Tengu possible next playable race?

[Teratus.2859]

@Leo G.4501 said:Some points of contention I have with your opinion:

@Teratus.2859 said:I get it.. I'd like a Tengu or a Kodan or a Dwarf as well and

I'd love for your race to actually matter

and play some role in the game outside of defining your appearance and voice, but it's not happening.

On one hand, you understand that race is mostly (if not completely) cosmetic. Ok, so what difference is there between asking for a new race and more skins? If it doesn't actually matter, why add any cosmetics at all?

Adding new skins doesn't completely break the established lore of the game like adding new playable races would.

The world was built the way it was to tell a story and that story dictated that certain races would be absent almost entirely from playing major roles like the 5 playable races do.You can't retcon 8 years of ongoing world building just because some people want a Tengu or Dwarf Commander.. it's such an unrealistic request and such a massive amount of work would be needed to implement something like that as well which could just as easily be replicated with a tonic item.New home hubs, new personal story missions, new or modified starter zones, new voice acting for 8 years worth of content, fine tuning every single existing armour and outfit skin across 2 genders and 3 armour classes for every new race added to ensure there are no major clipping problems and that's just the beginning.

You don't have to be a developer nor even have a decent grasp on game design to have some idea of how much work would need to go into adding a new race like that.For the most part it's common sense to get an idea of the kind of workload something like this would require.. and like I said, the end result of doing all of that work is nothing more than a cosmetic benefit.. something you could just as easily get from a tonic toy.

If your character's race actually mattered from a gameplay perspective (Which I do support they should) then there would be a hell of a lot more justification for adding new races to the game, but they don't matter like that and they are almost entirely cosmetic so the best option is to just give people a Tengu, Dwarf, Largos etc combat tonic.There's no point wasting months of developer's time screwing up the integrity of 8 years of game lore just so people can have a new cosmetic.. that time and effort is far better spent on other things like making new content or improving some areas of the existing game that could really use the time and attention.. hell even putting more shiny junk in the gem store is a better use of time and resources than doing this would be.. >.<

@Teratus.2859 said:The only way I can see new races being added without completely screwing up the game is if they are added after! the Elder Dragon storyline is finished and we move on to a whole new isolated sequel storyline.. a GW2.2 if you will.That would mean the new races would not have access to the personal story nor any of the existing storyline up to this point, though they would be able to play on all existing maps etc.They would start their fresh new stories chronologically after the Elder Dragons have been dealt with.. and these new characters would not be "The Commander" either, though they might fill the role as a successor eventually.That's the only way this kind of thing will work right imo.

There are many different avenues one could take. There is certainly more than just one. At this point, however, it's closer to a guessing game whether they add a new race or not, much less what probable ways do they have to implement it.

Technically yes.. though i'd say the odds are definitely lopsided.It's certainly not a 50/50 and if Anet do decide this is something worth exploring it will come as a surprise to a lot of people, even those who want new races as many of them from what i've seen over the years also do consider new races to be a long shot.

Also, curious: how many players are out there replaying/grinding the old story instances after they already beat them on their 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 12th alt? I'm sure there are some out there but I'm mostly wondering if a new race were added but could only play up to a certain point in the "Personal Story", how many would be disappointed compared to the amount estimated by forum posters trying to shoehorn their limited perspective on the matter?

Logically it makes sense to do it as I suggested and add new races as a new generation of character's that start their journey after the Elder Dragon story ends.It's a sensible solution to avoid all of the conflicting lore problems, plus it gives both new and old players a new starting point so they can jump right into newer content with a fresh character without feeling like they have to play through the last 8 years of story content to "catch up".

Anet has done this exact same thing before in Gw1 as well when they opted to make stand alone games instead of expansions.Both Factions and Nightfall were entirely self contained stories that you could start in as a new character and play through completely without needing to have played the previous release.So it is a tried and tested solution which could easily be applied to this problem in Gw2 as well.Personally I believe it's possibly the best way for Anet to give most people a win on this topic.. or at least a good compromise.

By all means feel free to disagree though that's fine, but enough with the passive aggressive jabs.. no need for that crap.

[Leo G.4501]

It only takes a slight bit of prodding to get hyperbolic simplifications thrown into the mix.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Adding new skins doesn't completely break the established lore of the game like adding new playable races would.

The world was built the way it was to tell a story and that story dictated that certain races would be absent almost entirely from playing major roles like the 5 playable races do.You can't retcon 8 years of ongoing world building just because some people want a Tengu or Dwarf Commander.. it's such an unrealistic request and such a massive amount of work would be needed to implement something like that as well which could just as easily be replicated with a tonic item.New home hubs, new personal story missions, new or modified starter zones, new voice acting for 8 years worth of content, fine tuning every single existing armour and outfit skin across 2 genders and 3 armour classes for every new race added to ensure there are no major clipping problems and that's just the beginning.

You don't have to be a developer nor even have a decent grasp on game design to have some idea of how much work would need to go into adding a new race like that.For the most part it's common sense to get an idea of the kind of workload something like this would require.. and like I said, the end result of doing all of that work is nothing more than a cosmetic benefit.. something you could just as easily get from a tonic toy.

If your character's race actually mattered from a gameplay perspective (Which I do support they should) then there would be a hell of a lot more justification for adding new races to the game, but they don't matter like that and they are almost entirely cosmetic so the best option is to just give people a Tengu, Dwarf, Largos etc combat tonic.There's no point wasting months of developer's time screwing up the integrity of 8 years of game lore just so people can have a new cosmetic.. that time and effort is far better spent on other things like making new content or improving some areas of the existing game that could really use the time and attention.. hell even putting more shiny junk in the gem store is a better use of time and resources than doing this would be.. >.<

Adding a new race doesn't completely break the game. It doesn't retcon 8 years of world building either. It would only do that if implemented the way you're rationalizing your opponent and disregarding the "dozens" and "thousands" of repeated posts that bring "nothing new" to the argument.

See what I did there? Even if these threads keep surfacing, repeating the same talking points or rehashing the same ideas unnecessarily, there also come the same criticisms that completely ignore, overlook, dismiss or just never read the other suggestions or compromises. We'll complain at the ignorant dreamers making repeat threads and give a pass to the critics that rebut with the same tired excuses.

