Thief Dead?

[Kuma.1503]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:My point is that thief alone shouldn't get special treatment. It's far from dead when compared to actual underperformers (who have had to just suck it up for ages).

Let's not do that. If we keep blocking actual fixes from going through because X class that you happen to play is not buffed everything is going to go further to hell than it already is.

What core thief has to deal with now is just a taste of what other classes have had to deal with and accept. Saying buff thief doesn't begin to address the real problem here.

I'm not talking about core thief specifically here. I am aware it's weak and is not alone on that front.

We should be saying "Buff underperformers" because frankly there's been a criminal lack of that since Feb 2020 dropped.

I'm aware core engie is hella weak despite what Woodstock is doing.

@"Kuma.1503" said:It's even become a meme around here "Nerf teef".

It's a meme because Thief is punished equally across all specs. While core engie is weak and playing with core kit is frustrating, engies have the option of rolling either holo or scrapper and becoming combat effective. I understand the nade nerf was frustrating and getting it rebalanced because of holo was annoying, but holo still performs well, as does scrapper. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means.

Also I don't play core engie very well/am not interested in core beyond bomb kits (I am mildly interested in holo/scrapper) , while I

do

play thief, so I'm going to have much more to say about thief, and relatively little to say about engie. I'm not against them getting buffs, as long as the end result is not handhold-y.

I have become that which I sought to destroy :skull:

But seriously, I agree. Even in my (clearly unbiased) rant, I admitted that the nerf was lazy at best. Likewise, I think thief weapon skills have been overnerfed in a lot of cases. I can't remember the last time I fought a staff thief on sidemodes. At least a few people are starting to bring up outliers on the underperforming end. I don't know much about thief so I can only attest to what I see from other players, and it's almost always d/p or p/d. I reckon there's a good reason for that.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:no its not dead, its still in a good place, not great but not bad which is actually really good in the world of gw2. It can still decap effectively and with sustain slowly been lowered(hopefully that's the direction their going in) teef will be great at +1'ing again.I really hope in the future though the revert some of the ini costs on skills and nerf them in other ways as increasing the cost is just lazy and not only nerfs thief but makes it more clunky to use which should never be the goal. I believe this on every class, a good example is mesmer losing a dodge. Mesmer definitely had far to much access to evades/evade frames and definitely needed to be nerfed in that regard but instead of removing a dodge making Mirage feel clunky they should have instead nerfed some of Mirage other means of evade while leaving its access to both dodges. Before Mirage players chime in saying they were fine before lol no they definitely were not.

they did reduce mesmers evade, cough axe 3, scepter 2, staff nerfs. they just ALSO removed the dodge cuz why not :D

[Arheundel.6451]

@Kachros.4751 said:I mainly just want to see what everyone's opinion is regarding thief in its current state and to see the arguments both against and for its viability/non viability.Just to declare my own view, it still has massive potential within an arranged team if played well enough and in a specific comp, however in the current meta it doesn't really seem to belong too well, regarding ranked it just comes down to if the thief is simply good, and will get some value or if they are bad and will basically just feed, which only a handful of thieves can seem to get good value within ranked.

What even is the purpose of this thread? Thief lovers will say YES...the rest will say NO, each profession would have similar results......

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Performance of Thief is bad after 8 init shortbow 5.

Honestly that change needs to be reverted.

If the performance is bad after shortbow#5 nerf, then reverting this change would be a mistake. The level of performance of a profession shouldn't depend on a single weapon skill.

I'm not saying that thief don't need some nice buffs, but thief certainly don't need to depend on a single skill either. Reverting the shortbow nerf will only lead thiefs to return to it's initial state where player couldn't fathom a thief build without a shortbow.

The problem is, this is all Thief builds in general, not just Shortbow. Due to poor class design they have a low diversity for skill use, even if you try to do something completely different you still end up taking mostly the same skills.

