Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec?

[Mik.3401]

I think it would be nice to remove the shatters and replace them with some sort of mechanism bringing the GW1 mesmer back to life. Hex skills and maybe summoning monster phantasms instead of clones would be cool

[InsaneQR.7412]

There is probably still an equivalent but i think shatters should be replaced by something new. Similarly how scourge got something new but still kept some functionality of suroud.

[Cromx.3941]

I think shatter has become to limiting for Mesmer. YOu almost have to do it and it's not really that enjoyable of a mechanic since its slow and fails a lot and really doesn't do anything but get you close to par with other classes who do not have to go through all that krap. Shattering should be OPTIONAL and not something you feel compelled to do all the time. I think the next elite spec should just have a negative trait that reduces shatter damage by 50% in it so that they can buff the elite spec in other ways to compensate so there is some variety with Mesmers.

[Tseison.4659]

@"Cromx.3941" said:I think shatter has become to limiting for Mesmer. YOu almost have to do it and it's not really that enjoyable of a mechanic since its slow and fails a lot and really doesn't do anything but get you close to par with other classes who do not have to go through all that krap. Shattering should be OPTIONAL and not something you feel compelled to do all the time. I think the next elite spec should just have a negative trait that reduces shatter damage by 50% in it so that they can buff the elite spec in other ways to compensate so there is some variety with Mesmers.

I totally agree with you and understand the frustration because I experience the same hate with shatters. It's not original at all when our class has had our damage and everything else tied to shatters while other professions get a more "evolved" version of their mechanics...I personally do not shatter because the damage is very sub par and if your target dies before your illusions reach then that's a LOSS in damage. So in both PvE & WvW content I mostly use my phantasms and I feel our illusions should've been more like phantasmal attacks. I get the whole "deception" feel that they wanted to pull off with the clones, but it doesn't work nor does it fool anyone.

If they wanted to give us a more deceptive/illusionary skill(s), they should've implemented the White Mantle Mesmer skill that casts a sort of "Glamour" on the user and when it's destroyed, it reveals the actual Mesmer.

At the end of the day, I'm hoping for the best when EoD arrives.

[lockhart.6048]

At first I thought No, now I'd say big YES.

Chrono and Mirage (as E-Specs) did NOTHING to fundamentally change how the core mechanics of the class works. We are still spawning illusions and then shattering, same song and dance since launch. Chrono adds a certain complexity to skill combos, but in the end it didn't really change how we play.

What's worse, our mechanics are tied to fragile AI. So people can complain about the screen bloat, and we get shafted in how they are useless in some modes (like large fights in WvW)

[Tseison.4659]

@lockhart.6048 said:At first I thought No, now I'd say big YES.

Chrono and Mirage (as E-Specs) did NOTHING to fundamentally change how the core mechanics of the class works. We are still spawning illusions and then shattering, same song and dance since launch. Chrono adds a certain complexity to skill combos, but in the end it didn't really change how we play.

What's worse, our mechanics are tied to fragile AI. So people can complain about the screen bloat, and we get shafted in how they are useless in some modes (like large fights in WvW)

Additionally, I think people are blind and naive that when clones are summoned and if your target does before the shatter can go off, that’s a loss of DPS lol! Same goes for using phantasmal utilities especially given how slow the cast time is, same thing, target dies and there goes your utility skill on cooldown....loss of dps once again.

Sorry ‘Mesmer community’ but shatters should’ve been a thing of the past after chrono, regardless of it being a “mechanic.”

[Cromx.3941]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@"lockhart.6048" said:At first I thought No, now I'd say big YES.

Chrono and Mirage (as E-Specs) did NOTHING to fundamentally change how the core mechanics of the class works. We are still spawning illusions and then shattering, same song and dance since

launch

. Chrono adds a certain complexity to skill combos, but in the end it didn't really change how we play.

What's worse, our mechanics are tied to fragile AI. So people can complain about the screen bloat, and we get shafted in how they are useless in some modes (like large fights in WvW)

Additionally, I think people are blind and naive that when clones are summoned and if your target does before the shatter can go off, that’s a loss of DPS lol! Same goes for using phantasmal utilities especially given how slow the cast time is, same thing, target dies and there goes your utility skill on cooldown....loss of dps once again.