As for knowing the work involved: I doubt anyone is claiming that it wouldn't be work...some may even be underestimating the amount of work involved but you have completely sidestepped my point that THAT ISN'T AN ARGUING POINT FOR YOU because you aren't doing it. The devs are. Since we're batting talking points back and forth, I can serve up some alternative suggestion to get around a hurdle but I don't appreciating you returning my serve with a damned excuse for someone else. It's basically a non-argument saying I served it too hard or you didn't have your racket ready.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Logically it makes sense to do it as I suggested and add new races as a new generation of character's that start their journey after the Elder Dragon story ends.It's a sensible solution to avoid all of the conflicting lore problems, plus it gives both new and old players a new starting point so they can jump right into newer content with a fresh character without feeling like they have to play through the last 8 years of story content to "catch up".

Anet has done this exact same thing before in Gw1 as well when they opted to make stand alone games instead of expansions.Both Factions and Nightfall were entirely self contained stories that you could start in as a new character and play through completely without needing to have played the previous release.So it is a tried and tested solution which could easily be applied to this problem in Gw2 as well.Personally I believe it's possibly the best way for Anet to give most people a win on this topic.. or at least a good compromise.

By all means feel free to disagree though that's fine, but enough with the passive aggressive jabs.. no need for that kitten.

Branched main story scenario is certainly a suggestion. If I go back far enough in my posts, I'm certain I suggested it way back after HoT release. You don't even need to wait until journey-end for that. But again, that's only one way. I've been having this discussion for quite a while and find it a bit laughable the same battle is being fought in the same trenches without either side gaining any ground. It's just now there's a lot less ammo to use and less will to fight.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Obtena.7952 said:Probably one of the most unrealistic things to want to happen at this point.

Unfortunately so. If we get a new playable race, I'll be eating a broom (German saying ;) ).

[coso.9173]

not to rain on anyone's parade but if the devs are already always saying it's hard to make new armor pieces because they have to fit it to every different body and rig, I don't see them adding another new race that has yet another new rig. unless they coud fit it to another race's, but hard to imagine.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"coso.9173" said:I don't see them adding another new race that has yet another new rig. unless they coud fit it to another race's, but hard to imagine.

It has also already been mentioned that Tengu share the same "rig" with the Charr.

[Astyrah.4015]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:its important to remember that the developers themselves have stated it's much easier for them to track these requests and the discussion over them if they take place in a central area rather than being spammed out across multiple threads.

we can atleast thank the silent moderators who merge all the redundant threads into the respective [Merged] thread.

i just wonder why there isnt for all these "new race" // "add x race" discussions i've yet to see a "add this/that race" megathread/merged thread here

[coso.9173]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"coso.9173" said:I don't see them adding another new race that has yet another new rig. unless they coud fit it to another race's, but hard to imagine.

It has also already been mentioned that Tengu share the same "rig" with the Charr.

they do? it does have similarities, but I've always thought they look much less hunched than the Charr

[kharmin.7683]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"MokahTGS.7850" said:As a side note, everyone that says "this has been discussed before" or "it will never happen" or "stop bringing this dead horse topic back up" don't seem to understand that this is the purpose of this forum. All voices talking. There are no absolutes when it comes to these topics. The addition of mounts to the game is proof that dead horse topics can and do have impact in the game direction. You don't like someone's opinion or idea? Great, that's your freedom...you get your say, and so do they. The arrogant mob shouting down people's ideas is a cancer that should be purged. Be respectful, be humble, and state your opinion. Understand that everyone here can and should do the same.I think that the problem is the topic continues to re-surface without adding anything new to the conversation. Pretty much everything has been said already in the threads I linked in my earlier post.I'm more than willing to engage in a discussion on this topic if something new were added to the discourse.

Funnily enough, the threads you linked came after this thread. If it's a problem that new people decide to chime in on the topic using another thread, why don't you ask the threads to be merged? Or would you rather new posters not be able to participate in old discussions?

They are not after this thread. They are from past years. And I do ask for threads to be merged. It doesn't always happen. I shouldn't have to ask, though. People should simply use the forums search function.

[Yggranya.5201]

@"kharmin.7683" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117814/tengu-could-be-a-useable-races-on-eodhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/101886/if-tengu-becomes-playablehttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/105085/playable-tengu-ideahttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/105334/chance-of-tengu-playable-race-in-the-new-expansion

Ah, progress. Good on you.

Anyway, it seems unlikely that a new race would be added since anet is unable to make the existing armor sets work on anything other than humans. As far as i know. So i ask: Do they even work on humans?

[Teratus.2859]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Adding new skins doesn't completely break the established lore of the game like adding new playable races would.

The world was built the way it was to tell a story and that story dictated that certain races would be absent almost entirely from playing major roles like the 5 playable races do.You can't retcon 8 years of ongoing world building just because some people want a Tengu or Dwarf Commander.. it's such an unrealistic request and such a massive amount of work would be needed to implement something like that as well which could just as easily be replicated with a tonic item.New home hubs, new personal story missions, new or modified starter zones, new voice acting for 8 years worth of content, fine tuning every single existing armour and outfit skin across 2 genders and 3 armour classes for every new race added to ensure there are no major clipping problems and that's just the beginning.

You don't have to be a developer nor even have a decent grasp on game design to have some idea of how much work would need to go into adding a new race like that.For the most part it's common sense to get an idea of the kind of workload something like this would require.. and like I said, the end result of doing all of that work is nothing more than a cosmetic benefit.. something you could just as easily get from a tonic toy.

If your character's race actually mattered from a gameplay perspective (Which I do support they should) then there would be a hell of a lot more justification for adding new races to the game, but they don't matter like that and they are almost entirely cosmetic so the best option is to just give people a Tengu, Dwarf, Largos etc combat tonic.There's no point wasting months of developer's time screwing up the integrity of 8 years of game lore just so people can have a new cosmetic.. that time and effort is far better spent on other things like making new content or improving some areas of the existing game that could really use the time and attention.. hell even putting more shiny junk in the gem store is a better use of time and resources than doing this would be.. >.<

Adding a new race doesn't completely break the game. It doesn't retcon 8 years of world building either. It would only do that if implemented the way you're rationalizing your opponent and disregarding the "dozens" and "thousands" of repeated posts that bring "nothing new" to the argument.

