Wasn't killing more elder dragons a bad thing?

[Zola.6197]

The plot has hinged on the idea that we must find some sort of viable replacement for the elder dragons before they can be killed. Everything from season 2, HoTs, and especially season 3 through PoF to season 4, has centered around this concept. We couldn't let Balthazar absorb Primordus and Jormag's magic, we could let him kill Kralkatorrik either. Aurene had to be old enough/ready to ascend to avoid potentially cataclysmic consequences, and Glint's whole legacy plan revolved around herself, Vlast, and Aurene replacing Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and Modremoth respectively. This concept of replacing elder dragons with friendlier ones has been cemented in the story as not just as a good idea, but a necessary one to our survival.

I just can't make sense of the direction the story is taking. If the writers wanted to throw out that idea for the sake of expediently resolving the elder dragon plot, there should have been a more thorough debunking of that besides Jormag, a known manipulator and major antagonist, telling us the balance is "fake" one time. If the answer ends up being "Jormag's persuasion domain has influenced everyone to suddenly disregard the potential world-ending consequences of another elder dragon dying," that seed has been ill planted. All I can think is that the devs simply do not care anymore, disliked being shackled to the replacement/maintaining of The All plot, and just want the elder dragon story over at all costs. As our allies set up a kaiju battle for Primordus and Jormag to kill one another, I am feeling so drained and baffled. Even if none of the elder dragons die by the end of this, why haven't the characters been asking any questions? The Commander? Aurene? Taimi? Anyone?

I have genuinely liked Icebrood Saga, and I gave Champions a chance. I have truly enjoyed the dialogue and character to character conflicts we've seen in the DRMs. I realize the devs are under pressure and crunched for time, especially given everything that has happened to the studio and in the world the last couple years. Seemingly ditching the balance of The All and replacement plot so... quietly and unceremoniously is really ruining my interest in this game. Dealing with that plot thread is the one thing that feels completely crucial to this moment in the story, and absolutely none of the characters are bringing it up. Why? This doesn't feel like clever writing that will blow my mind with a big twist. Whereas I should be compelled by the obviously intentional omission of this discussion, I am instead frustrated and confused and wondering if there is any reason to remain invested in the story. I know there are lots of corners that must be cut right now for the sake of pushing out the expansion (at the expense of The Icebrood Saga), but certainly this was not the corner to cut for time. I realize there's one more chapter left, but my expectations are decidedly low.

I am curious to hear the thoughts of others though, and if I am alone in this feeling. I know there are a few others lamenting the same thing, but I feel like this should bother more people than what I've seen so far.

[Sarpan.9074]

I've been wondering the same thing. Downing Kralk was acceptable because we had Aurene to replace him/her/it. But there's no reconciliation with the earlier point that killing off elder dragons would doom us all and the current direction of the story. I'm interested in how they handle this, if at all.

[Gombie.3860]

I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

Maybe something bad does* happen and that's the future setting? /Shrug

But if jormag and prime die then aurene gets all the power right?

[Dawdler.8521]

@Gombie.3860 said:I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

Maybe something bad doesn't happen and that's the future setting? /Shrug

But if jormag and prime die then aurene gets all the power right?Heh, I thought the setup for a possible GW3 has been obvious since the doric drm - an alternate scenario (compared to EoD) where Jormag wins, the world gets frozen and then our players wakes up centuries later to a new Tyria. The story even makes it more interesting when they start to argue the state of the frozen.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

The need for Elder Dragon replacement was eliminated by Aurene.

As Kralk mentions at the end of LWS4, Aurene is unique in that she can take in, and combine, all the various dragon magics within her. Unlike other Elder Dragons where those energies conflict, and cause torment.

This is supplemented by what Glint said in "All or Nothing", during the section here the Commander and Aurene are undergoing the trails. Unlike other Elder Dragons, who horde magic into themselves, Aurene shares magic with others. The more she shares it with others, the more she is able to negate the negative effects of collecting so much power like the other Elder Dragons suffer from.

The need for multiple Elder Dragon replacements was only necessary because we were working within the ideals of the system as it was, which needed 6 Elder Dragons to control the magic. Aurene fundamentally changed the system with her unique abilities.