Sorry ‘Mesmer community’ but shatters should’ve been a thing of the past after chrono, regardless of it being a “mechanic.”

Exactly it's ridiculous that the clones just "poof". It takes a bit of timing and planning to get 3 clones generated or even a couple and then all that goes to waste a llong with skill cooldowns because the mob dies. In open world PVE you are essentially playing without shattering or clones because of how quickly mobs tend to be burned down. The clones either need to do an AOE detonate where they stand or remain retargetable for a few seconds.

With the way it works now and the over reliance on shattering your DPS varies wildly from serviceable to non existent.

[Tseison.4659]

@Cromx.3941 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:

@"lockhart.6048" said:At first I thought No, now I'd say big YES.

Chrono and Mirage (as E-Specs) did NOTHING to fundamentally change how the core mechanics of the class works. We are still spawning illusions and then shattering, same song and dance since

launch

. Chrono adds a certain complexity to skill combos, but in the end it didn't really change how we play.

What's worse, our mechanics are tied to fragile AI. So people can complain about the screen bloat, and we get shafted in how they are useless in some modes (like large fights in WvW)

Additionally, I think people are blind and naive that when clones are summoned and if your target does before the shatter can go off, that’s a loss of DPS lol! Same goes for using phantasmal utilities especially given how slow the cast time is, same thing, target dies and there goes your utility skill on cooldown....loss of dps once again.

Sorry ‘Mesmer community’ but shatters should’ve been a thing of the past after chrono, regardless of it being a “mechanic.”

Exactly it's ridiculous that the clones just "poof". It takes a bit of timing and planning to get 3 clones generated or even a couple and then all that goes to waste a llong with skill cooldowns because the mob dies. In open world PVE you are essentially playing without shattering or clones because of how quickly mobs tend to be burned down. The clones either need to do an AOE detonate where they stand or remain retargetable for a few seconds.

With the way it works now and the over reliance on shattering your DPS varies wildly from serviceable to non existent.

Agreed. In PvE I like 98% of the time don't shatter and just rely on phantasmal swordsmen, disenchanter, signet of ether etc... and the only shatter I ever use is for distortion because that obviously makes the more sense to use than the others (due to enemies dying before clones reach etc...). I don't know, I just hope we get something good for EoD...if its another shatter-based spec then it's a complete write-off and chrono will continue to be the only viable spec sadly...

[Jokubas.4265]

I haven't voted because I'm not really sure how to categorize my opinion yet.

I would love to see something more bold with the next Elite Specialization. I'm also not sure how feasible it is. In a lot of ways, the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer has a foundational flaw that would require a major rework to properly deal with.

(Disclaimer: While my ability to solo shows me that I'm not terrible at the game, I regularly see players, even other Mesmers, doing a lot better than me, so I'm clearly not great at builds either.)

Here's the thing. Whether you like them or not, the Shatter skills are our F skills. They're supposed to be our main feature.

The problem is... it's backwards? Shatter skills are the finisher to a specific kind of build, not the pieces that you use to make a combo that you finish with your build.

When I first started playing, I prioritized setting up my Phantasms and almost never touched my F skills. Nowadays, I have a much more efficient Shatter build, but it's a very narrow build in order to keep the Shatters going. It doesn't really make sense that the main feature of the class limits your build.

Looking back, I think it would make more sense if it was the F skills that dealt with your illusions, and Shatters be on the weapons or utilities. For instance:F1: Summons a clone that does no damage but looks like you. Short cooldown.F2: Summons a phantasm with your current weapon. Deals damage but is transparent. Moderate cooldown.F3: Randomly shuffles the position of you and your illusions. Moderate cooldown.

Then the F skills would properly involve the main feature of the class, the illusions, while allowing a variety of builds that utilize the illusions in different ways. Instead of the F skills being something that works best with certain builds, and doesn't mesh well with one of the class' actual main features: the phantasm illusions. This would smooth out the access all builds have to the core feature, and make the question what you do with the main feature, instead of the question being whether or not the F skills even make sense with your build.