See what I did there? Even if these threads keep surfacing, repeating the same talking points or rehashing the same ideas unnecessarily, there also come the same criticisms that completely ignore, overlook, dismiss or just never read the other suggestions or compromises. We'll complain at the ignorant dreamers making repeat threads and give a pass to the critics that rebut with the same tired excuses.

And yet no suggestions or compromises are even being quoted to prove your point here.Where are all those good or reasonable ideas you support?.. because a lot of us have been in these discussions for years and we haven't seen many if any that we believe hold genuine merit.Other's here are giving their reasons or quoting other ideas they think could work, just as we are as to why we don't think it would work.A lot of the rehashing of ideas and counters still matter because they keep being made, that's why it keeps going on and on and why some of us are so tired of the subject.If you want to bring something new to the subject then by all means do it, be the change you want.

You say it won't mess with the established game world but that is simply not true.The reasons why the Commander cannot be a Tengu, a Largos, a Kodan, a Skritt, a Quaggan, An Exalted, A Dwarf, An Awakened, A Dredge etc etc are grounded in how these races play their roles in the world and the cultures they have in the established timeline.Some of them are xenophobic, some of them are isolated, some of them have physical limitations, some of them have special circumstances in order for them to exist and a duty to uphold.. you can just say to hell with all that and lets make them playable and not screw up the world building this game has had since it was made.

That's why the best option is to add them in a method that is chronologically fitting, it avoids all those problems.

As for knowing the work involved: I doubt anyone is claiming that it wouldn't be work...some may even be underestimating the amount of work involved but you have completely sidestepped my point that THAT ISN'T AN ARGUING POINT FOR YOU because you aren't doing it. The devs are.

Yes i'm not making it, however I am aware that biggest drive in this game is it's story narrative.Gw2 is primarily a story focused MMO and therefore the Devs much like me and many others do give a damn about the integrity of this game's story and lore.If they implemented new races at the start of this story that directly conflicts with their race and cultural lore as so many others have asked for then it would only prove that they don't give a damn, that's what you're not getting here.The Commander can only be one of the main 5 races, that is how this world and it's story was designed.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Logically it makes sense to do it as I suggested and add new races as a new generation of character's that start their journey after the Elder Dragon story ends.It's a sensible solution to avoid all of the conflicting lore problems, plus it gives both new and old players a new starting point so they can jump right into newer content with a fresh character without feeling like they have to play through the last 8 years of story content to "catch up".

Anet has done this exact same thing before in Gw1 as well when they opted to make stand alone games instead of expansions.Both Factions and Nightfall were entirely self contained stories that you could start in as a new character and play through completely without needing to have played the previous release.So it is a tried and tested solution which could easily be applied to this problem in Gw2 as well.Personally I believe it's possibly the best way for Anet to give most people a win on this topic.. or at least a good compromise.

By all means feel free to disagree though that's fine, but enough with the passive aggressive jabs.. no need for that kitten.

Branched main story scenario is certainly a suggestion. If I go back far enough in my posts, I'm certain I suggested it way back after HoT release. You don't even need to wait until journey-end for that. But again, that's only one way. I've been having this discussion for quite a while and find it a bit laughable the same battle is being fought in the same trenches without either side gaining any ground. It's just now there's a lot less ammo to use and less will to fight.

A lot of people have suggested it, although usually as a means of replacing the commander at much earlier points of the story which are far less practical solutions overall.

The main difference between then and now though is the opportunity to do it right and the current knowledge that the Elder Dragon storyline is finally coming to an expected close in End of Dragons and Gw2 will be continuing on with new story afterwards.Those two factors didn't exist years ago when people were suggesting branching scenarios and that's why branching scenarios didn't make as much sense as some people believed them to.. but now with these new factors in play they do make sense as a more viable solution.

I'd say there's more ammo if anything since there are better ways today to make new races actually doable than there was 2-3-4-5 years ago.. although I agree there is probably less will to fight on it..As I said myself, I am tired of these conversations after all these years and as much as I like the idea of new playable races I don't want it unless it's done right, and all i've seen for years and years is suggestions that I either don't agree with or suggestions that conflict heavily with the existing game world.. which is far, far more important to me as a player who cares about this game's canon universe.

[Leo G.4501]

@Teratus.2859 said:And yet no suggestions or compromises are even being quoted to prove your point here.Where are all those good or reasonable ideas you support?.. because a lot of us have been in these discussions for years and we haven't seen many if any that we believe hold genuine merit.

Are you sure? Or have you just ignored the quotes? Or do you literally want me to inundate you with quotes from various threads, video links, etc?

@Teratus.2859 said:Other's here are giving their reasons or quoting other ideas they think could work, just as we are as to why we don't think it would work.A lot of the rehashing of ideas and counters still matter because they keep being made, that's why it keeps going on and on and why some of us are so tired of the subject.If you want to bring something new to the subject then by all means do it, be the change you want.

I've been down that road. You and I aren't even in disagreement for the most part. But what is the target here that tends to get ignored is the perfect being the destruction of the good....which is exactly why I target these types of arguments.

@Teratus.2859 said:You say it won't mess with the established game world but that is simply not true.The reasons why the Commander cannot be a Tengu, a Largos, a Kodan, a Skritt, a Quaggan, An Exalted, A Dwarf, An Awakened, A Dredge etc etc are grounded in how these races play their roles in the world and the cultures they have in the established timeline.Some of them are xenophobic, some of them are isolated, some of them have physical limitations, some of them have special circumstances in order for them to exist and a duty to uphold.. you can just say to hell with all that and lets make them playable and not screw up the world building this game has had since it was made.

Well you either don't believe your own suggestion, you've ignored my comment on said suggestion of yours and just don't have the literary chops to come up with other ideas besides putting the current dragons story on a chopping block and starting fresh. Like I said before and I'll repeat again: there are ways (some contrived, others elaborate and some quite simple and elegant) to add a new race without retconning everything.