[Fenella.2634]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:The need for Elder Dragon replacement was eliminated by Aurene.

This is likely true, but still the issue remains that the characters seem to not care anymore. This is a very important aspect they should definitely discuss and test if possible, given how much time and effort they already spent on the issue and how horrible the consequences can be. So far, it's basically just speculation and wishful thinking, mostly based on cryptic lines from more or less insane antagonistic dragons, plus a part of a prophecy we did not even get to hear.

Idk. I agree that this should be talked about in game.

[Teratus.2859]

I've been under the impression that the Spirits of the wild will be the ones to absorb Jormags magic upon death but we've got nothing concrete about that yet.

But yes I do agree that the lack of discussion on this matter in game does feel like the concept has been abandoned or at least side lined for later despite how important it actually is.I'll certainly end up being really annoyed if they just go with Aurine can handle it solo... and I do have a feeling that based on recent awful writing like "joko magic" and "Braham Champion" that they will probably go down that road as an easy out.

God I hope they don't.. after all these years that this story has been going I would hate to see it just flop at the end like various TV shows and movie series have in recent years.Gw2 deserves better than that.

[Gombie.3860]

I'm leaning towards aurene dying in some form or another at the end of the new expansion. But we will see. Being able to predict often makes for a unexciting story.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Teratus.2859" said:I've been under the impression that the Spirits of the wild will be the ones to absorb Jormags magic upon death but we've got nothing concrete about that yet.

But yes I do agree that the lack of discussion on this matter in game does feel like the concept has been abandoned or at least side lined for later despite how important it actually is.I'll certainly end up being really annoyed if they just go with Aurine can handle it solo... and I do have a feeling that based on recent awful writing like "joko magic" and "Braham Champion" that they will probably go down that road as an easy out.

God I hope they don't.. after all these years that this story has been going I would hate to see it just flop at the end like various TV shows and movie series have in recent years.Gw2 deserves better than that.

Yeah, I’m still hoping the Spirits of the Wild will absorb the magic, if Jormag dies. If Primordus dies as well, I’m not so sure.

[Yasai.3549]

I'm under the impression they are going to find a way to channel the Dragon's energies into their Champions after slaying their respective EDs.Ryland seems like a pretty level headed guy.Braham is a pretty level headed guy if he isn't drunk or what not.Commander is Aurene's chosen.

There is no salvaging a Champion for Mordy or Zhaitan, and besides those two had Champions, but they were extremely corrupt.I'm assuming this is going to happen in EoD.

[anninke.7469]

@"Gombie.3860" said:I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

But there's the risk of getting a "oops, we forgot" afterwards, like with Laranthir for example. (And I still want to know where he is and what he's doing there.)

[Teratus.2859]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:I've been under the impression that the Spirits of the wild will be the ones to absorb Jormags magic upon death but we've got nothing concrete about that yet.

But yes I do agree that the lack of discussion on this matter in game does feel like the concept has been abandoned or at least side lined for later despite how important it actually is.I'll certainly end up being really annoyed if they just go with Aurine can handle it solo... and I do have a feeling that based on recent awful writing like "joko magic" and "Braham Champion" that they will probably go down that road as an easy out.

God I hope they don't.. after all these years that this story has been going I would hate to see it just flop at the end like various TV shows and movie series have in recent years.Gw2 deserves better than that.

Yeah, I’m still hoping the Spirits of the Wild will absorb the magic, if Jormag dies. If Primordus dies as well, I’m not so sure.

I'm betting.. hoping more that Primordus will live and we'll finally get to see first hand the destruction and power he can possesses, but considering recent events/writing i'm probably going to be disappointed there XDAs much as I want him to survive the IBS and get a few big moments in the world I don't have much faith in the writers right now.. even though the prophecy does state that Either Braham or Jormag will die at each others hands.. not that both of them will.Plus the death of 1 Elder Dragon can release a cataclysmic level of magic into the world, the deaths of 2 at the same time is unprecedented.. I'd be willing to bet the Spirits may be able to handle one of them dying but 2?.. nah that's a bit out there for me to just accept lol

[Teratus.2859]

@Yasai.3549 said:I'm under the impression they are going to find a way to channel the Dragon's energies into their Champions after slaying their respective EDs.Ryland seems like a pretty level headed guy.Braham is a pretty level headed guy if he isn't drunk or what not.Commander is Aurene's chosen.

