Dragon Story Missions are boring and tedious - [Merged]

[Kossage.9072]

SPOILERS

I enjoy the DRMs for what they are: bite-sized chunks with some lore and character development set in older regions of the world. This is something many people had been asking for back in the day, and in that regard ArenaNet delivered. In fact, these would be great content for side stories between episodes as a kind of grand continuation of the well-received Knight of the Thorn side story although I can see the ambition of the devs as the four chapters are released and we get all these DRMs, the Braham vision and other surprises (based on what they may have in store for Chapter 4: Judgment) as the full Champions package, the lengthiest instanced living world story content yet with the added bonus of having an incentive to replay them daily/weekly alone or with others.

While the formula of DRMs is repetitive with the timed pre-events leading to another event and then the boss (and some pre-event timers being weird for soloing like Metrica and Thunderhead often running out even when you rush the goals), I like the various factions that come to our aid and how some dialogue changes depending on our choice. The allies provide unique buffs, some of which are more useful than others (gotta love Alkar's potion against destroyers if picking Deldrimor, or the neat buffs provided by the Crystal Bloom's crystals), and fit into the themes of the respective factions.

In some cases, like the Brisban DRM, we even have randomized alternate routes to the boss during the escort. The pre-events make sense in the locations they are in with the potential exception of sparring with traumatized Priory members when Thunderhead Keep is being invaded (although I justify with the Priory being in so much shock that they aren't thinking clearly during that moment and need the Commander to calm them down so they can properly defend the entrance to the keep and thus ensure that our way back is secure while we face the boss).

As we become more and more powerful with each Dragon Slayer mastery, I imagine the NPC assistance in DRMs will become more useful towards the end of Champions, and a below average skilled player character boosted with both frost and flame essence should hopefully be able to solo all DRMs with three CMs enabled (including the tricky Snowden Drifts DRM) once all the episodes have been released...although that remains to be seen.

Musicwise it's been a bit of a hit and miss for me. I adore how many alternate versions and arrangements of tracks we get (it's pretty clever how we hear an eerie version of the Spirits of the Wild theme when our ally factions come to our aid, suggesting that the Spirits themselves are watching as Tyria slowly becomes united against the common dragon menace) and how these are randomized and can even change within an instance such as how in e.g. Brisban DRM the track changes each time you die and respawn. While it adds a replayability factor as you'll always have a chance of getting a new combination from a pool of tracks, sometimes old tracks are added into the mix too with, well, mixed results. It's incredibly jarring to me to hear the White Mantle Xera theme being used in the battle against Ryland as he has nothing to do with White Mantle thematically, but that's just the flaw in the randomization of the tracks. I wish there had been a fixed theme for Ryland that we can identify with (his current suggested motif, if it's truly his, is very vague so it's not as hummable a theme as Jormag and Bangar have, maybe because Ryland himself is a drifting character who is still coming to terms with his purpose) just like we had the harrowing jouhikko-torturing Primordus theme for the destroyer champions to signify Primordus's looming presence as the mastermind of these invasions that herald his rise.

Lorewise it's been fun getting to see how older regions have changed since we last visited them in story, and how we get some interesting NPC pairings during the DRMs. Hearing Jhavi and Marjory argue about the cost of war and how much we should be willing to sacrifice to win, Ryland and Caithe comparing their respective dragons' strengths and goals while trying to pry information from one another, Braham and Taimi trying to convince the other about which race's dragon is the more imminent threat, Kasmeer and Crecia working hand in hand to rally Ebonhawke (which has mistrusted both Kryta and the legions) behind them, even the return of the dwarves, the fate of Owl, or the horrific reveal of the Frozen and how they tie into Jormag's plans for Tyria...it's all compelling stuff to me. If only the limited budget wasn't in the way, I would've wanted each DRM to have optional dialogue with our allies how we get optional dialogue in Gendarran Fields and Fields of Ruin DRMs. Imagine optional dialogue with Locke Stonehealer about what the Deldrimor have been up to, the Voice of Koda's views on Braham's growing spiritual powers, Crecia's opinion on Rytlock having made Logan an honorary member of her and Rytlock's Stone Warband back in the day, or Caithe's views on Ryland to mention a few.