@Teratus.2859 said:Yes i'm not making it, however I am aware that biggest drive in this game is it's story narrative.Gw2 is primarily a story focused MMO and therefore the Devs much like me and many others do give a kitten about the integrity of this game's story and lore.If they implemented new races at the start of this story that directly conflicts with their race and cultural lore as so many others have asked for then it would only prove that they don't give a kitten, that's what you're not getting here.The Commander can only be one of the main 5 races, that is how this world and it's story was designed.

The biggest drive is the story narrative? Could'a fooled me. So many are critical of the characters, writing, story and lore, you'd think most feel the story is a consequence of getting the next shiny object.

That being said, I've never been overly critical about the game's story or characters since I just acknowledge it as a video game's story but don't confuse that with not caring about story. Rather than hardwall others' arguments by using story continuity to support your stance, why not ask players other options or what they would do to get around such hurdles?

The obvious solution, being that race isn't a strong narrative distinction of the commander after a specific point in the personal story (and I don't care how many times you try to repeat it), is to just have a side story where a new Pact commander is appointed. This could be due to absence/dereliction, illness, promotion/succession (this already even happened) or a large variety of other reasons. This is not the hurdle you think it is.

No, the more likely issue is Aurene's Champion since that is a far more personalized circumstance that would require story steps in HoT.

@Teratus.2859 said:A lot of people have suggested it, although usually as a means of replacing the commander at much earlier points of the story which are far less practical solutions overall.

Then have I got a revelation for you: you could also use it to replace the commander much later in the overall story up to and including the end of the 3rd expansion.

@Teratus.2859 said:As I said myself, I am tired of these conversations after all these years and as much as I like the idea of new playable races I don't want it unless it's done right, and all i've seen for years and years is suggestions that I either don't agree with or suggestions that conflict heavily with the existing game world.. which is far, far more important to me as a player who cares about this game's canon universe.

Well fear not, I do not tire of these conversations. I will continue to partake in your stead, then. Although I have to warn you, I only occasionally glance at the forums anymore...so more like when I have the time, will I partake. Gotta fit in those breaks to keep myself fresh, you know.

[Juan.6124]

@Legend of Rogue.5394 said:and a healer class

Druid, tempest, scourge, engi, revenant and guardian can heal.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Nope

Also, quaggans should've never been in the game in the first place, let alone as a playable race

[Game of Bones.8975]

Just because Tengu have been shown in Cantha pics doesn't mean they will become a new character class (unless I have missed a teaser).I'm not voting against them, I just can't see adding a new playable race without any hype.

[Shadowsrb.6241]

why waste time on something that stupid like new race,new low level map,new story,new home town...and most people will just use levelups to skip that low level junk,even without its 4 days content.they could just make better fightable transformations...

[Teratus.2859]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And yet no suggestions or compromises are even being quoted to prove your point here.Where are all those good or reasonable ideas you support?.. because a lot of us have been in these discussions for years and we haven't seen many if any that we believe hold genuine merit.

Are you sure? Or have you just ignored the quotes? Or do you literally want me to inundate you with quotes from various threads, video links, etc?

I mean by you, I can't be expected to go looking all over the place for things to prove your point for you, that's your case to make to defend your stance.If you don't have any ideas yourself that too is fine you need only state as much, and it's fine to just disagree without offering an alternative as well.

But you did make an argument to contest mine, specifically that introducing new races wouldn't break the existing story.. but you've not backed that up with anything where as I've given plenty of examples of why I think it would break said existing story and why it wouldn't be a good idea to do it that way.That's pretty much the ground for the discussion more than anything but all you said to support your point is there are plenty of ways to do it..I don't disagree with you on that.. but that's a very vague answer to build on.

@Teratus.2859 said:Other's here are giving their reasons or quoting other ideas they think could work, just as we are as to why we don't think it would work.A lot of the rehashing of ideas and counters still matter because they keep being made, that's why it keeps going on and on and why some of us are so tired of the subject.If you want to bring something new to the subject then by all means do it, be the change you want.

I've been down that road. You and I aren't even in disagreement for the most part. But what is the target here that tends to get ignored is the perfect being the destruction of the good....which is exactly why I target these types of arguments.

Sorry but the way you worded that is confusing to me.. what do you mean by " the perfect being the destruction of the good"?

@Teratus.2859 said:You say it won't mess with the established game world but that is simply not true.The reasons why the Commander cannot be a Tengu, a Largos, a Kodan, a Skritt, a Quaggan, An Exalted, A Dwarf, An Awakened, A Dredge etc etc are grounded in how these races play their roles in the world and the cultures they have in the established timeline.Some of them are xenophobic, some of them are isolated, some of them have physical limitations, some of them have special circumstances in order for them to exist and a duty to uphold.. you can just say to hell with all that and lets make them playable and not screw up the world building this game has had since it was made.

Well you either don't believe your own suggestion, you've ignored my comment on said suggestion of yours and just don't have the literary chops to come up with other ideas besides putting the current dragons story on a chopping block and starting fresh. Like I said before and I'll repeat again: there are ways (some contrived, others elaborate and some quite simple and elegant) to add a new race without retconning everything.

You keep repeating this statement and as i've said I don't 100% disagree with the possibility it can be done somehow.But again you're not giving anything to back this stance.You say "some contrived, others elaborate and some quite simple and elegant" which suggests you've provided or at least seen other peoples ideas that you agree with but you provide no examples of them.

I'm also not suggesting putting the dragon story on a chopping block either.. That story is ending on it's own natural pace as it should.I am simply saying that once it is over and we move on to new stories and the future of Gw2 post Elder Dragons, it provides a good oppourtunity to consider this whole adding new races thing and the merits of doing it that way above all other suggested ways in the past.. many of which I just don't agree are good ideas.

@Teratus.2859 said:Yes i'm not making it, however I am aware that biggest drive in this game is it's story narrative.Gw2 is primarily a story focused MMO and therefore the Devs much like me and many others do give a kitten about the integrity of this game's story and lore.If they implemented new races at the start of this story that directly conflicts with their race and cultural lore as so many others have asked for then it would only prove that they don't give a kitten, that's what you're not getting here.The Commander can only be one of the main 5 races, that is how this world and it's story was designed.