This would also have opened up the Elite Specializations the freedom to play much more heavily with the main feature of the class (without necessarily replacing it entirely). The Mirage's Mirage Mirror skills would have been great F replacements in this situation as things that fill a similar role but reimagine that part of the class. In the above example, instead of summoning a clone at the location, it could summon a Mirage Mirror.Chronomancer could have handled this in a couple of ways. Either the clones and phantasms could have altered, time-based gimmicks (like the summoned phantasm now repeats your last skill specifically instead of just making an attack based on the weapon), or it could have replaced the clones and phantasms entirely with something like: "Summons a Continuum Rift that resets the position of the first ally or enemy that steps within it."

In such a situation, we could also get a more Guild Wars 1-themed Elite Specialization that replaces the physical illusions with directly debuffing versions of them (like the reverse barrier idea mentioned earlier).

Incidentally, one thing that's always bugged me about the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer's illusions is that... they're not illusions. In Guild Wars 1, they tormented your target, but were otherwise imaginary. In Guild Wars 2, they physically exist for some reason, and it's a weird balance problem. Why do illusions need health or be targetable to begin with (at least any that doesn't just reflect your own for the sake of deception)? How do you root something that doesn't actually exist? How do you damage a person who isn't really there? There are other ways to balance them, like the now-existing-anyway idea of phantasms going away after one attack, or even something like all illusions disperse upon the Mesmer being downed (which would require rebalancing other aspects of the Mesmer, but actually fits really well into the flavor of the usual result when an illusionist finally has their real self sussed out).

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

Nah. This is just far too one-dimensional of a thought process.Even if you replaced shatters with a totally new mechanic, there's no way the devs just let you keep phantasms & clones up. It would be more than a little silly for there to not be a mechanic that consumes phantasms/clones.

Rather, what I want are for the shatters for the next elite spec to be wildly different from the shatters on core mesmer. Instead of you blowing them up for huge initial damage, condi pressure, or daze. Maybe you blow them up for auras, fields, or group support.

Hell, maybe you even have a shatter where its main thing is trading all of your clones/phantasms for a new phantasm.

Or you even create an ammo mechanic, where F4/F5 consumes clones/phantasms, and gives you ammo for other shatters. Those shatters could give you damage, support, utility. W.e.

The important part isn't whether or not we have shatters. The important part is that whatever it is it needs to be distinct enough from the original core shatters, that those new abilities alone make it so someone would want to run the build in different situations.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Remember in the wiki it sometimes says trait was updated to reflect the elite mechanics. So they could update shatter traits to do something else for this new espec. It would be a trade-off of course OR they could keep the shatter 1-4 and just have them do a different effect instead of removing clones. So many possibilities really.

[Tseison.4659]

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Nah. This is just far too one-dimensional of a thought process.Even if you replaced shatters with a totally new mechanic, there's no way the devs just let you keep phantasms & clones up. It would be more than a little silly for there to not be a mechanic that consumes phantasms/clones.

Rather, what I want are for the shatters for the next elite spec to be wildly different from the shatters on core mesmer. Instead of you blowing them up for huge initial damage, condi pressure, or daze. Maybe you blow them up for auras, fields, or group support.

Hell, maybe you even have a shatter where its main thing is trading all of your clones/phantasms for a new phantasm.

Or you even create an ammo mechanic, where F4/F5 consumes clones/phantasms, and gives you ammo for other shatters. Those shatters could give you damage, support, utility. W.e.

The important part isn't whether or not we have shatters. The important part is that whatever it is it needs to be distinct enough from the original core shatters, that those new abilities alone make it so someone would want to run the build in different situations.

Yeah those examples aren’t ‘distinct’ enough either because they still cause effects upon being shattered which is literally what they do now....

Please look at other professions and see that their mechanics actually got enhanced/changed. I’ll just swing the necro as an example; where core and reaper gave you forms and then the recent one took that away but used it in a support way.