Compare this to classes which can take radically different builds into battle and still succeed.

[Myror.7521]

Don't get and will never get those thief players that said:"thief is death cause I don't deal good damage!". While at the same time they are play on 2 defence lines (daredevil and shadow arts). Like .. you deal basicly 4k damage with 3 skills (backstab and skill 2 and 3) while being in long stealth and do blind while got a ton of mobility. It is just mutch more damage than other classes would deal on 2 defence lines (like warrior on spellbraker defence).

Just take that low damage or play on a other line than just shadow arts and made your gameplay less ezy.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:If the performance is bad after shortbow#5 nerf, then reverting this change would be a mistake. The level of performance of a profession shouldn't depend on a single weapon skill.

I'm not saying that thief don't need some nice buffs, but thief certainly don't need to depend on a single skill either. Reverting the shortbow nerf will only lead thiefs to return to it's initial state where player couldn't fathom a thief build without a shortbow.

The problem is, this is all Thief builds in general, not just Shortbow. Due to poor class design they have a low diversity for skill use, even if you try to do something completely different you still end up taking mostly the same skills.

That doesn't invalidate what I say, in fact I'd even say that it support what I say. Being over reliant on a minority of skills isn't good for the thief. Nerfing shortbow#5 ini cost might have been an attempt to make thief break away from their reliance on this skill.

Compare this to classes which can take radically different builds into battle and still succeed.

Does the thief truly need SB#5 mobility to succeed or is it a specific gameplay that thief players have grown used to? The fact is that SB#5 is a very useful tool to run around but is running around the only thing that can make a thief successful? No, I don't believe it's the case. Thiefs players believe that their "raison d'être" is to be a quick +1 or fast stealthy decap. It's true that the profession excel at these roles but nothing prevent thiefs players to build toward different directions and, in my opinion, if somehow those different directions are lacking, that's where ANet need to apply the buff.

That said, thief players might actually need to be willing to explore different gameplay for those hypothetic buffs to be relevant.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

It's not a matter of theory or philosophy. The game was literally designed that way and had been played where the thief and mesmer was the fast weak guy for 9 years. So let's not pretend that this was not Arenanet's obvious intended design.

What we are talking about are radical changes that are implemented recklessly rather than properly. Suddenly ripping a lot of mobility off of Thief with nothing to compensate is bologna, considering when things like Trap DH, Necros, and other slow bruiser team fighters are undergoing massive mobility creep.

[Quadox.7834]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

It's not a matter of theory or philosophy. The game was literally designed that way and had been played where the thief and mesmer was the fast weak guy for 9 years. So let's not pretend that this was not Arenanet's obvious intended design.

What we are talking about are radical changes that are implemented recklessly rather than properly. Suddenly ripping a lot of mobility off of Thief with nothing to compensate is bologna, considering when things like Trap DH, Necros, and other slow bruiser team fighters are undergoing massive mobility creep.

mesmer fast good joke

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

Here he comes, with his massive superiority complex and bottle of thief salt.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

Here he comes, with his massive superiority complex and bottle of thief salt.

here he comes, with 3 defensive traitlines backstabing for 4,5k and whining he has no damage.buff sb5 cuz it bugged one me REEEE

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

The entire class is designed around being slippery. That's just what it is.

The thief is not a war. The thief is not a necro. The thief is not an engi. The thief does not have options to be able to function anything like those classes. The thief is a thief and all of his builds will always revolve around being slippery and hard to catch.

The thing that you need to be recognizing and giving credit for in this discussion though, is that for thief to have damage "outside of carrion pd builds" he has to go full glass cannon, and aside from what you seem to believe that "they are unkillable", when thieves mess up even once in higher tiered competition, they immediately die.