The biggest drive is the story narrative? Could'a fooled me. So many are critical of the characters, writing, story and lore, you'd think most feel the story is a consequence of getting the next shiny object.

You can't satisfy everyone :)But I mean from a developer perspective Gw2 is primarily a story driven MMO.All the extra stuff the gameplay the maps etc it's all secondary to complement the story.The story dictates where we go and what we'll end up fighting and all that stuff.

But sure there will always be people who don't care about the story and just want to smack things or farm stuff or kill other players.. and more power to them if that's what they enjoy doing.But they're not going to be the main target audience when it comes to the game the developers want to make.. I mean just look at the competitive game to see that clearly on display lolIt's the story that drives Gw2 more than anything, I think most would agree on that even if they dislike or don't care for it.

That being said, I've never been overly critical about the game's story or characters since I just acknowledge it as a video game's story but don't confuse that with not caring about story. Rather than hardwall others' arguments by using story continuity to support your stance, why not ask players other options or what they would do to get around such hurdles?

I have been asking you for your suggestions or for you to quote other peoples suggestions that you support that are solutions to that lolBut you've been neglectful to share them out of what I assume is an assumption i'll just disregard them entirely to spite you for criticising my original post.

I can understand why you might feel that way since you also claim you've been around long enough to see many of these discussions, but it doesn't change that there is nowhere to go here without something.. a discussion is a back and fore after all and I can't agree or disagree with you if you don't offer anything to be considered.

The obvious solution, being that race isn't a strong narrative distinction of the commander after a specific point in the personal story (and I don't care how many times you try to repeat it), is to just have a side story where a new Pact commander is appointed. This could be due to absence/dereliction, illness, promotion/succession (this already even happened) or a large variety of other reasons. This is not the hurdle you think it is.

This I can work with thank you.Largely that hurdle depends heavily on the race in question, they are not all equal in this regard due to circumstances.For many of the desired races like Dwarves for example there are strong lore reasons for why they couldn't be the Commander, they don't live on the surface and join orders bar one exception of Ogden who serves as a sort of sole connection their race has to the surface world and vice versa.. you couldn't have other Dwarves just leave the depths and go adventuring around fighting other dragons, their entire race is dedicated to the singular purpose of fighting Primordus so adding playable Dwarves would conflict a lot with the in game lore and wouldn't make any sense.This is the whole reason for why Dwarves have only just come back into the story and haven't been a common sight over the last 8 years.

Similar reasons exist for many of the races people want to play as too which is why this such a contested problem and why the integrity of the story is always brought up to counter it.It's also why I think it is a far better solution to introduce them post Elder Dragon story as it just makes more sense that way.With all the dragons dead and the combined racial effort to make that happen there's no reason for the Tengu's Xenophobia anymore or for the Dwarves to to stay underground anymore or for the Kodan to keep fleeing anymore etcThey would be able to become more involved in the world outside their territories.Plus it's hell of a statement to have new races be added after your 3rd expansion.. that would certainly tell me that this game likely has a lot more years left in it.

No, the more likely issue is Aurene's Champion since that is a far more personalized circumstance that would require story steps in HoT.

Yeah that is also a big factor as well for why it's so difficult to do without the whole Commander ark being filled on the new race.. it's all connected together which is why I say things like breaking the story if it were done.It would be such a difficult thing to do that way and I just don't think the pros are worth risking so many cons.

@Teratus.2859 said:A lot of people have suggested it, although usually as a means of replacing the commander at much earlier points of the story which are far less practical solutions overall.

Then have I got a revelation for you: you could also use it to replace the commander much later in the overall story up to and including the end of the 3rd expansion.

I've heard that sort of thing too but how would you do that?The Commander is so integral to this storyline.. your relationships with your guild the whole Champion of Aurine thing you yourself mentioned it's all progressed over years of development and slow growth.How can you just throw that out and replace that commander with some unproven nobody who hasn't earned the right to be there?

Just look at the gap left by living world 1 and how frustrating it is that you don't get to meet and bond with the new generation of characters, I've heard from newer players so many times "who are these people why am I friends with them?.. what happened to Destiny's Edge?" when they move from the personal story to LW2..Replacing the Commander would be a similar problem with that lack of bonding gap but so much worse in my opinion.

I just can't see any way it can viably done during the Elder Dragon campaign without the new race starting right from the beginning of the story and that just causes too many conflicts with established lore depending on which races get added.. and that's just the lore problem.Then you have all the other stuff like the workload and the resource cost etc.. it's just not worth it doing it like that, not just for a cosmetic effect that could be still be added in other and better ways if it was in that much demand which I don't disagree that they are, myself included there too.

@Teratus.2859 said:As I said myself, I am tired of these conversations after all these years and as much as I like the idea of new playable races I don't want it unless it's done right, and all i've seen for years and years is suggestions that I either don't agree with or suggestions that conflict heavily with the existing game world.. which is far, far more important to me as a player who cares about this game's canon universe.

Well fear not, I do not tire of these conversations. I will continue to partake in your stead, then. Although I have to warn you, I only occasionally glance at the forums anymore...so more like when I have the time, will I partake. Gotta fit in those breaks to keep myself fresh, you know.

Hehe i'm not going anywhere, tired of some subjects or not i'm still fairly active here.But sure always make time for your breaks, they're good for you :)

[Teratus.2859]

Dupe post please delete!

[Leo G.4501]

@"Teratus.2859" said:Sorry but the way you worded that is confusing to me.. what do you mean by " the perfect being the destruction of the good"?

It's a rewording of the phrase "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" which means allowing the demand or desire of perfection affect the possibility of other favorable results. With the rewording, it's using the arguments for a new race having all the bells and whistles or nothing or that any compromise or limitation is wholly negative and negates any positives.

@"Teratus.2859" said:I mean by you, I can't be expected to go looking all over the place for things to prove your point for you, that's your case to make to defend your stance.If you don't have any ideas yourself that too is fine you need only state as much, and it's fine to just disagree without offering an alternative as well.