Then we got Mirage which oh look, did nothing new for our shatter mechanic either and they only gave the class a new dodge only because they know they shoe-horned the profession into shatters and don’t know how to make something new out of it.

And as I stated....they need to be removed or changed into something unique and different instead of blowing up in your face which can be a dps loss in PvP/WvW if: target dies, out of range, stealths, clones die before reaching etc.

[Tseison.4659]

@HotDelirium.7984 said:Remember in the wiki it sometimes says trait was updated to reflect the elite mechanics. So they could update shatter traits to do something else for this new espec. It would be a trade-off of course OR they could keep the shatter 1-4 and just have them do a different effect instead of removing clones. So many possibilities really.

I agree with this because they made adjustments to shroud and beastmode to work hand and hand with the traits. So they could do the same, but it would be great to get something new and not the usual clones blowing up as it’s not a reliable mechanic (in pvp/wvw).

[Senqu.8054]

To be honest, shatters in combination with the current clone mechanic should generally disappear. Just make clones to be like phantasms and let them perform 1 attack before they die or some shit and give us hexes instead of shatters -.-

[HotDelirium.7984]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:Remember in the wiki it sometimes says trait was updated to reflect the elite mechanics. So they could update shatter traits to do something else for this new espec. It would be a trade-off of course OR they could keep the shatter 1-4 and just have them do a different effect instead of removing clones. So many possibilities really.

I agree with this because they made adjustments to shroud and beastmode to work hand and hand with the traits. So they could do the same, but it would be great to get something new and not the usual clones blowing up as it’s not a reliable mechanic (in pvp/wvw).

I had this "Veilborn" elite spec idea where the character is a permanent clone of the individual. (obviously the real person is somewhere else) It is somewhat of a funny elite since your literal doppelganger is out there but they are a copy of you so that might not be a bad thing; you are the Commander after all. I didn't bother to hardcore develop it but had ideas of replacing the shatter skill with a consume mechanic possibly, the phantasms don't convert into clones etc etc. They can certainly take it however far they want to go with the spaghetti code hehe

[Tseison.4659]

@Senqu.8054 said:To be honest, shatters in combination with the current clone mechanic should generally disappear. Just make clones to be like phantasms and let them perform 1 attack before they die or some kitten and give us hexes instead of shatters -.-

Great minds think alike <3

@HotDelirium.7984 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:

@HotDelirium.7984 said:Remember in the wiki it sometimes says trait was updated to reflect the elite mechanics. So they could update shatter traits to do something else for this new espec. It would be a trade-off of course OR they could keep the shatter 1-4 and just have them do a different effect instead of removing clones. So many possibilities really.

I agree with this because they made adjustments to shroud and beastmode to work hand and hand with the traits. So they could do the same, but it would be great to get something new and not the usual clones blowing up as it’s not a reliable mechanic (in pvp/wvw).

I had this "Veilborn" elite spec idea where the character is a permanent clone of the individual. (obviously the real person is somewhere else) It is somewhat of a funny elite since your literal doppelganger is out there but they are a copy of you so that might not be a bad thing; you are the Commander after all. I didn't bother to hardcore develop it but had ideas of replacing the shatter skill with a consume mechanic possibly, the phantasms don't convert into clones etc etc. They can certainly take it however far they want to go with the spaghetti code hehe

The spec reminds me a bit about the White Mantle Mesmer which if you search up what it does or if you’ve fought one in bloodstone fen, they have this unique mechanic where, if you defeat it, the real Mesmer gets revealed.

So it’s almost like the Mesmer is cloaked in an illusion/clone and the only way to actually damage the Mesmer is by destroying that “veil.” I think this would be perfect for them and could serve as an almost “shroud” for the Mesmers.

Then when it comes to shatters, they can just have them go off at the Mesmers location but the shatters would be stronger or cause different effects.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Tseison.4659 said:Yeah those examples aren’t ‘distinct’ enough either because they still cause effects upon being shattered which is literally what they do now....

You do realize "skill causes effects upon being used" is literally every skill in the game, right? And every skill in every game ever.