You should try playing a thief for awhile. It'll change your perspective of things.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

Here he comes, with his massive superiority complex and bottle of thief salt.

here he comes, with 3 defensive traitlines backstabing for 4,5k and whining he has no damage.buff sb5 cuz it bugged one me REEEE

You don't understand the class. At all. You can't (NA = not advancing kekw), and you refuse to.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

or refusal of thief mains to try anything other then un-killable builds, I honestly dont remember the last time there was any thief build that could die by anything other then massive missplays

The entire class is designed around being slippery. That's just what it is.

The thief is not a war. The thief is not a necro. The thief is not an engi. The thief does not have options to be able to function anything like those classes. The thief is a thief and all of his builds will always revolve around being slippery and hard to catch.

The thing that you need to be recognizing and giving credit for in this discussion though, is that for thief to have damage "outside of carrion pd builds" he has to go full glass cannon, and aside from what you seem to believe that "they are unkillable", when thieves mess up even once in higher tiered competition, they immediately die.

You should try playing a thief for awhile. It'll change your perspective of things.

I did play thief for a while, this is why I think its cheesy to begin with. Before I played it I deluded myself into thinking that they did something.But reality is that they take 3x defensive traitlines, make a build that can legit maintain permanent stealth uptime, and complan that their damage is low.Nothing stops the thief for going crit-strikes or condi for more damage, but they wont. Cuz then they can get punished when things go wrong and we cant have it.Thief players are the only ones asking for buffs due to skill being buggy." BUFF sb5 back cuz it bugs once in a blue moon and then I can die " -> if you fail your get out of jail they fucking should die, same way I fucking die when my blink goes off in place im fucked. should I ask to get 2 charges for blink in case first buggs out? lol

[Kuma.1503]

I played critstrikes Deadeye for fun a while back, but instead of camping rifle I played around malicious backstab.

Was funny, critting people for 10k from stealth, instantly dropping them from ~70% health.

Thief mains keep telling me "CS is less reliable damage than SA" but I was seeing these numbers consistently.

I would die at the slightest misstep, but ho boy if you want to do damage on thief, you can definitely do damage on thief.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Not dead, because they have excellent movement speed, invisibility and spike damage compared to other professions.In sPvP, a thief will more often than not kill my Elementalist and if not be extremely annoying by stealth capping any unguarded points with great speed and little risk.

Even when I try to run away from a losing battle with superspeed, swiftness and ride the lightning, a thief still keeps at my location and kills me.Also, it is very hard to keep target selection on a thief enemy, same with a mesmer enemy.

Sure, with a sustained battle, I thief will lose most of the time, unless it is a deadeye that can do its damage from a safe distance. But all professions have their pros and cons.Today some guardian enemy wondered why I was 'invincible' with my tempest. And the next match a thief killed me in 2 seconds.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:Not dead, because they have excellent movement speed, invisibility and spike damage compared to other professions.In sPvP, a thief will more often than not kill my Elementalist and if not be extremely annoying by stealth capping any unguarded points with great speed and little risk.

Even when I try to run away from a losing battle with superspeed, swiftness and ride the lightning, a thief still keeps at my location and kills me.Also, it is very hard to keep target selection on a thief enemy, same with a mesmer enemy.

Sure, with a sustained battle, I thief will lose most of the time, unless it is a deadeye that can do its damage from a safe distance. But all professions have their pros and cons.Today some guardian enemy wondered why I was 'invincible' with my tempest. And the next match a thief killed me in 2 seconds.

What a memer.

[Crab Fear.1624]

I think the problem with thief right now probably is a lower population in general.

Perhaps there is a larger picture, and part of that picture has the thief prominently in it.

My 3 IQ theory is this:

The higher skill a player is, the more they will understand the value of thief, and perform their own roles respectively. (Good)

The lower skill a player is, the less they will understand the value of a thief, and they may try to perform intermixed roles competitively. (Bad)

It was said often that every winning MAT team had a thief, but you couldn't really say that about seasonal conquest when thief was just "good" and not "broken".

Probably, today thief is good, but not broken. (some players believe thief is fundamentally broken, so my argument is never with them)

So, the hidden problem is: a low population.

