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Elite specialization tradeoffs?


Shroud.2307

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I would say the the support is made diferently, IMO renegade is more condi focused than herald.Herald: decent heals and range denial, strong regen for its alies and some buffs arround the caster, reminds the Orders Necromancer from GW1, overal more support arround caster than renegade.Renegade: Heals trough vampiric support more condi centred than herald, can provide perma alacrity, overal more dps capabilioties arround caster than herald.

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:I think that's likely more significantly difficult than you'd think since those core trait lines are also usable by the elite specs. That and it would be a whole lot more power creep. If people thought the initial HoT e-spec intro was power creep, multiple that x5.

I don't think it'd be all that much power creep if Warrior's Defence trait line suddenly becomes something that is worth giving up Berserker or Spellbreaker.It could even be some niche traits like "You receive 30% less condition damage while staying in an enemy AoE."Such a trait would make Defence a bit more viable for PvP again after Arenanet practically gutted it.

You're only presenting one trait in one traitline on one profession. I never said buffs can't happen, just that it would create a lot of more powerful combinations over what is currently available. On top of that, you're advocating adding to the core so you can give even more (by removing trade-offs) from the e-specs. Just using basic math, that will create a greater sum of power from every angle.

Of course the solution there is just to give to core in a way that the elite specs can't benefit from. Using Engineer as an example (because I know that class best), it has two primary DPS traitlines, Explosives and Firearms. The Tools traitline does have some DPS traits, but there are just so few of them and they're so weak that there is no reason to take Tools over Explosives in a PvE scenario, and core engineer with only two decent DPS traitlines is far outperformed by Holosmith with three decent DPS traitlines.

A buff to the DPS on Tools would make core engineer far more competetive DPS-wise with holosmith, while avoiding the risk of powercreeping holo. It wouldn't create a more powerful combination for the elite specs (just greater build diversity, which isn't a bad thing), because they can only take advantage of two core traitlines at once.

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Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

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@"Shroud.2307" said:

  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

Wrong.

  • The Mirage tradeoff is the reduced ability to move while dodging. The movement is very limited to the sides and almost null backward so you often end caught by AoE attacks. The "Endurance bar reduced to 1" is a plain nerf, in fact, an overnerf they did to not dedicate time to rework what was needed. Its lack of sustain, something all mesmers suffer, make it not desirable in the actual meta.

  • Chronomancer actually is an "on-off" dps rely on slow. It lost the old boon share bunker capability and also the distortion. The lose of distortion is mainly its tradeoff. It's an "all in" specialization that die easily although hit hard when are able to set up a good combo which need/take several actions to be success. Its null defence make it not desirable today in PvP. Not against good players.

Actually the lack of sustain kill both and core mesmer as desirable profession in competitive modes. Well, in WvW, also due to the useless illusions there, as they die almost instantly against enemy attacks. You are relegated to a roamer role if you are skilled enough and with the nerfed Mirage.

There is an upcoming tournament in PvP. Lets see how many mesmers will be there... A bet? Almost sure that none. When there is money and prizes involved, you do not play with something inferior even if your brain/heart wish otherwise.

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@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is huge and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:

  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a 46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?

  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "fuck you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

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@"Shroud.2307" said:What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know;

  • Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5

  • Holosmith: No access to elite F5

  • Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration

  • Scourge: Some traits (Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire) work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud.

  • Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal

  • Deadeye: Steal is replaced

  • Herald: Energy F2/legend buff replaced

  • Renegade: Same as above

  • Druid: Reduced pet damage

  • Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time

  • Berserker: Reduced armor

  • Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline

  • Dragonhunter: No more instants

  • Firebrand: No more instants

  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1

  • Chronomancer: Shatters changed, Distortion replaced by Continuum Split which has a MUCH longer cooldown

  • Tempest: No real tradeoff, Core Ele is simply in shambles, plz Anet

  • Weaver: 4 and 5 skills locked behind 2nd attunement

Tradeoff = a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise."a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"

Which of these elite specs do not have this?

Updated the OP

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

Some elite spec. are not base off there wepon but there should be room to let the core class get all of the weapons unless you want them to to get utility as well? We for sure cant give them any F1-F5 the main reason for elite spec.

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose. Nothing would changes for the elite spec and most ppl will still play the elite spec only but the core class would get a lot.

Adding chose could also mean adding to the base chose or the null and not adding to the out comes.

Ele would lose its F1-F5 effects as well as duel skills and a trait line that give the highest dps chose as well as best def chose.

Also i have to add this lol dagger on ranger.

