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EoD expansion should have new RAID


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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

I already explained how this argument is flawed. The developers make mistakes and HAVE made sever mistakes in regards to this game. Some of which needed immediate correction and saw immediate correction. I am not going to debate facts in circles with someone who just wants to win a forum thread but is incapable of simple analysis.

So your counter to my point is 'people make mistakes' ... like somehow Anet miscalculated the revenues raids generated? Um .. OK.

I am going to stop here. You are making a fool of yourself. Again. Feel free to reread what was written and actually address points made.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is not long term sustainable for ArenaNet.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent, because you said its content that exists and sustains itself, which applies to raids/fractals/wvw, so what is "sustainable"? gem store? and living world? going back to the argument that people should not even play this game if the only thing to do in guild wars is to log in once in a blue moon for stories and to buy shiny things

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids so clearly there are better opportunites ... or it's NOT sustainable content. You believe raids were part of that 'sustainable business' formula for them? I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create its revenues? OFC it does. If raids were top of that list, do you NOT think Anet would find a way to continue delivering raids? I mean ... they find a way to continue delivering LOTS of other things? Why do you think that is?

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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent,...

No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent,...

No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question, I never asked for a definition, I said what is sustainable in gw2? do you even play the game?

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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent,...

No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.All revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop just gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent,...

No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

the world boss teleporter is practically for the core game, which btw, we never got any new world bosses in the core game, which kinda shows that your argument is once again failing, since you claim they do not develop raids because they do not get money...then why arent they developing some world bosses too, if they make money (who even buys that teleporter?)? besides drakkar which is expansion-limited and LS limited, world bosses are dead content.
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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:unsustainable content, lmao, then the entire game, besides gem store and LW is unsastainable

If the game itself wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be here ... LIKE RAIDS.

following your logic, the entire game is unsastainable, besides gem store and LW, and maybe fractals considering we got sunqua recent

That makes no sense ... obviously the game sustains itself with the content that exists because the game exists.

hahahahah finally you just stab yourself in your foot, PPL play RAIDS, and u CLAIM its not sustaining itself hahahah

There is no stab in the foot. People playing raids is not proof it's sustainable content. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Content that generates it's expected ROI is sustainable.

what is sustainable content in gw2 according to u?

I LITERALLY just explained to you in the post you quoted what sustainable content in GW2 means according to me.

you havent,...

No, I did. I can assure you the post I quoted is EXACTLY how I define what sustainable content in GW2 is according to me. Content that generates its expected ROI is sustainable.

GIVE EXAMPLES, what is so hard to get in my question

Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

I mean, think about this for a minute ... Anet SELLS an item ONLY in the GS that warps you to world boss events in CORE ... do you think they would do that if this ORIGINAL content wasn't sustaining their business? That's about as good an example of what I'm talking about as you can get.

the world boss teleporter is practically for the core game, which btw, we never got any new world bosses in the core game, which kinda shows that your argument is once again failing, since you claim they do not develop raids because they do not get money...then why arent they developing some world bosses too? besides drakkar which is expansion-limited and LS limited, world bosses are dead content.

Actually no ... the fact that Anet SUPPORTS core content with a sellable items is evidence of my point that Anet knows where to invest their resources to create revenue in the game. See, even though Anet doesn't create more core bosses, they understand people still do this content and realize an opportunity to generate revenue from it ...

now contrast that with raids ...

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.
All
revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop
just
gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

couldnt agree more, people who are long term engaged in the game are more likely to spend gems, therefore raids/wvw/fractals are the only long term content that people are doing, whilst waiting for the same kind of content, they just go along with boring failed stuff like the new DRMs NO ONE asked for

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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.
All
revenue comes from the gemstore. Gemstore items obviously have insanely high ROI. That doesn't mean you can develop
just
gemstore items and call it a day, since that supposedly would sustain the game for years to come alone, according to your highly flawed ROI data only driven argument.

couldnt agree more, people who are long term engaged in the game are more likely to spend gems, therefore raids/wvw/fractals are the only long term content that people are doing, whilst waiting for the same kind of content, they just go along with boring failed stuff like the new DRMs NO ONE asked for

That's just self serving ... you have NO idea what portion of the community are doing the various content in the game to claim any one of those content elements is better for revenues over any other.

On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based. Clearly, the amount of player investment/engagement in raids was lacking to justify continued development of raids, likely from a revenue perspective.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things.., I think I am gonna wait before even considering buying EoD, if no raid will be announced

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@Obtena.7952 said:On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

Yes. It's also why they started with 3 Raid wings, then added 4 more. If their choice of content creation was based on revenue, then that means at least the initial Raids were doing fine in earning revenue, wouldn't they? Based on your own argument.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:On the other hand, it's pretty obvious based on the content Anet continues to develop what does.

Yes. It's also why they started with 3 Raid wings, then added 4 more. If their choice of content creation was based on revenue, then that means at least the initial Raids were doing fine in earning revenue, wouldn't they? Based on your own argument.

yeah that could be true. But we aren't rehashing what happened when they started to justify why they should come back now ... that wouldn't make any sense now would it?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based.

There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here

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@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things..

Actually it's not pointless because if you continued reading, you would see he acknowledges player engagement in content is what drives revenues.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

yes, the whole argument of raids not bringing revenue is pointless...buying gems or buying the expansions is what gives them money, plus actually keeping the ppl engaged long term so that they WANT to even purchase things..