There is no salvaging a Champion for Mordy or Zhaitan, and besides those two had Champions, but they were extremely corrupt.I'm assuming this is going to happen in EoD.

I dunno.. the only time something like that has happened is with Kralktorrik but arguably that wasn't because Aurine was the offspring of his previous Champion it was more we expect because Aurine was directly related to him.. and was a Dragon herself.

Ryland and Braham are neither directly related to their Dragons nor are they Dragons themselves.. champions can become more powerful after the deaths of their Elders as we saw with Tequatl but so far there is nothing that show's a Champion can replace an Elder entirely.

[Raknar.4735]

According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Raknar.4735" said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

[Raknar.4735]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

Because Jormag doesn't lie.

[Teratus.2859]

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.

Maybe.. but Jormag is selfish and evil, how can you trust it's words when it's actions constantly betray them?

Because Jormag doesn't lie.

True.. but it does twist the truth :)

[Fenella.2634]

@anninke.7469 said:

@"Gombie.3860" said:I think you should save judgement until it's concluded.

But there's the risk of getting a "oops, we forgot" afterwards, like with Laranthir for example. (And I still want to know where he is and what he's doing there.)

Although, forgetting the entire plot of two LS seasons and an entire expac would be on a completely new level. I don't think they forgot. I think they just don't bother anymore and don't care if the characters behave logically at the present, as long as they arrive at the conclusion that is planned.

@"Raknar.4735" said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.But this doesn't make sense. We stumbled upon the concept in LS2 and 3. It was discovered using scientific simulations, which of course can be wrong, but this is completely different from myths and superstition.If we want to talk about myths and mortal superstitions, the first thing I'd scrap is that random norn prophecy. Who even was the prophet and how the heck did they come up with that? It is not like there has been any precedent of a Jormag being killed.This, to me, sounds like a fairy tale. Taimi's discoveries on the other hand, not so much.

[Fenella.2634]

Even at that point where Jormag just off-handedly brought this up, why did nobody react to it? Jormag just told everyone "BTW, that balance thing you ran around for for the last couple years? Uhm yeah, forget it, it's BS anyway" And everyone is like "Ah, kay thanks. So, how is the war going?"

And... It pretty much stayed this way up until now. Dear characters, are you guys okay? Did you get hit one time too many?

[Raknar.4735]

@"Raknar.4735" said:According to Jormag, the "balance" is a fantasy—another mortal superstition. So who knows what will happen once another ED dies.But this doesn't make sense. We stumbled upon the concept in LS2 and 3. It was discovered using scientific simulations, which of course can be wrong, but this is completely different from myths and superstition.If we want to talk about myths and mortal superstitions, the first thing I'd scrap is that random norn prophecy. Who even was the prophet and how the heck did they come up with that? It is not like there has been any precedent of a Jormag being killed.This, to me, sounds like a fairy tale. Taimi's discoveries on the other hand, not so much.

Scientific simulations based on Rata Novan simulation technology. It's not the first time the Asura or Taimi were wrong about something.

You're forgetting something: This is Tyria, not the real world. Magic exists. Prophecies aren't just superstitions here. Wolf even confirmed the Norn Prophecy.I'm going to trust Jormag here, since Jormag doesn't lie. The mortal concept about the balance and the All is wrong when it comes to ED death.

[Fenella.2634]

Magic, sure, but magic with science attached.Simulations can absolutely be wrong, no doubt. The setup or input can be flawed or based on flawed assumptions, and so can the interpretation.

However, it seemed to be pretty convincing so far. We did see effects that were in accordance with the simulation.We even saved three EDs because of this AND killed a god. (I wonder if Kas has an opinion on this part)

In comparison, one remark of a dragon that has some personal interest in another dragon being killed... Not quite as convincing.Also, the characters did not get the memo from the dev stating somewhere outside the game that Jormag (maybe) doesn't lie directly. They should still think Jormag does lie all the time, because why wouldn't they think that?