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@Zoser.7245 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:
  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

Wrong.
  • The Mirage tradeoff is the reduced ability to move while dodging. The movement is very limited to the sides and almost null backward so you often end caught by AoE attacks. The "Endurance bar reduced to 1" is a plain nerf, in fact, an
    overnerf
    they did to not dedicate time to rework what was needed. Its lack of sustain, something all mesmers suffer, make it not desirable in the actual meta.

Wrong, you have actually more precise control over your movement here than in regular dodge and you can cast while in it. If you want to move in one direction like you would with regular dodge, pressing R has you covered. And mirage has more means of avoiding dmg than his regular endurance-fueled dodge.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

By what logic "core should get some effects from its elite spec"?

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose.

Giving e-spec weapon to core class doesn't make an e-spec "lose something", what are you even talking about?

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@phokus.8934 said:Mirages trade-off is it gets a different dodge. It was just flat out nerfed in pvp and wvw but retains its two dodges in pve.

A different dodge + tieing a very powerful skill (Amushes) to it right after only.

I do hope they optimize this one's shatters like they did chrono, I thought I remember a post/comment about them saying they would look into for mirage as well.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

By what logic "core should get some effects from its elite spec"?

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose.

Giving e-spec weapon to core class doesn't make an e-spec "lose something", what are you even talking about?

If the game updates with elite spec the ideal of being a gen. class must update as well. So throwing in a new wepon would be the best way for the core classes to keep up with the ideal of being a gen. class as well as makes the elite spec more specialized in there wepon set by losing other elite spec weapons that the core class has as well.

If you give core the weapons of the elite spec then when you chose an elite spec you lose the set of weapons from all other elite spec as well as what the core class has.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

Some elite spec. are not base off there wepon but there should be room to let the core class get all of the weapons unless you want them to to get utility as well? We for sure cant give them any F1-F5 the main reason for elite spec.

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose. Nothing would changes for the elite spec and most ppl will still play the elite spec only but the core class would get a lot.

Adding chose could also mean adding to the base chose or the null and not adding to the out comes.

Ele would lose its F1-F5 effects as well as duel skills and a trait line that give the highest dps chose as well as best def chose.

Also i have to add this lol dagger on ranger.

You still ignore that this change would screw over engineer.

I get it, your main seems to be elementalist and this class would benefit alot from this system, since your class would be able to use both elite spec weapons in the same build and it would unlock tons of new skills for your class which you all can use at full potential. But as a main of a class which would turn out to be the biggest loser of this change, I am against this to happen.

Also: why lol to dagger on ranger? You realise that mainhand dagger is meta in PvE for both, power soulbeast and condi soulbeast? It is a great PvE weapon.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:weaver has 3. reduced attune cd but 4 sec lockout from switching, 3rd skill is replaced by dual attacks, and can't realistically access 3rd 4th or 5th weapon skills on demand cuz you're always one attunement behind.

trash class.

Havent player my weaver on wvw yet, but I believe that after some gameplay (took me a day of solo in HoT group events) you understand how the rotation goes. Condi weaver is a very rewarding spec in pve imo. I can totally see why burning won't be of good use in wvw however, since all roamers have a form of cleansing. Of course, I am not an ele main and can't say for sure if I understand the tradeoff of the spec yet, so just gave 2 cents on it.

P.S. I hated weaver as much as one week ago and it was the spec I refused to touch, but now im confident in saying that it has probably some of the most active and fun gameplay.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:weaver has 3. reduced attune cd but 4 sec lockout from switching, 3rd skill is replaced by dual attacks, and can't realistically access 3rd 4th or 5th weapon skills on demand cuz you're always one attunement behind.

trash class.

"3rd skill is replaced by dual attacks", this doesn't really count as a trade off, since this statement isn't really true.

You can still get access to the "normal" 3rd skills of the core weapons through 2 methods: double attuning to the same element or using the utility skill unravel.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:weaver has 3. reduced attune cd but 4 sec lockout from switching, 3rd skill is replaced by dual attacks, and can't realistically access 3rd 4th or 5th weapon skills on demand cuz you're always one attunement behind.

trash class.

"3rd skill is replaced by dual attacks", this doesn't really count as a trade off, since this statement isn't really true.

You can still get access to the "normal" 3rd skills of the core weapons through 2 methods: double attuning to the same element or using the utility skill unravel.

that statement is true, so is the one proceeding it but don't address that one for reasons.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

Some elite spec. are not base off there wepon but there should be room to let the core class get all of the weapons unless you want them to to get utility as well? We for sure cant give them any F1-F5 the main reason for elite spec.

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose. Nothing would changes for the elite spec and most ppl will still play the elite spec only but the core class would get a lot.