Actually it's not pointless because if you continued reading, you would see he acknowledges player engagement in content is what drives revenues.

actually no, he/she clearly said : "There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here"

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

How? That's not how it works. Time spent does not necessarily equal engagement/spending.

If you grind Silverwastes for 200 hours in order to craft a Legendary (and happen to buy some gemstore items along the way), what drove your engagement is the Legendary Crafting they developed, not the open world farm per se.

If I quit Raids because of lack of content and all the communities I liked falling apart, but still play Living World releases while hoping/waiting for new endgame content, LW is not what drove my engagement.

There is no way to measure that, and looking at the revenue, Anet clearly mis-calculated/managed.

@Obtena.7952 said:Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

If they are all that's needed to support the game, why is revenue in a record low since they are only focusing on exactly that?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:It's not about player interest ... it's about revenue.

Revenue comes from the gem store, not from content, at least that's what happens before we include expansions. Content itself doesn't bring revenue directly to the game. The only "question" is if player investment/engagement also drives revenue or not, I'd say that it does. And the lack of attention does reduce player engagement.

True, that's LITERALLY where revenue comes from ... but there is no debate that what drives players to spend IS content based.

There is a lot of debate there. You are saying content played plays a role if a player buys a raptor skin or outfit? That's simple non-sense, there is no correlation here

Nope, I'm not saying that all. What makes a player play this game? It's the content. If there isn't content people want to play, it doesn't matter what's in the GS cause no one is going to buy it.

There are LOTS of factors that determine if a player spends money on the game ... but we aren't talking about individual players. We are talking about segments of the population doing specific content how that segment's spend influences that content development.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@Asum.4960 said:The question now is though, how do they move forward with the game, especially if long term success is the goal - something I'd very much would like to see for GW2 and ArenaNet.

Obviously not with new raids. That was an experiment that failed horribly for them. Any calls to try that experiment again are just insane.

Failed horribly? For someone who is reading arguments very selectively and shutting everything, no matter how well argued or founded, down due to lacking impossible insider hard data, you sure throw around very harsh, but equally if not more so unfounded points.

How did Raids fail "horribly", in engaging as much as 30% of the observable community, bringing thousands together into communities for hours of weekly play, likely splashing into all other modes beyond that. Providing some of the most engaging, and for many best Anet has ever done, content. Creating some of the most viewed community events in the games history?

A horribly failure to me implies that they died on arrival and nothing ever came of it.

And how is the decline of Raids different to basically everything else?Did Dungeons Fail horribly? Guild Missions? Fractals? Strikes? Bounties? Legendary Crafting? WvW? PvP? and on and on, or could there, as argued but ignored, be a very well founded other explanation for why all that content got tossed aside, and that there was a bigger undelaying problem in place?

What, according to you, didn't fail horribly? LW? just because it's the one thing still developed? And if so, why is revenue in record lows then?

If raids were worth it for Anet to continue developing, we would still be getting new raids. I'm just going to keep bringing you back to this FUNDAMENTALLY TRUE statement. Will a new expansion make it worth it? What would make you think so?

If this were true, the game would be in a far better state (or worse, but worse at this point would have meant shut down).

Given it is not and assuming better financial performance might have been possible or is possible AND accounting for the dozens of mistakes in distribution of resources made so far by the studio, your basis for your argument is weak. Very weak to not say strait up incorrect.

There isn't any weak argument here. If raids were sustainable content, we would likely have more raids. The fact we DON'T shows they aren't sustainable or there is a BETTER opportunity for Anet to create sustainable content.

They were working on other games to move on to, while the neglected GW2 slid into revenue freefall, and won't be around that much longer unless some of those things, which helped sustain the game and ensure that it is in fact still around, are brought back. The current course (of the last ~2 years), obviously is
not
long term sustainable.

OK ... that doesn't change what I said ... if raids were sustainable content, we would still have raids. I mean, do you honestly think a business doesn't know what products and content DOESN'T create it's revenues? OFC it does.

A video game, especially one as broad as an MMO isn't a supermarket where you know which products go off the shelves quickly and which gather dust.

If thousands of players are really just there for Raids, Guild/Community events, Fractals etc., and just happen to play content like LW while waiting/hoping for those and would leave without that, (which many, many did, as the declining revenue shows) how does a company quantify what primarily contributed to their spending?

I really don't understand what you think kind of magical analytic tools exist that can read players minds on what content they are engaged by and on what level, beyond hours spend - which by far does not tell the whole story.

It's not magic ... what makes you think Anet can't measure where a player spends their time and how much they spend? And if they do that for every player, they can attribute revenue spent to game content played.

How? That's not how it works. Time spent does not necessarily equal engagement/spending.

If you grind Silverwastes for 200 hours in order to craft a Legendary (and happen to buy some gemstore items along the way), what drove your engagement is the Legendary Crafting they developed,
not
the open world farm per se.

If I quit Raids because of lack of content and all the communities I liked falling apart, but still play Living World releases while hoping/waiting for new endgame content, LW is not what drove my engagement.

There is no way to measure that, and looking at the revenue, Anet clearly mis-calculated/managed.

@Obtena.7952 said:Give examples of what? Content that generates ROI? Probably all the content they continue to create in the game that they have created for a very long time; LS, new maps, new skins, storyline, map metas, etc ...

If they are all that's needed to support the game, why is revenue in a record low since they are only focusing on exactly that?

maybe also good to mention in order to get LEGENDARY ARMOR you need to RAID, so are you telling me that is not motivating for players to play raids @Obtena.7952

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