[Raknar.4735]

One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

[Fenella.2634]

@"Raknar.4735" said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

So, you know everything there is to know about humans, because you are a human? No more human biology or medical science needed? ^^ Just because it's an Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean it knows everything about Elder Dragons. Granted, it might know more than we do. However, at least in the last cycle, no ED was killed, so the balance issue did most likely not come up back then. Do the EDs really know, or is Jormag also just speculating?

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.Because?Also, we saw effects with all the unbound magic and the reality of Tyria getting affected.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.Hm, this is where I disagree. For storytelling and immersion, it's important to consider what the characters actually know at a given point. And this will at times be different from what the players know, let alone what the authors know. Otherwise, we no longer have "characters", but just plot devices that just further the plot, without actually being involved.

As far as I'm concerned, you can be totally right about Jormag being omniscient and everything we saw for the last 5 years being weird coincidences, that's not really my issue here. My issue is the non-existent reaction of the characters.

[Raknar.4735]

@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

So, you know everything there is to know about humans, because you are a human? No more human biology or medical science needed? ^^ Just because it's an Elder Dragon, that doesn't mean it knows everything about Elder Dragons. Granted, it might know more than we do. However, at least in the last cycle, no ED was killed, so the balance issue did most likely not come up back then. Do the EDs really know, or is Jormag also just speculating?

I'd say humanity has a pretty good grasp about what happens with the human body when it dies.An ED doesn't need to know everything about EDs. What happens when one ED dies isn't "everything".Also, no ED dying in the previous cycle doesn't mean an ED hasn't died in any of the cycles before the prevous one. We simply don't know how long Jormag, or any of the other ED, besides Aurene, have been around.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.Because?Also, we saw effects with all the unbound magic and the reality of Tyria getting affected.

Because it's just that, a simulation based on old Asuran knowledge.Unbound magic drives some mortals insane and creates magical anomalies. If it is infused with a non-compatible element, it may cause torment to EDs when consumed. But overflowing magic has always been a part of the ED cycle.

The reality of Tyria was affected because Kralkatorrik started consuming magic everywhere, even in the Mists, opening various connections between Tyria and the Mists. Has nothing to do with an ED dying.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.Hm, this is where I disagree. For storytelling and immersion, it's important to consider what the characters actually know at a given point. And this will at times be different from what the players know, let alone what the authors know. Otherwise, we no longer have "characters", but just plot devices that just further the plot, without actually being involved.

As far as I'm concerned, you can be totally right about Jormag being omniscient and everything we saw for the last 5 years being weird coincidences, that's not really my issue here. My issue is the non-existent reaction of the characters.

I've never claimed Jormag is omniscient, just that we know Jormag never lies. In this case, Jormag knows more than any mortal does.Not sure what you mean by "weird coincidences in the last 5 years".I'm not arguing about how the character should act given new information, because that is irrelevant to how the All works. I'm only arguing about the All.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Raknar.4735" said:One remark of a dragon that is part of the whole simulation we're speculating about. A dragon that plays a major part in the All. A dragon that also wants Tyria to continue to exist.

On the other side we have simulations based on old Asura tech. Not very convincing.

What the character knows is completely irrelevant here. We as players know that Jormag doesn't lie. This is relevant to how the All works in this case. Our character's knowledge doesn't influence how the Balance or the All works.

This isn't quite true.Jormag only wants Tyria to exist in it's own image specifically.. a frozen world covered in Ice is Jormag's ideal world much like Primordus ideal world is a lifeless burning wastelandLikewise Mordremoth's ideal world was basically to spread itself everywhere and become the world itself, Mordy even states in the HoT trailer "I am this world" which is enough of a statement to know his goals lolZhaitan wanted a world where only the dead can exist forever.And of course Kralkatorrik wanted to just eradicate everything, even himself.

Jormag saying it want's to protect and preserve Tyria is one of those ways it lies with the truth.. it's not technically lying but it's not telling you the truth either and it's intentions are absolutely malevolent and selfish.So when Jormag tells you the balance is a lie.. it's probably not technically lying, but it's definitely not telling you the truth either and it's only saying that to further it's own agenda.That is the only thing you can trust from anything Jormag says.

Also remember Aurine is part of that simulation now too, she maybe young and new at this Elder Dragon thing but she's is still connected to it all and knows a lot more about it that we do.