@Tseison.4659 said:Please look at other professions and see that their mechanics actually got enhanced/changed. I’ll just swing the necro as an example; where core and reaper gave you forms and then the recent one took that away but used it in a support way.

Necro's really not a good argument against what I said. If anything, what I said is exactly the same train of thought as Scourge.Also, core shroud is also a supporting ability if you want it to be.

Then we got Mirage which oh look, did nothing new for our shatter mechanic either and they only gave the class a new dodge only because they know they shoe-horned the profession into shatters and don’t know how to make something new out of it.

Along with a new weapon ability upon dodge, and truck load more mobility available in its kit overall. Mirage is a thief clone. It was literally meant to be a dueling spec.

And then ofc you fail to mention Chrono, because Chrono F4 kinda dumpsters your whole argument. The amount of things continuum split opens up in the game is insanity. The massive damage combos, the support combos, etc. It was so much insanity that it needed half a billion nerfs. Granted I'd say in a lot of ways the devs were mistaken in some of their nerfs. But the point remains. Chono's shatters are its own thing that completely changes how you play mesmer.

And as I stated....they need to be removed or changed into something unique and different instead of blowing up in your face which can be a dps loss in PvP/WvW if: target dies, out of range, stealths, clones die before reaching etc.

That's kind of the point.

[Puck.3697]

No.

I really like the shatter concept and it's mesmers unique thing. No game has something like this mechanic and I find it hard to beleive people made mesmers because they didn't want it.

Imho I'd rather see shatter have a new take on it.

Like for example. Instead of using the shatters to explode at the target I'd like to see us absorb our own images to gain resources to then expend into burst combos or maybe fuel a strong burst attack.

[Daishi.6027]

Yes, get rid of shatters and phantasms too, and give us proper attacks that aren't easily thwarted by the terrible AI pathing.1 button one = clean attack with a hitbox that applies instantaneously after the cast time. If any travel time exists; be linear, fast, and not cleavable and kite-able.

You people who want something unique, special, class defining... Ya well, we have a barely class, and two elite specs like that already; How about something efficient that works and does solid damage, and functions in a mode that doesn't have targets virtually standing still and resources crutched by massive AoE resistance?

[Jables.4659]

@"Axl.8924" said:They should just make the clones last longer and buff the hp so clones are better and just use the destruction of clones as some sorta way to make the clones stronger somehow

That's how it was back in vanilla GW2. Its been eight years so I'm not 100% on all of the details, but signet of illusions used to increase clone health as a passive (and I think base clone health was also larger) but this was nerfed to provide additional counter-play to Mesmer. For some reason I'm also tempted to say that there was a trait in inspiration that increased the health of either clones or phantasms (probably phantasms), but I may be confusing that with Protected Phantasms (phantasms spawn with aegis) being in a different spot in the trait-line or just being a more likely pick since phantasm builds were much more of a thing back then. Its hard to keep the "Inspiration timeline" straight as that trait-line has been messed with so much over the years.

Clone destruction also used to be a widely used Mesmer archtype back in the day. As with tankier clones, it was dropped to provide more counter-play to Mesmer. It was an understandable nerf. Either the opponent left the clones alone and they would slowly kill their enemy with conditions, or they killed the clones and their on-death effects would kill them even faster. It was a lose-lose situation and very few things stood a chance against that kind of build. It was fun though, you'd run double energy sigils and use your dodges to create clone explosions via the clone-cap system.

[Azazel.7536]

I could imagine the shatter skills to have a passive nature, depending on how you build your mesmer instead of shattering them for a little damage or condi/boons. They literally feel like an unnecessary urgency which you want to summon just to shatter them. How about trying to make them persist as long as possible this time? Certain skills could passively spawn clones with retaliation, and once you create the third clone, it creates a mortal phantasm. However, there would be a counterpart to this - whenever the phantasm gets hit 3 times, it automatically shatters itself for a chosen passive shatter effect and you have to build up the clones again..