But you did make an argument to contest mine, specifically that introducing new races wouldn't break the existing story.. but you've not backed that up with anything where as I've given plenty of examples of why I think it would break said existing story and why it wouldn't be a good idea to do it that way.That's pretty much the ground for the discussion more than anything but all you said to support your point is there are plenty of ways to do it..I don't disagree with you on that.. but that's a very vague answer to build on.......You keep repeating this statement and as i've said I don't 100% disagree with the possibility it can be done somehow.But again you're not giving anything to back this stance.You say "some contrived, others elaborate and some quite simple and elegant" which suggests you've provided or at least seen other peoples ideas that you agree with but you provide no examples of them.

I'm also not suggesting putting the dragon story on a chopping block either.. That story is ending on it's own natural pace as it should.I am simply saying that once it is over and we move on to new stories and the future of Gw2 post Elder Dragons, it provides a good oppourtunity to consider this whole adding new races thing and the merits of doing it that way above all other suggested ways in the past.. many of which I just don't agree are good ideas.......I have been asking you for your suggestions or for you to quote other peoples suggestions that you support that are solutions to that lolBut you've been neglectful to share them out of what I assume is an assumption i'll just disregard them entirely to spite you for criticising my original post.

I can understand why you might feel that way since you also claim you've been around long enough to see many of these discussions, but it doesn't change that there is nowhere to go here without something.. a discussion is a back and fore after all and I can't agree or disagree with you if you don't offer anything to be considered.

I sense a bit of a pretentiousness in your requests. I'm usually skeptical in putting forward over explanations of ideas because usually the opponents pushing for elaboration rarely put in the effort to read, consider and fairly critique said elaboration but you asked for it [NOTE: the entirety of these links are not my content/posts and it's not all about just races....have fun]:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/270342https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12622/new-class-or-new-race/p1https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/2318/what-race-would-you-most-like-to-see-playable-and-why/p1https://tinyurl.com/5fatbd27https://tinyurl.com/57c56nuzhttps://tinyurl.com/ebz3yvrwhttps://tinyurl.com/kmw7fv87https://tinyurl.com/h8x87ex3http://bitly.ws/c3vNhttp://bitly.ws/c3vQhttp://bitly.ws/c3vShttp://bitly.ws/c3vWhttp://bitly.ws/c3vX

@"Teratus.2859" said:This I can work with thank you.Largely that hurdle depends heavily on the race in question, they are not all equal in this regard due to circumstances.For many of the desired races like Dwarves for example there are strong lore reasons for why they couldn't be the Commander, they don't live on the surface and join orders bar one exception of Ogden who serves as a sort of sole connection their race has to the surface world and vice versa.. you couldn't have other Dwarves just leave the depths and go adventuring around fighting other dragons, their entire race is dedicated to the singular purpose of fighting Primordus so adding playable Dwarves would conflict a lot with the in game lore and wouldn't make any sense.This is the whole reason for why Dwarves have only just come back into the story and haven't been a common sight over the last 8 years.

Similar reasons exist for many of the races people want to play as too which is why this such a contested problem and why the integrity of the story is always brought up to counter it.It's also why I think it is a far better solution to introduce them post Elder Dragon story as it just makes more sense that way.With all the dragons dead and the combined racial effort to make that happen there's no reason for the Tengu's Xenophobia anymore or for the Dwarves to to stay underground anymore or for the Kodan to keep fleeing anymore etcThey would be able to become more involved in the world outside their territories.Plus it's hell of a statement to have new races be added after your 3rd expansion.. that would certainly tell me that this game likely has a lot more years left in it.

Your suggestion certainly is ONE possibility but it is not the only one. I personally don't think it's good to require "finishing" the story line to do it as the majority of the world is enthralled in the conflict with the dragons. And what difference does it make if Primordus is dead now vs trying to make it dead with a new race? Even when defeated, the world doesn't just blink back to how it was...the world is forever changed. I think it's more a superfluous sidestep. Not saying it wouldn't be easier to implement new races after a certain point but so would just waiting for GW3.

@"Teratus.2859" said:I've heard that sort of thing too but how would you do that?The Commander is so integral to this storyline.. your relationships with your guild the whole Champion of Aurine thing you yourself mentioned it's all progressed over years of development and slow growth.How can you just throw that out and replace that commander with some unproven nobody who hasn't earned the right to be there?

Just look at the gap left by living world 1 and how frustrating it is that you don't get to meet and bond with the new generation of characters, I've heard from newer players so many times "who are these people why am I friends with them?.. what happened to Destiny's Edge?" when they move from the personal story to LW2..Replacing the Commander would be a similar problem with that lack of bonding gap but so much worse in my opinion.

I just can't see any way it can viably done during the Elder Dragon campaign without the new race starting right from the beginning of the story and that just causes too many conflicts with established lore depending on which races get added.. and that's just the lore problem.Then you have all the other stuff like the workload and the resource cost etc.. it's just not worth it doing it like that, not just for a cosmetic effect that could be still be added in other and better ways if it was in that much demand which I don't disagree that they are, myself included there too.

Have you ever thought maybe just not filling the Commander's shoes? Have a new suit of characters instead? No Taimi and Rox and Kasmere, etc but just another group doing other stuff? Or are we not in a world with other people doing other things? The whole prospect of a rag-tag group of adventurers doing great things to help save the world starts to lose its meaning when you're the ONLY ever rag-tag group of adventurers doing the good stuff.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Leo G.4501" said:It's a rewording of the phrase "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" which means allowing the demand or desire of perfection affect the possibility of other favorable results. With the rewording, it's using the arguments for a new race having all the bells and whistles or nothing or that any compromise or limitation is wholly negative and negates any positives.

I see, thanks for clarifying.Can't say I have ever heard that phrase before though, that's a new one to me.