Adding chose could also mean adding to the base chose or the null and not adding to the out comes.

Ele would lose its F1-F5 effects as well as duel skills and a trait line that give the highest dps chose as well as best def chose.

Also i have to add this lol dagger on ranger.

You still ignore that this change would screw over engineer.

I get it, your main seems to be elementalist and this class would benefit alot from this system, since your class would be able to use both elite spec weapons in the same build and it would unlock tons of new skills for your class which you all can use at full potential. But as a main of a class which would turn out to be the biggest loser of this change, I am against this to happen.

Also: why lol to dagger on ranger? You realise that mainhand dagger is meta in PvE for both, power soulbeast and condi soulbeast? It is a great PvE weapon.

So giving core eng the ability to use sword and hammer and what ever is coming next will screw over eng how?

Ele would get some effect from it but its realty the 2h weapons that would be MUCH stronger added to the core class like eng getting hammer.

Yes SOULBEAST dagger i asume there are some effects from soulbeast that makes it a good dps class in pve but that the point for adding in elite spec weapons to core classes to bering up the core classes on some level to the elite spec AND at the same time give the elite spec a real cost to choosing to be an elite spec.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:
  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

Wrong.
  • The Mirage tradeoff is the reduced ability to move while dodging. The movement is very limited to the sides and almost null backward so you often end caught by AoE attacks. The "Endurance bar reduced to 1" is a plain nerf, in fact, an
    overnerf
    they did to not dedicate time to rework what was needed. Its lack of sustain, something all mesmers suffer, make it not desirable in the actual meta.

Wrong, you have actually more precise control over your movement here than in regular dodge and you can cast while in it. If you want to move in one direction like you would with regular dodge, pressing R has you covered. And mirage has more means of avoiding dmg than his regular endurance-fueled dodge.

Going fordward cover you? You are predictable and the AoE in this game cover a lot area often. Remember that you only have a single dodge... It's very easy place your AoE in a way that those means to avoid damage that Mirage has must be used always in a defensive way to flee rather than to reposition or used offensively. Cast while dodge is an advantage yes, but now with a single dodge you don't have enough burst and time to profit it before being forced to escape. You lack the sustain needed to be there and profit it, something that the two dodges let you do it in the past. They nailed the greatest nerf possible with the single dodge for Mirage in PvP/WvW.

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@"Jski.6180" said:

So giving core eng the ability to use sword and hammer and what ever is coming next will screw over eng how?

You are ignoring the big picture. Balance is always relative.

Literally every other class is getting more out of this change than engineer. The only class that doesn't have weapon swap besides engineer is elementalist, yet elementalist is still getting more than engineer, because they can use both their elite spec weapons at the same time (sword mainhand, warhorn offhand).Engineer can't combine their elite spec weapons, since one of them is 2handed.

Additionally, sword on engineer is useless as I already explained, because the weapon is losing way too much without access to the photon forge.

All the other classes have weapon swap, so even if they happen to have 2handed elite spec weapons, they can still take them both. Like how thief could use staff as their first weapon and rifle as their second.

Relative to the other classes, engineer is getting way less benefit from such a change, making it ultimately the loser of such a system alternation.

Ele would get some effect from it but its realty the 2h weapons that would be MUCH stronger added to the core class like eng getting hammer.

Some effect... are we forgetting that elementalist gets 4 times the skills as other classes from their weapons? This change here would add 20 new weapon skills

Yes SOULBEAST dagger i asume there are some effects from soulbeast that makes it a good dps class in pve but that the point for adding in elite spec weapons to core classes to bering up the core classes on some level to the elite spec AND at the same time give the elite spec a real cost to choosing to be an elite spec.

You are missing the point once again. If soulbeast's dagger is user in the meta builds, then this weapon is obviously stronger than the core weapons available to ranger. Because if it wouldn't be stronger, then these builds would use something else than the dagger, since soulbeast does have access to all the core weapons as well.

So "lol to ranger dagger" makes no sense. It is a stronger weapon than ranger core weapons, which means that adding it to core ranger would benefit that class.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:

So giving core eng the ability to use sword and hammer and what ever is coming next will screw over eng how?

You are ignoring the big picture. Balance is always relative.

Literally every other class is getting more out of this change than engineer. The only class that doesn't have weapon swap besides engineer is elementalist, yet elementalist is still getting more than engineer, because they can use both their elite spec weapons at the same time (sword mainhand, warhorn offhand).Engineer can't combine their elite spec weapons, since one of them is 2handed.

Additionally, sword on engineer is useless as I already explained, because the weapon is losing way too much without access to the photon forge.