The commingling of rating tiers will make the performance of a thief seem like a role of dice.

This commingling is due to low population.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

~~ This right here. But all builds that are not "u am +1 go cap uncontest point also" are swiftly nuked because they go outside thief's "role". Then the builds that perform the role get tapped down too because people don't like thieves being able to run away just as much as they don't like them doing damage.~~

Ignore me, I just realized I don't care as much about this as that sounds.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:Not dead, because they have excellent movement speed, invisibility and spike damage compared to other professions.In sPvP, a thief will more often than not kill my Elementalist and if not be extremely annoying by stealth capping any unguarded points with great speed and little risk.

Even when I try to run away from a losing battle with superspeed, swiftness and ride the lightning, a thief still keeps at my location and kills me.Also, it is very hard to keep target selection on a thief enemy, same with a mesmer enemy.

Sure, with a sustained battle, I thief will lose most of the time, unless it is a deadeye that can do its damage from a safe distance. But all professions have their pros and cons.Today some guardian enemy wondered why I was 'invincible' with my tempest. And the next match a thief killed me in 2 seconds.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, a commentary on an actual thought process by an elementalist/satire, or genuine.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Read what I said to Kachros.

Thieves needed SB5 to stay 5 init for those reasons.

That's assuming that thief being a "weak fast guy" is a necessity. Even the necromancer, which is notoriously "slow", can build to be relatively "fast". So maybe the issue of the "weak fast guy" isn't necessarily a loss of speed but a lack of (popular) options to be "strong".

~~ This right here. But all builds that are not "u am +1 go cap uncontest point also" are swiftly nuked because they go outside thief's "role". Then the builds that perform the role get tapped down too because people don't like thieves being able to run away just as much as they don't like them doing damage.~~

Ignore me, I just realized I don't care as much about this as that sounds.

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:Not dead, because they have excellent movement speed, invisibility and spike damage compared to other professions.In sPvP, a thief will more often than not kill my Elementalist and if not be extremely annoying by stealth capping any unguarded points with great speed and little risk.

Even when I try to run away from a losing battle with superspeed, swiftness and ride the lightning, a thief still keeps at my location and kills me.Also, it is very hard to keep target selection on a thief enemy, same with a mesmer enemy.

Sure, with a sustained battle, I thief will lose most of the time, unless it is a deadeye that can do its damage from a safe distance. But all professions have their pros and cons.Today some guardian enemy wondered why I was 'invincible' with my tempest. And the next match a thief killed me in 2 seconds.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, a commentary on an actual thought process by an elementalist/satire, or genuine.

Sry, I got autism and hardly ever use satire.This is my opinion as someone who played a lot of sPvP but only as Elemenstalist/Tempest and came across tons of thieves during my journeys.

[RedAvenged.5217]

People with little thief experience probably wouldn’t get it but the changes help bring other good builds to light, but in the end all that matters is how good are these compared to other classes etc.

Thief’s power level has been trash teir since the “big patch” but ppl took advantage of the few things not touched on and after several small nerfs and this bigger one- it is pigeon holed to not work anymore.

Yeah you can play the cheese builds that ppl thought were meta or even other decent ones like s/d DrD or De but again while they are ‘good’ their power level is just bad compared to rev- there is no reason to play thief besides fun and ranked(or ez ats)

[Sombra.3246]

@Kachros.4751 said:I mainly just want to see what everyone's opinion is regarding thief in its current state and to see the arguments both against and for its viability/non viability.Just to declare my own view, it still has massive potential within an arranged team if played well enough and in a specific comp, however in the current meta it doesn't really seem to belong too well, regarding ranked it just comes down to if the thief is simply good, and will get some value or if they are bad and will basically just feed, which only a handful of thieves can seem to get good value within ranked.

Always has been dead.