Granted, some of these lore reveals could've used some more meat over the bones.

It was a missed opportunity not bringing Logan and Rytlock along to Ebonhawke given how both of them have history there as per Edge of Destiny novel (after all, Logan's actions with allowing the charr prisoners to fight alongside humans at Ebonhawke during the branded Ogre Revolt set the stage for the treaty to even happen, so his banter with Crecia would've been nice to hear while he could've further elaborated to Rytlock on how defending Jennah at Ebonhawke during the first Kralkatorrik battle was necessary for the future treaty even if Logan had to abandon Destiny's Edge to make it happen back then). Likewise, it would've been awesome to actually see Wade Samuelsson (the duke of Ebonhawke and commander of the Ebon Vanguard) actually appear in the flesh to represent Ebonhawke and the Vanguard (as currently Ebonhawke has no spokesperson in the DRM) and show his reaction to Crecia following Bangar's rebellion instead of us being contacted by an entirely new, unseen NPC (Thaddeus Soren) via a letter which leaves Samuelsson's current status unknown (has he retired, is he still working with the Vanguard to face the destroyer threat, or what?).

The dwarven introduction was very sudden and could've used a bit of a cutscene given the huge lore importance of their long awaited return, but I guess we might get a proper introduction to Deldrimor once/if we ever meet with King Jalis Ironhammer (assuming he hasn't been slain by destroyers by now). Would've also been nice to hear both Ogden and Rhoban's reaction to the Deldrimor's return but Rhoban was sadly unvoiced in the instance due to the limited VA budget per episode.

Likewise, Owl's story arc was resolved surprisingly quickly although it's understandable given how the devs had to cut out some story bits from the saga. I would've loved for the corruption to actually be successful and us fighting against a Corrupted Owl who is lorewise said to be a terrifying opponent. Actually getting to see Owl's ghostly model with corruption effects would've no doubt been a chilling moment (no pun intended) even if the end result would've still been the same as the ending of Snowden Drifts DRM.

The DRMs may be rough around the edges due to devs moving most of their workforce to finish the expansion, but they show promise as repeatable content that thankfully scales so you can just do it solo or with a buddy or two and tweak the difficulty to suit your tastes to have some quick fun if you want. I hope the devs won't abandon the concept entirely after the saga has concluded as revisiting old locations with twists is a great storytelling tool (without needing to release a new zone or half of a few zone every episode), and we get content like this in more polished form (with some of the player feedback taken into account) in some future releases, whether as part of a living world story (even if not being the bulk of an episode) or as side stories. I've found the content decent enough to play through multiple times although I'll reserve judgement until Chapter 4: Judgment has been released and we'll see if we get some zone expansions or other curious stuff (as there's been no indication that we get any DRMs in Chapter 4 now that the last known batch ships with Chapter 3). :)

[Ashantara.8731]

@Kossage.9072 said:SPOILERS

I enjoy the DRMs for what they are: bite-sized chunks with some lore and character development set in older regions of the world. This is something many people had been asking for back in the day, and in that regard ArenaNet delivered.

Yes, going back to old locations is fun. But what lore and character development in the name of the Five? :o We must have played different content. ;)

Hearing Jhavi and Marjory argue about the cost of war and how much we should be willing to sacrifice to win, Ryland and Caithe comparing their respective dragons' strengths and goals while trying to pry information from one another, Braham and Taimi trying to convince the other about which race's dragon is the more imminent threat, Kasmeer and Crecia working hand in hand to rally Ebonhawke [...] Owl [...]

Ah, all the splendid dialogue that made me cringe, because it was so badly written that I felt a 13-year old must have composed it? :s

[Kossage.9072]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Kossage.9072" said:

SPOILERS

I enjoy the DRMs for what they are: bite-sized chunks with some lore and character development set in older regions of the world. This is something many people had been asking for back in the day, and in that regard ArenaNet delivered.

