 and you can make a claim that many of the map assets used from PoF maps. You can also make the claim about core Tyria maps sharing the same assets as other maps within their regions.

The player populations on these two maps has been criticized as being low when there are no metas but the same can be stated for any of the other maps. Sandswept barely has any players. Actually, one of the complaints about Kourna is how much of the map is unused but just as much of Sandswept, if not more, is unused as well.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

There's probably only a few since everyone else doesn't see it including myself. I actually can't think of anything from Silverwastes that is on that map to be honest.

notice the terrain, plains or mountain textures. the buildings textures too, even the Canach "vines wall" is just the SW vines.. i suspect the only area that seems "new" is the final meta area.

I'm still not seeing it and I ran through both maps just now. At the very most, there are geographical type similarities (i.e. rocky) but I would not go as far as to say "massive Silverwastes assets re-utilization". Furthermore, if you're using that as a reason to criticize the map, then you should look at all of the other maps in the game that share that what you're claiming can be applies towards. Sandswept seems to be the most praised map of LS4 and you can make a claim that many of the map assets used from PoF maps. You can also make the claim about core Tyria maps sharing the same assets as other maps within their regions.

The player populations on these two maps has been criticized as being low when there are no metas but the same can be stated for any of the other maps. Sandswept barely has any players. Actually, one of the complaints about Kourna is how much of the map is unused but just as much of Sandswept, if not more, is unused as well.

The impressive inquest buildings on Sandswept Isles, makes any reuse of textures forgivable, although the map is simplistic in the northern area, its noticeable they put a effort there.

The point inst about "player populations", but rushed work. Kourna has nothing, is a near a random SW pieces throwed with some water, players may not "rationalize" the real reason the map looks tedious and doesn't bring anything new, but that's basically it.

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Also few notice how Kourna have massively silverwastes assets reutilization, this map is just a pickup pieces of silverwastes puzzled in different geography.

There's probably only a few since everyone else doesn't see it including myself. I actually can't think of anything from Silverwastes that is on that map to be honest.

notice the terrain, plains or mountain textures. the buildings textures too, even the Canach "vines wall" is just the SW vines.. i suspect the only area that seems "new" is the final meta area.

I'm still not seeing it and I ran through both maps just now. At the very most, there are geographical type similarities (i.e. rocky) but I would not go as far as to say "massive Silverwastes assets re-utilization". Furthermore, if you're using that as a reason to criticize the map, then you should look at all of the other maps in the game that share that what you're claiming can be applies towards. Sandswept seems to be the most praised map of LS4 and you can make a claim that many of the map assets used from PoF maps. You can also make the claim about core Tyria maps sharing the same assets as other maps within their regions.

The player populations on these two maps has been criticized as being low when there are no metas but the same can be stated for any of the other maps. Sandswept barely has any players. Actually, one of the complaints about Kourna is how much of the map is unused but just as much of Sandswept, if not more, is unused as well.

The impressive inquest buildings on Sandswept Isles, makes any reuse of textures forgivable, although the map is simplistic in the northern area, its noticeable they put a effort there.

So re-using assets is now okay? It just feels like a double standard to me.

The point inst about "player populations", but rushed work. Kourna has nothing, is a near a random SW pieces throwed with some water, players may not "rationalize" the real reason the map looks tedious and doesn't bring anything new, but that's basically it.

I brought up player populations because the OP did. The same thing that you're saying about that map, I can say about many others.

None of the maps have really "wowed" me so I really have no bias towards any of them. Once I have everything from a map, I usually don't go back to it. I see people criticizing maps for things that other maps have with some of those being the same maps they've praised. I see people praising some maps for things but not praising others who do the same or something similar.

There just seems to be some inconsistencies in how people rate episodes or at least in the reasons that they give. I remember criticizing one of the LS2 episodes for having a very short story but it was being praised because of the lore of going into Glint's lair. Years later we get people criticizing episodes for being just as short but they weren't doing that back then. It just leads me to believe that there's something else that is actually influencing how people perceive an episode. If Kourna somehow had Cantha lore, would it have been received differently? Is believe that LS2 episode I was speaking about was well received because it at lore about Glint.

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:There just seems to be some inconsistencies in how people rate episodes or at least in the reasons that they give. I remember criticizing one of the LS2 episodes for having a very short story but it was being praised because of the lore of going into Glint's lair. Years later we get people criticizing episodes for being just as short but they weren't doing that back then. It just leads me to believe that there's something else that is actually influencing how people perceive an episode. If Kourna somehow had Cantha lore, would it have been received differently? Is believe that LS2 episode I was speaking about was well received because it at lore about Glint.

I guess very old episodes(ls4 is near 2yers) people player at more lower pace, either new player or people completing achievs left behind. i myself played 2019 just to see the lore, and map exploration(i like complete maps with my main), and left. i returned to some kind of "completionist" mode in dec. 2020. Meanwhile the "early rushers" tends to be more worried with the replayabilty of the content and how much it bring a "new carrot".

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