Of course, it may not sound like a completely viable option since many builds are connected via shatter skills, but some of the traits would work even as a passive effect instead of its current active counterpart. I dont know, some kind of a shift from the monotonous approach to this feature would be welcome. The attempt to make chrono shatters "something different" still resulted in...just shatters xD To have illusions like a battle companion instead of a shattering bombardment would feel better. The clones still do a crap damage, so it would not hurt any mesmer haters that much in the battle. In Pve it would be a nice twist to the gameplay and strategy planning.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Azazel.7536" said:How about trying to make them persist as long as possible this time? Certain skills could passively spawn clones with retaliation, and once you create the third clone, it creates a mortal phantasm.

They could make them passive skills like "stances". You activate F1, then it gives you its bonus as long as it's activated, and you switch to others as needed, giving you other bonuses and tradeoffs mid combat.

That still requires a complete rework of phantasm and clone generating skills as there's nothing to do with them without shatters, and the way they currently are, if they stay clones, then you practically lose the usefullness of 75% of your skills, weapon and utility. Because clones do no damage and have no practical use besides shattering. (47% of statistics on line are made up)

[Salt Mode.3780]

Honestly Shatter and clones are the one thing that makes mesmer stand out from other classes. Having shatters removed and just damage skill is really no different then just rehashed skills from other classes.Not to mention based on the one dodge nerf you honestly think they are able to come up with something meaningful that retains the identity of mesmer while providing new mechanics unique to mesmers? I mean remember the promise for chronomancers release HoT? (Alacrity use to be a mesmer exclusive thing)Back then shatters weren't a issue, it became an issue when they decided to repeatedly nerf the clone hp while power creep was getting out of hand.

[Tseison.4659]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:Honestly Shatter and clones are the one thing that makes mesmer stand out from other classes. Having shatters removed and just damage skill is really no different then just rehashed skills from other classes.Not to mention based on the one dodge nerf you honestly think they are able to come up with something meaningful that retains the identity of mesmer while providing new mechanics unique to mesmers? I mean remember the promise for chronomancers release HoT? (Alacrity use to be a mesmer exclusive thing)Back then shatters weren't a issue, it became an issue when they decided to repeatedly nerf the clone hp while power creep was getting out of hand.

There’s really nothing more to discuss when there’s more flaws to the clone/shatter mechanic than there are pros and nothing about this makes them “stand out - and bring anything “unique.”

As myself and countless others have written, if not removed then they NEED to be changed into something else that’s not revolved around exploding clones for effects.

[Azazel.7536]

I am surprised that no one really mentioned how often the shattered illusions can miss their target, thus leaving mesmer to be a semi-performing character who has to otherwise think of another strategy to fight.

For this elite specialisation, the solution to illusions should be concentrated on amplifying the mesmer itself (finally). Make the clones some sort of "guardians" who temporarily reflect or absorb damage for the Mesmer, and shatter them for a PASSIVE effect transfered on your weapon skills.

Example: F1 - Passive Mind wrack: Your weapon skills deal increased damage for 5 sec....F2 - Passive Cry of Frustration - Your weapon skills inflict confusion for 5 sec . F3 - Your skills increase Quickness by 2 sec for 5 second duration. F4 with its distortion could be the only real passive and could occur for 0,5 sec after you activate any of the previous three shatters, because 1 second distortion in 50 seconds does not very much sound like a profession-exclusive attribute. But I guess that is too much to ask for because even mirage got its distortion replaced by Protection boon :x

If people say that even this would require a lot of reworks, then you deliberately tolerate the current status of the shatters and you do not want to experiment with possibilites that could finally rank this profession up a little. However, I do not want the next espec to be insanely OP, because that would once again result in a cascade of tremendous nerfs. I was just implying that maybe the problem is not necessarily in either the clones or the mesmer, but the function how they affect each other and how the operate in practice. This setting would offer a new vision of the illusions, which could this time represent buffs to the mesmer itself, rather than chasing down the targets in order to deliver their frequently missing blows. Can you imagine how could it look like if, this time, the clones would not hunt their prey, but instead, would run against u and buff you up with a tiny explosion? I even think it would not require any significant changes to the current traitlines, it would only go from active shatters to passive buffs.

Anyway, whatever the spec will be, I hope it won't require 3 nerfs in its existence which will butcher it completely.