Yes, going back to old locations is fun. But what

lore

and

character development

in the name of the Five? :o We must have played different content. ;)

Quite a few, actually. Let's go in chronological order. :)

SPOILERS

Metrica Province DRM: The destroyer champion shows more intelligence than previously assumed with the way it relocates to certain areas against expectations even though Taimi tries to shrug the evidence off by relying on old asuran theses. Taimi has sided with Jormag, an action unthinkable in previous seasons, although she still shows herself to be sensible enough to understand that Jormag has to be taken care of eventually even though she argues that Primordus is the more pressing threat. We see a rift forming between the previously close Braham and Taimi. In this instance Taimi first foreshadows a reveal that plays a key point in Chapter 2: that Primordus's conflagration domain empowers the destroyers that burn stuff which in turn empowers Primordus, thus making it a perpetually growing and destructive loop that will give Primordus an edge over time.

Brisban Wildlands DRM: The dialogue confirms that the Commander is in fact a dragon champion (albeit without physical corruption due to fashion wars). Caithe and Ryland try to analyze one another and discuss their respective dragons' strengths and weaknesses in a philosophical debate, and we learn that Ryland is actually trying to deliberately provoke the Commander with his asides by undermining the Commander at every turn (whether because of jealousy or some other reason remains to be seen). Ryland actually reveals some key details about himself that previously were merely implied like his growing ambition and how he seeks validation and power and why he abandoned Bangar's cause. I'd like to see more of this kind of "friendly" banter between heroes and antagonists because GW2 mostly chooses not to go that route; it reminded me of our interactions with the antivillain Nightmare Courtier Gavin in the White Stag storyline, one of the few truly complex antagonists in the entire GW franchise.

Gendarran Fields DRM: We get the major reveal that the destroyers used a clever feint maneuver to draw defenders away from their true target, the Ascalon Settlement, by seemingly targeting LA gates and Applenook at first with their vanguard force. While both Marjory and Jhavi dismiss it as destroyers simply being chaotic, this is actually a continuation of the foreshadowing from Metrica DRM that there's more going on with these destroyers that are starting to strategize. Jhavi and Marjory have a moral debate about how much can be sacrificed to secure victory, driving a wedge between them. Marjory also reveals that there's drama between her and Kasmeer yet again (a development I'm not particularly fond of as I thought they'd settled things during their Kralk observations in Season 4 but apparently they have some unresolved issues still).

Fields of Ruin DRM: We see the growing tension in Ebonhawke as Crecia brings the Blood Legion in as reinforcements. She manages to win Ebonhawke over by protecting the city and also reveals she's done with paperwork and prefers to let actions speak louder than words, taking a different stance on the treaty than Smodur did. We see some Separatist sympathizers abandoning their cause and joining forces with the charr, proving that there may still be hope to redeem at least some of the Separatists. Post-clear dialogue reveals that Mia Kindleshot has become the new Iron imperator seemingly without objection (even though lorewise Iron tribune Fume Brighteye would've opposed her ascension; I suppose Fume is biding her time for now and waiting to discredit Mia later, assuming that the writers ever return to that foreshadowed plot since vanilla GW2) and that she's not going after the mantle of Khan-Ur as eagerly as Smodur was even though she shares many of his ideals. Crecia has apparently been handling the remnants of the Dominion and Renegades off screen with the intel she and Malice acquired from Bangar's secret files, so the Renegade threat is pretty much done with (aside from what may happen with Fume's faction if the story ever decides to explore the hints from Drizzlewood Coast in the future). Crecia's dialogue also suggests that the United Legions is a temporary thing, and sooner or later animosity between imperators will continue unless the charr change the way their society works.

Thunderhead Peaks DRM: Braham receives sound advise about the role of norn of prophecy (and how it somehow seems to tie to the seemingly contradictory take of Primordus's role in ending Jormag instead) from the non-binary Myrun Skialkin who reminds Braham that, just like Myrun themself, a person can be two things at once or something altogether new. This likely ends up foreshadowing what we're about to witness in the upcoming vision with Braham and the Spirits. We see the Deldrimor dwarves return at long last and learn a bit about why they've surfaced now and not before (it's because destroyers were amassing on the surface in greater numbers, so the dwarves followed suit to cull the horde). Braham's connection to the destroyers intensifies, allowing him to distract the destroyers during the boss battle so the Commander can defeat the champion. The Commander is also revealed to have an ability to use Aurene's gift to alter the vibration of the Dragonsblood spears to react to destroyers rather than Branded, which may come into play later.