[Kuma.1503]

Imo, they should buff thief, but also make it a lot more interactive. My theory for why thief is kept weak is to counterbalance the lack of counterplay inherent in their kit.

Theif has the highest uptime of stealth in the game, a mechanic which removes the counterplay of reading tells or reacting to player movement around the map and planning your own rotations accordingly.

Thief has instant cast steal, which they can use to simultaneously close gaps, land CC, and burst you thanks to traits. Again, unless you're already on a no-port spot, the only counterplay to this is predictions.

Thief has the highest mobility in the game by a mile. You simply lack agency when dueling a good thief. You will never be able to kill them unless they make the first mistake, wheras a good thief can wear you down by repeatedly disengaging and re engaging until you burn your cooldowns, eventually forcing a kill on you.

They're so uninteractable that the best strategy to fighting thief is to simply embrace that it's a waste of time and not interact with them.

Allowing a kit like that to also output good burst and sustained dps and would be beyond oppressive. The need to hold nodes is the biggest thing balancing thief, since it incentivizes them to fight on the opponent's terms and take risks, but the key difference between thief and other classes is the inherent lack of risk. Every other class has to juggle the risk of not being able to disengage every fight if it goes poorly alongside the risk of needing to hold a node. Thief only has to worry about risks they themselves take.

In short. It's a low risk specialization, so the reward must also be low.

Regardless, the specialization is still strong due to the points I laid out. Even without Shortbow, it has 3 dashes, shadowstep, perma swiftness, pseudo immunity to movement impairing effects, and stealth to conceal rotations. Perhaps some of the inherent safety can be toned down, and the tells for their bursts improved in exchange for more damage, but this would require a rework of the class at a base level.

Stealth could also see some changes to give more classes ways of dealing with it. As one example, perhaps if blasing smoke fields grants stealth, maybe blasting light fields causes a reveal. Likewise whiffing an attack into a dodge should reveal the attacker. Adding bits of risk here and there should allow the devs to give back to thieves with lower initiative costs or more damage.

[Yasai.3549]

Thief is not dead.

• Mobility. While SB5 nerf did hurt Thief's ability to rotate, Thief is still more mobile than a majority of the builds currently used in sPvP.When racing against snails, even a sloth is faster.
• +1. Due to their mobility, Thief is still able to bounce between nodes and +1 ongoing fights. Thief while may not do roflstomp damage anymore, they still cause enough disruption to turn a fight around. People who claim that Thief does 0 damage have no idea what they are talking about. Their damage is nowhere near 0, and they are the only Profession left in the game which can potentially remove up to 5 Boons in a insant. (Bountiful + Rending + Sigils)
• Group enabling. Yu know Stealth Portal bombs in WvW? Well, Thief is able to Portal bomb with just Shadow Portal. In addition to this, they can stack stealth for their team before the match starts by blasting fields.
• Side noding Thief is nowhere near dead for 1v1 node dueling. In fact, Thieves are the best at keeping the enemy side noder occupied even if they don't outright win fights because with their mobility and stealth, they put a constant mental pressure on the enemy side noder by threatening to decap or flip it as soon as the Side noder leaves. And if the Side noder doesn't leave, Thief is free to +1 the main fight. No other Profession can do this more effectively than Thief. And Thief doesn't even have to win the fight. And if they do win the 1v1, the node's gone.

@Kuma.1503 said:

Stealth could also see some changes to give more classes ways of dealing with it. As one example, perhaps if blasing smoke fields grants stealth, maybe blasting light fields causes a reveal. Likewise whiffing an attack into a dodge should reveal the attacker. Adding bits of risk here and there should allow the devs to give back to thieves with lower initiative costs or more damage.

+1 For blasting Light Fields for Reveal.

They should move the cleanse portion to Water field too, and make Light Fields seriously anti Smoke.Light Aura : Immunity to BlindLight Blast : Reveal in AoELight Whirl : Reveals enemies hit by bolts.