Guess there is nothing but a conflict of opinion on that one though as you can flip the meaning for an equally valid argument.. that being a sacrifice of what is for something new.Generally you will always find that circumstance greatly divides people between those who demand the new at the expense of the old and those who demand we preserve the old at the expense of the new.. probably the best example of that in Gw2 is Lions Arch.Lot of people still hate the current one and prefer the old one while others much prefer the new one.. it's one of those can't please everyone situations lol

I do have to say I feel more in common with the latter group than the former though.. which is why I don't support nuking existing open world maps to put large changes of new content in them however that doesn't mean there isn't room for anything new at all.We can still have the new without sacrificing the old which one example of would be the Dragon Response Missions which all take place in old locations but do not impact the original maps in any way at all unlike say the Awakened invasions and the White Mantle Champions which do exist in the open world and can be quite confusing for newer players who don't understand the timeline of the game.

I sense a bit of a pretentiousness in your requests. I'm usually skeptical in putting forward over explanations of ideas because usually the opponents pushing for elaboration rarely put in the effort to read, consider and fairly critique said elaboration but you asked for it [NOTE: the entirety of these links are not my content/posts and it's not all about just races....have fun]:

That was a lot of links but could you narrow it down a bit to the comments etc that you personally agree with?I was asking specifically for ideas and suggestions that you agree with so we can discuss those ideas.Reading every comment in every link wouldn't serve any purpose unless I knew which ones you thought were good ideas.

I did check every link in there though and for the most part the threads were made by people who were largely saying more or less the same thing."I want a new race (mostly Tengu) because they are cool and I want to play one."

As I said before though I get that, I love Tengu myself as well but these are not arguments on how we can have Tengu or any other new race become playable in Gw2.Not without effecting the continuity of the main stroyline.The only thing that it proves is that there is a decent amount of demand for new playable races which was never a point of contention anyway.

There were a few original posts in there though that did offer suggestions on how it could be done but.. a lot of that was just a branching storyline at X point in the story which are suggestions i've seen over and over and over again for many years and I just don't agree that it would work.I disagree for the same reasons so many have repeated for years to counter those suggestions.. and the only reason those counters keep getting repeated is because they are valid counters to the same suggestions and requests.

The same lore reasons that dictate why these races do not play large roles in the game world for all these years still apply to why it would not make sense for the Commander to be one of those races.. and the Commander character is just to integrated into this Dragon story to replaced or removed from it.The timeline just cannot be messed with like that.

Even WP agrees in multiple of the videos you linked that having new races skip the existing story is the better option than retconning everything to fit them into the Commander storyline.

I've watched and enjoyed WP's content for years as well and I tend to agree with him a lot on most things.. probably the main and most recent thing I disagree with him on is the Racial specialization thing which is an idea i've seen quite a few times over the years.. I don't care for this one personally and would prefer an alternative method of improving the races that keeps them unique.

Your suggestion certainly is ONE possibility but it is not the only one. I personally don't think it's good to require "finishing" the story line to do it as the majority of the world is enthralled in the conflict with the dragons. And what difference does it make if Primordus is dead now vs trying to make it dead with a new race? Even when defeated, the world doesn't just blink back to how it was...the world is forever changed. I think it's more a superfluous sidestep. Not saying it wouldn't be easier to implement new races after a certain point but so would just waiting for GW3.

That's the thing though.. the world isn't really enthralled in the conflict at all and despite all the years of preaching that all races must unite to beat the dragons it actually hasn't happened in the game over the last 8 years outside of the main 5 races and a few lesser races like Skritt, Quaggans and Ogres and new factions like the Exalted and Awakened.

It is only now after 8 years that the Dragons are finally on the doorsteps of major races like the Tengu and the Dwarves and are pushing them into a fight that they cannot win without help.. and the same for the Kodan who have had our help countless times still have not joined the fight yet.. though I expect they will soon as there are still 3 factions left to join us in the Eye of the North after the Tengu.

Up until now they have all dealt with the weaker threats of dragon minions all alone and were content to do so that way but the world has changed and they don't have a choice anymore.. they must unify with other races and work together or they will be eradicated by the Dragons.This is a current plot point now in the new story.. again showing why it would be nonsensical and a huge retcon to go back and have these races made playable as the Commander character.. it just doesn't work well that way.

In a post Elder Dragon world there is far more ground for new races to play a role in future story's, you said yourself the world is forever changed and that's the whole point for why it would work better that way.There's no reason for the Tengu or any races to go back to what they were 8 years ago after finally realising the benefits of being part of a unified world.. not closed off from it like they have been for decades.. and them being so closed off and isolated in the first place is what makes them incompatible with the Commander role.

Have you ever thought maybe just not filling the Commander's shoes? Have a new suit of characters instead? No Taimi and Rox and Kasmere, etc but just another group doing other stuff? Or are we not in a world with other people doing other things? The whole prospect of a rag-tag group of adventurers doing great things to help save the world starts to lose its meaning when you're the ONLY ever rag-tag group of adventurers doing the good stuff.

That's exactly my point for why adding new races to start at a second sequel campaign after the Elder Dragon Story is the best way to do it.

This is not what people have asked for over all these years though, for the most part they just want the race playable.. they want their Tengu or Largos Commanders and that just doesn't work for many reasons.

Adding them at the start of the personal story to achieve the build up the Commander needs can't be done because it conflicts too heavily with established lore of those races.Adding them through a separate storyline that has the Commander being killed or replaced doesn't work due to how the story has been developed over 8 years.. the Commander is just too central to this storyline as is the buildup of the Commander character.

Adding them via a branching story that runs along side the main one.. ok that would definitely work but then you have to factor in how much work and attention this would require and how much that would impact the development of the main storyline as well and the only benefit to this would be a measly cosmetic effect.For this one the problem moves from a conflicting lore issue to a time and resources one.. which again is diminished heavily by there simply being a better time or better ways to do this.

Imo it's best after End of Dragons.A new race could be added in where your Tengu or Dwarf characters starting missions were playing a part in that final battle in End of Dragons from an entirely different perspective.. you could be one of the people who was responsible for taking down a powerful essential champion during that fight and gaining the respect of your race and allies which is what starts you off on your adventure in the new post dragon campaign.There would only need to be some very minor dialogue changes based on whether you are a first or second generation racial character going past that point and a few race exclusive story missions to set them up.It would be so much easier and more cost effective to introduce a new race that way rather than trying to make an expansion with multiple different storylines or trying to retcon 8 years of world building to force a new race in right at the start which is what many have asked for over the years.