Lake Doric: The icebrood reveal their true colors when they begin attacking people and turning them into the Frozen when the defenders thought they had arrived as reinforcements. The Frozen are apparently impervious to destroyers' fire and somehow empower Jormag in their solid state. The Frozen may potentially be a callback to when Rox got frozen in Season 3; if so, it seems Jormag has learned a few new tricks to make these new Frozen even sturdier than before. Ryland further explores his teased ambitions from Brisban DRM by revealing that he intends to rule the world in Jormag's name hundred(s?) of years from now once the Frozen thaw to witness the new world Jormag has created. Crecia is finally coming to terms with her son's fall upon witnessing the atrocities he's now committed and how he's set on his path.

Snowden Drifts: Braham starts realizing the weight of the prophecy on his shoulders and laments the role he's thrust himself into. Kas comforts him by stating that fate did not choose his role as his actions themselves made him who he is today. Kas also refers back to her crisis of faith with Balthazar and Kormir back in PoF during the escort, a nice touch of continuity as it gives her some weight as a spiritual advisor to Braham. The Kodan Voice notes similarities between Braham and the kodan Voices although we sadly only get a few hints for now. Unlike the three other Lost Spirits, Owl apparently hasn't been corrupted yet; it's revealed that she tricked Jormag by promising herself to it before reneging on the deal and going into hiding, and Ryland intends to force her to honor her oath to Jormag. Ryland's power is revealed to be so great that even our heroes are unable to kill him in his empowered state, so the best we can do is mess up his plans for now. Owl persuades Braham to cause a chain of events that leads to her death, and her last words set him on a mystical path: to let the other Spirits know that he is the harness and that the pantheon as a whole can "direct the fall" with him. Ryland shows himself to be a surprisingly graceful loser, and he reveals that Jormag will simply leech magic from the three remaining corrupted Spirits for the time being in preparation for Primordus's rise.

There are of course more plot details which happen in between the DRMs to help explore the concepts above, but I only included the relevant details from the DRMs themselves. A lot is happening in these DRMs, and in some ways we're rushing through too quickly through a checklist of plot points like Owl's return and demise, and the resurgence of the dwarves, or Crecia's lack of struggle for becoming the next Blood imperator. But it is quite impressive how we see each character develop either by coming to realizations during the missions or letting local NPCs reveal some key information that makes them reconsider stuff. :)

Hearing Jhavi and Marjory argue about the cost of war and how much we should be willing to sacrifice to win, Ryland and Caithe comparing their respective dragons' strengths and goals while trying to pry information from one another, Braham and Taimi trying to convince the other about which race's dragon is the more imminent threat, Kasmeer and Crecia working hand in hand to rally Ebonhawke [...] Owl [...]

Ah, all the

splendid

dialogue that made me cringe, because it was so badly written that I felt a 13-year old must have composed it? :s

While I understand that art can be subjective, how is the aforementioned dialogue written by a 13-year-old in your opinion and what elements in it make you cringe in particular? I've yet to encounter anything in these DRMs that would be the dialogue equivalent of Season 1's infamous (IMHO) "Later, tater!" or "Like a norn fart at a moot." Given the tight VA and line budget per episode, the dialogues in Champions may have been quite concise but they got the job done while staying true to the characters' established personalities and pushing the characters forward in their story arcs. I'm always interested in learning more about people's preferences and what they consider to be good or bad dialogue or storytelling as there tend to be as many opinions as there are players given everyone's respective tastes. :)

[Atomos.7593]

Out of all the DRMs released so far, the Jormag ones are in my opinion much better in terms of gameplay.

The Lake Doric DRM flows much more smoothly than the others and feels closer to the right length, so it doesn't seem like as much of a grind or slog as the others. Fighting the trash mobs in it doesn't feel long and repetitive and the boss fight doesn't feature too much health, crowd control and escape mechanics.