All the other classes have weapon swap, so even if they happen to have 2handed elite spec weapons, they can still take them both. Like how thief
could
use staff as their first weapon and rifle as their second.

Relative to the other classes, engineer is getting way less benefit from such a change, making it ultimately the loser of such a system alternation.

Ele would get some effect from it but its realty the 2h weapons that would be MUCH stronger added to the core class like eng getting hammer.

Some
effect... are we forgetting that elementalist gets 4 times the skills as other classes from their weapons? This change here would add 20 new weapon skills

Yes SOULBEAST dagger i asume there are some effects from soulbeast that makes it a good dps class in pve but that the point for adding in elite spec weapons to core classes to bering up the core classes on some level to the elite spec AND at the same time give the elite spec a real cost to choosing to be an elite spec.

You are missing the point once again. If soulbeast's dagger is user in the meta builds, then this weapon is obviously stronger than the core weapons available to ranger. Because if it wouldn't be stronger, then these builds would use something else than the dagger, since soulbeast does have access to all the core weapons as well.

So "lol to ranger dagger" makes no sense. It is a stronger weapon than ranger core weapons, which means that adding it to core ranger would benefit that class.

But that not the point of balancing the core class is always going to be weaker then the elite spec for the wepon chose the only thing that makes the core class of use is its ability for gen. use. As things stand anet dose not seem to be intent to adding any thing to the core classes what WOULD balance them with there elite spec but in fact anet seems more then willing to nerf the core classes to balance the elite spec. So as things stand there no real world trad off from not chose an elite spec line vs running the core class. Letting the core classes simply get the ability to use the basic level elite spec weapons would simply be a progression of adding to there gen. effect when anet adds inmore power creep.

Just having more skills dose not mean its better core ele is MUCH less able to go into melee then weaver even tempest is a bit more able to go into melee.

That the point your core ranger vs soulbeast for dagger is not about giving ranger more condi dps is about giving the core ranger more chose to how they play with out going an elite spec. Core classes are the gen. class in this game and they should be able to do every thing there elite spec dose on some level but not as well. Giving core ranger a dagger not going to remove soulbeast use for dagger but it will make druid lose the ability to use dagger vs core ranger dagger use a real trade off and a real chose.

That is the big pic of the game they will nerf the core classes more and more to make the elite spec more balanced and this means there is no trade off.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Another though is to give core classes all of the weapons there elite spec can use. It would give core classes something new every expansion and a kind of lose for each elite spec vs its core class. Example ele core would be able to use both sword and WH but tempest cant use sword and weaver cant use WH.

Was suggested alot, but this suggestion doesn't really work in my opinion because of how some weapons function.

Holosmith's sword, for example, has quite alot of it's power budget locked behind the heat mechanic. Getting a 20% damage buff is
huge
and in general, tons of damage are locked behind the heat levels.

Without the photon forge, the sword is just plain bad as a weapon. Which means that engineer just gets 1 functional weapon in this case (hammer), while other professions get the luxury of 2 functioning and powerful weapons. I don't think something like this should be treated so unfairly.

Well ya that the point of balancing and how it would work. The weapons on the core class would be very basic level but it still opens up skill and chose to the core class that elite spec do not have. Core being the gen of the class would not use the weapons as well as the elite spec.

It seems you are missing my point.

Some classes are not restricted in their usage of their new elite spec weapon. Core necromancer can use greatsword and torch almost just as efficiently as their elite specs. Same for ranger with dagger and staff.

But then there are other classes which have their weapons cut extremely in efficiency, like holosmith with their sword. Without the heat mechanic, engineer loses on sword:
  • auto attack: 20% damage
  • Skill 2: 1.1 power coefficient (losing the 4 additional blades from heat level), which means a
    46% damage loss in PvE and a 52% damage loss in PvP
  • Skill 3: 4 seconds of quickness in PvE and 2 seconds of quickness in PvP

Meanwhile what would ranger lose from their weapons?
  • Staff: 20% cooldown and daze on weapon swap
  • Dagger: literally nothing lost

I think the difference in efficiency is too big here.Also engineer doesn't get a choice that elite spec doesn't have.... engineer's elite spec weapons so far are hammer and sword. You can't use both weapons, since hammer is 2handed and engineer doesn't have weapon swap. Other classes like elementalist are favoured, yes, since they would be able to combine their elite spec weapons, which their elite specs couldn't do.

So in general: this system would be a gigantic "kitten you" to engineers. I prefer to not go that route and keep the system as it is.

I get that but that is what though classes are specialized in. Core is a gen. class so it should get some effects from its elite spec.

By what logic "core should get some effects from its elite spec"?

The elite spec should lose something and giving core classes all of the elite spec weapons would be a real lost for each elite spec chose.