[Leo G.4501]

@Teratus.2859 said:Guess there is nothing but a conflict of opinion on that one though as you can flip the meaning for an equally valid argument.. that being a sacrifice of what is for something new.Generally you will always find that circumstance greatly divides people between those who demand the new at the expense of the old and those who demand we preserve the old at the expense of the new.. probably the best example of that in Gw2 is Lions Arch.

That analogy isn't congruent. I can tell why you'd make that point but it doesn't work if you try to fit "new playable races" in the place of some variable. You say this because you're filing behind the "allocation of resources" point but I don't believe asking for new races is somehow "taking away" from someone's chance at keeping things the same. Again, you have the perspective that adding a new race would require retconning of content. I'm not going to repeat why I don't agree with your assessment so rather than continuously reiterating your perspective, you can just preface your perspective instead. Like:

"Because I believe adding new races can only be done by retconning content, adding a new race like you're requesting would change old content for players that might not want it changed."

Otherwise, it is not a congruent comparison.

@Teratus.2859 said:That was a lot of links but could you narrow it down a bit to the comments etc that you personally agree with?I was asking specifically for ideas and suggestions that you agree with so we can discuss those ideas.Reading every comment in every link wouldn't serve any purpose unless I knew which ones you thought were good ideas.

I'm afraid you're going to have to learn to skim. Skip over posts that mainly just argue back and forth. I read those threads myself and several of the posts in each either offer up a suggestion or criticize a suggestion for adding a new race. I quoted your requests, which had the air that I haven't made a suggestion or questioned weather I have my own ideas or not. I replied previously saying I've been down that road and said you can look for yourself. So just know that, yes, I have made suggestions. Everyone of those threads I posted in, I think the earliest dating back to 2016. You can further dig up more.

Moving onto an entirely new point:

@Teratus.2859 said:This is not what people have asked for over all these years though, for the most part they just want the race playable.. they want their Tengu or Largos Commanders and that just doesn't work for many reasons.

False. I have also read many suggestions critical of the whole Dragon-corruption storyline as well as the direct conflict with Dragons. Players do want varied content and stories. They don't just want to hear someone talk about how someone's city was ravage by dragon-corruption, they want to actively participate in said stories. They want more interactions and more lore that isn't directly in-line with the killing of the next big game. They want stories that focus on their race and profession and they DON'T want to just be the Commander following a story on rails. I am not sure where you've conjured that prospect from. That being said, this point isn't so much narrowed on new races but rather the scope of the storytelling of the game. The story-point of the Pact and the title Commander is now being used as a cudgel to beat the story into a box, both past and future content. I have no idea why it's even consistently brought up. Can it be a hurdle when introducing a new/different player character? Acknowledged. A story can still have other sides, though.

@Teratus.2859 said:Adding them at the start of the personal story to achieve the build up the Commander needs can't be done because it conflicts too heavily with established lore of those races.

Just to reiterate, the "5 races coming together" is the most insignificant attribute of the Commander themselves. No one attributes the greatness of the Commander's [insert race] ever. It's the PACT that has claim to that attribute and even then, only up to the point they get to talking with the other races as a story point.

@Teratus.2859 said:Adding them through a separate storyline that has the Commander being killed or replaced doesn't work due to how the story has been developed over 8 years.. the Commander is just too central to this storyline as is the buildup of the Commander character.

And saying something "doesn't work" isn't an argument. Like I mentioned before: you can write a short and elegant piece, a contrived piece, a logical but flat piece explaining if something happened to the old Commander. None of those choices "doesn't work" just because it's not something you would have done.

And again, replacing the Commander is merely one possibility.

@Teratus.2859 said:Adding them via a branching story that runs along side the main one.. ok that would definitely work but then you have to factor in how much work and attention this would require and how much that would impact the development of the main storyline as well and the only benefit to this would be a measly cosmetic effect.For this one the problem moves from a conflicting lore issue to a time and resources one.. which again is diminished heavily by there simply being a better time or better ways to do this.

And this touches back on the whole "the perfect being the destruction of the good" point. If something is going to seem too involved or require too much work, the logical response should be looking for easier means of accomplishing those goals, not doubling down to support your argument or principles. I mean, it's fine if that's what you want to do but it's purely illogical to me and makes me question why you are trying to waste my time.

@Teratus.2859 said:Imo it's best after End of Dragons.

And I disagree. There's no reason to repeat yourself.

Also here's a video by WP today about story writing, expansions and some other misc. subjects:

[Joote.4081]

I like the little skritt mice.

[Luthan.5236]

Tengu probably won't become a playable race. A further hint is that they seem to be an alied race now and they made a "Marshaling the Tengu" bonus event for the latest story chapter.

[Game of Bones.8975]

Why has no-one ever thought of this before?!?

(That's sarcasm, BTW)

[Blur.3465]

After seeing the updated models of the new tengu NPCs (one in EotN and the new tengu we meet in Dragon Response mission in Caledon) I have high hopes that we may actually see them as a playable race...otherwise why go through all this effort?Changes on the new tengu in EotN and Caledon forest NPC:

• Animated eyes
• Animated plumage and ears
• High-res textures
• New idle animation, they hunch and dig a bit, they also move their heads like a bird would!

Either they are being set to become a playable race; or ANet is setting Dominion of Winds as a big city in next release/expansion.I do hope it's going to be a playable race, it's literally what I want most and I'm already thinking about all the amazing customization we could get for these amazing birds!

[Linken.6345]

@Blur.3465 said:After seeing the updated models of the new tengu NPCs (one in EotN and the new tengu we meet in Dragon Response mission in Caledon) I have high hopes that we may actually see them as a playable race...otherwise why go through all this effort?Changes on the new tengu in EotN and Caledon forest NPC:

• Animated eyes
• Animated plumage and ears
• High-res textures
• New idle animation, they hunch and dig a bit, they also move their heads like a bird would!

Either they are being set to become a playable race; or ANet is setting Dominion of Winds as a big city in next release/expansion.I do hope it's going to be a playable race, it's literally what I want most and I'm already thinking about all the amazing customization we could get for these amazing birds!

They updated them in hot and we dident get them as playable race in path of fire so unlikely to get it now either.