I actually found the Lake Doric one somewhat fun. It's one that I would consider playing daily. Hopefully the latter DRMs and other instances in the game are more like it, instead of like the earlier DRMs.

[Harfang.1507]

I have done each DRM once or twice for story and mastery points. I am just finishing catching up on previous IBS episode grinds for more mastery points. I do not have major issues with DRM content per se, but I have doubts as to whether they 'belong' to GW2.I played WoW and GW2 extensively in PvE mode. I like both games, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. One of the strengths for GW2 is its open world dynamic events, especially the big metas where you can come in, contribute and leave at any moment as real life calls on you. I see strike missions and DRMs as moving away from that model and concentrating active players in small groups and small instances, depopulating to some extent pre-existing content. To me, it reduces the appeal of GW2 in the long run.I also very much like the fact that ArenaNet has managed to keep its old content alive, if not always thriving. You have a choice to experience old content and get decent rewards out of it. Old maps often feel quiet, but rarely completely deserted. In WoW, maps that predate the most recent expansion are a desolate wasteland. I think the current episode's model will leave it in that state once we move to Newer & Bigger things.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@Kossage.9072 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:

Ah, all the

splendid

dialogue that made me cringe, because it was so badly written that I felt a 13-year old must have composed it? :s

While I understand that art can be subjective, how is the aforementioned dialogue written by a 13-year-old in your opinion and what elements in it make you cringe in particular? I've yet to encounter anything in these DRMs that would be the dialogue equivalent of Season 1's infamous (IMHO) "Later, tater!" or "Like a norn fart at a moot." Given the tight VA and line budget per episode, the dialogues in Champions may have been quite concise but they got the job done while staying true to the characters' established personalities and pushing the characters forward in their story arcs. I'm always interested in learning more about people's preferences and what they consider to be good or bad dialogue or storytelling as there tend to be as many opinions as there are players given everyone's respective tastes. :)

I have serious issues with the DRM dialogue in the opening stages of the Ebonhawke mission. Initially my distaste for it was based on an audiovisual bug (some of the mitigating things Kasmeer was saying neither appeared in my chat log nor over game audio), but in the beginning it's absolutely idiotic.

The Commander takes a ridiculous, hands-on-hips, exasperated-suburban-mom tone about how it's been ten whole years since the treaty was signed, what could possibly be making these stupid Ebonhawke people uncomfortable about accepting armed and organized charr into their city? Ten years is NOT a long time for a city to overcome an identity almost entirely defined by fighting for their lives as a lone outpost amid a hostile species. Even after the formal conclusion of open hostilities, Separatist violence seems like a daily occurrence. Even Crecia herself later acknowledges that the treaty is just a piece of paper and ultimately has no meaning without underlying trust. It just seems utterly stupid that anyone would expect this same meaningless piece of paper to change a collective attitude against a traditional adversary, when people in real life hold grudges for much longer over far lesser issues.

To make matters worse, in my ears Kasmeer takes the tone of one apologizing to her friends on behalf of a sweet old racist grandmother. She does speak on behalf of the city, but somewhat apologetically and practically seems to be pleading for understanding from the Commander instead of saying "hey, don't be stupid, actually think about this for a sec." I admit that Kas is ill suited for that role though, and as you mentioned @Kossage.9072, the absence of Wade Samuelsson really stings here. It would have made much more narrative sense to have Wade be quite firm in his defense of the reservations that some residents have, while he himself accepts the treaty and the pragmatism behind it. Kas' softer tone of defense would then fit much better, as it would counterbalance Samuelsson's more (understandably) impassioned defense of his city but ask the Commander to be the bigger person and rise above all the back and forth.

But all we get is the Commander talking in the most privileged, uber-Karen tone about how not getting over generations of trauma in a mere 10 years is madness, and Kas just says "of course you're right, but they just came up in a different time, you know?" This result could easily have been written by some 13 year old who buys into today's ultra-woke culture without even realizing how appropriation-ridden, frequently myopic, sometimes nuanced, and often abused said culture is.