Giving e-spec weapon to core class doesn't make an e-spec "lose something", what are you even talking about?

If the game updates with elite spec the ideal of being a gen. class must update as well. So throwing in a new wepon would be the best way for the core classes to keep up with the ideal of being a gen. class as well as makes the elite spec more specialized in there wepon set by losing other elite spec weapons that the core class has as well.

If you give core the weapons of the elite spec then when you chose an elite spec you lose the set of weapons from all other elite spec as well as what the core class has.

But considering some of the weapons will be barely usable outside of their respective especs, it means that choosing "the other espec" doesn't really use anything valuable. You're just looking at it from the perspective of "wanting sword on ele" and that's about it, right? :D > @Zoser.7245 said:

@"Shroud.2307" said:
  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

Wrong.
  • The Mirage tradeoff is the reduced ability to move while dodging. The movement is very limited to the sides and almost null backward so you often end caught by AoE attacks. The "Endurance bar reduced to 1" is a plain nerf, in fact, an
    overnerf
    they did to not dedicate time to rework what was needed. Its lack of sustain, something all mesmers suffer, make it not desirable in the actual meta.

Wrong, you have actually more precise control over your movement here than in regular dodge and you can cast while in it. If you want to move in one direction like you would with regular dodge, pressing R has you covered. And mirage has more means of avoiding dmg than his regular endurance-fueled dodge.

Going fordward cover you? You are predictable and the AoE in this game cover a lot area often. Remember that you only have a single dodge...

Yeah, because you can totally "only go forward". Tbh I don't really understand what you mean by "going forward cover you"?

It's very easy place your AoE in a way that those means to avoid damage that Mirage has must be used always in a defensive way to flee rather than to reposition or used offensively.

That's false and it can be easly used as both at the same time.

Cast while dodge is an advantage yes, but

It's an advantage but mirages like to consistently pretend everything about that is a disadvantage, so... yeah, "just saying".

now with a single dodge you don't have enough burst and time to profit it before being forced to escape.

If you think mirage doesn't have enough burst then you don't seem to be a good mirage. Same goes if you think mirage is some kind of "one-dodge-and-done" type of deal, because it's not (outside of players who literally try to burst you down ONCE and kill or run away, because these are also the players I sometimes meet playing mirage).

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@"Sobx.1758" said:

Going fordward cover you? You are predictable and the AoE in this game cover a lot area often. Remember that you only have a single dodge...

Yeah, because you can totally "only go forward". Tbh I don't really understand what you mean by "going forward cover you"?

I mean that a single dodge cover x distance if you go forward and with 2 dodges you cover twice distance without the need to use other skills or save one dodge for other purpose. The single dodge don't cover what you have lost, that is.

It's very easy place your AoE in a way that those means to avoid damage that Mirage has must be used always in a defensive way to flee rather than to reposition or used offensively.That's false and it can be easly used as both at the same time.

Yes, maybe i did not explained it properly. What i mean is that now you lost flexibility and use them offensively is not optimal in several situations when you don't have the second dodge as a backup. So you also lost that option.

now with a single dodge you don't have enough burst and time to profit it before being forced to escape.

If you think mirage doesn't have enough burst then you don't seem to be a good mirage.

I'm not thinking that. But obviously Mirage lost burst from being able to ambush twice. If you only have one maybe that should be as decisive as the skills of other professions have available or balance better all them.

Same goes if you think mirage is some kind of "one-dodge-and-done" type of deal, because it's not (outside of players who literally try to burst you down ONCE and kill or run away, because these are also the players I sometimes meet playing mirage).

I don't think so.Anyways, the single nerf they did affect Mirage in several ways. And some of them were not needed and now you miss those things.

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@Sobx.1758

Its not important if you get use out of or not as long as your a core class you should have the chose to use the wepon of all of the class elite spec. as the core class is the gen. class and with out it your elite spec ARE the weapons or the elite spec is simply power creep from the core class not a real chose with trade offs.

I am not realty one who wants a sword on core ele i can see its use but i like dagger way more i very much dislike sword on the weaver class the range on the attks are way too short. If any thing i want to see the next elite spec weapons set (every one is hoping ele getting another 1,200 ranged wepon).

Over all i want to see core classes have a real place in this game and not just be a pure chopping block class where you have your free game as core classes only and pay to have elite spec. Up to this point anet seems intent to make GW2 a more P2W game by making elite spec get every thing from expansion and nothing for the core classes not even real trade off for choosing to be an elite spec vs a core class. This would be something and be impossible to over power the core classes in the process(as a core class can not use a elite spec wepon better then that eleit spec.)

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