[BlueJin.4127]

Just finished the DRM's released today and the last one is a perfect example of what is seriously wrong with this game. It's nothing but mindless chaos with too much visual clutter and an orgy of spell effects. There's no apparent strategy and you get downed for seemingly random reasons because you can't tell what the heck is going on in this incomprehensible mess of spell effects.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@BlueJin.4127 said:Just finished the DRM's released today and the last one is a perfect example of what is seriously wrong with this game. It's nothing but mindless chaos with too much visual clutter and an orgy of spell effects. There's no apparent strategy and you get downed for seemingly random reasons because you can't tell what the heck is going on in this incomprehensible mess of spell effects.

honorary mention to instance when u fight destroyers in a reddish/lava texture so u cant see the red circles lolz.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Man, it seems so fashionable to complain about DRMs. I personally find nothing wrong with them. They're just instances. You grind out some mobs, then the boss, and you're done!

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Man, it seems so fashionable to complain about DRMs. I personally find nothing wrong with them. They're just instances. You grind out some mobs, then the boss, and you're done!

They're not too bad... to do once. Once and once only. More than once? There are plenty of things to do that are several orders of magnitude more fun, and most of those have better rewards on top of that.

[Joote.4081]

They can't be more boring and tedious as 'Victory or death, or the number one in boring and tedious 'The departing'. It's impossible to get more boring and tedious than those two.I have noticed how all but a few of the living world missions follow the exact same format. You know exactly what's going to happen next. It must be the template for all the story's they just colour them in with different colours.

[Obtena.7952]

@Oxstar.7643 said:Stop. You are very well aware that what I'm saying is that dungeons are not required to progress the story. The repetetive missons should also not be.

They aren't repetitive to progress the story though ... you can do them ONCE and get your story in.

[Fueki.4753]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Stop. You are very well aware that what I'm saying is that dungeons are not required to progress the story. The repetetive missons should also not be.

They aren't repetitive to progress the story though ... you can do them ONCE and get your story in.

While they technically aren't repetitive in the story, it feels too repetitive because all of them basically are the same.Three or (two in case you'd rather wait than save Quaggans) tasks that effectively only are busy work, a lengthy part that is only about killing trash and hearing terribly bad written story (even compared to the rest of Season 5) and then a boss.

[Obtena.7952]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Stop. You are very well aware that what I'm saying is that dungeons are not required to progress the story. The repetetive missons should also not be.

They aren't repetitive to progress the story though ... you can do them ONCE and get your story in.

While they technically aren't repetitive in the story, it feels too repetitive because all of them basically are the same.Three or (two in case you'd rather wait than save Quaggans) tasks that effectively only are busy work, a lengthy part that is only about killing trash and hearing terribly bad written story (even compared to the rest of Season 5) and then a boss.

They have similar stages (all two of them ... a 'save' and a 'boss kill'). The actual mechanics for all the DRM's are pretty different. So maybe more accurate to say they are too familiar in their staging. They feel like they follow a template too closely.

[Excursion.9752]

One time through they are okay. It feels like a beta test for a new dungeon mode that has an automated party finder. These things should have never been designed to take much longer than 5minutes and should have a Story mode and a Non Story version where you can bypass all the parts that you now have heard dozens of times. :bleep_bloop:

[BlueJin.4127]

I must say, I've been doing DRM's solo lately for the meta achievement and they're actually not as bad as I initially thought. When playing with random players, there are so many players that can't deal decent DPS that DRM's took forever to complete. Just the other day, I had to deal 78% of my team's DPS while the other 4 members combined for the other 22%... And I had to spend like half my time ressing them because they kept getting downed over and over and over (CM). Playing solo, the DRM's go by at a pretty good pace. Also, not dealing with visual clutter from 4 other players makes it easy to actually see and dodge things.

Edited May 2, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Kidel.2057]

The worst thing is that you basically have to grind them to get mastery points. The old system was much better, mastery points were never locked behind tedious stuff. We hoped to get more at the end, with the story fully released, but guess what? There are basically 2 that are easy to get. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Jong.5937]

Two that are really just for doing the final battle and two others that need no skill, just a little perseverance (dodge a few attacks by each dragon).

 

There are now 76 points available and only 63 needed. That's not bad!