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Too long, too tough, too risky


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People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

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I think that Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef are harder, what makes Sunqua Peak especially bad is that its boss is just a health sponge just like the others, but in Suqnua you can only burn the boss very rarely even with breaking every single bar.

She spends way too much time moving all around a very large arena. It was presumably to make it challenging, and to require bar breaking, but like I said even breaking the bars doesn't give you sufficient windows of oppertunity.

Plays without teleports/shadowsteps/etc. are stuck doing piddly ranged damage for most of the fight.

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Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef if you deploy the right tactics is less difficult. I enjoyed Sunqua less then other fracs probably due to how time consuming, the risk of failure to redo Spellcaster. She has too much roaming space and chasing her around is tiring if you are a melee player. There is also too many pauses and dialogs that prolongs this frac. My worse experience is with this spellcaster's fights, if I am not bugged out refighting her is quite time consuming. At this rate I am more likely going to sit out sunquas as I find the risk to reward too low. Both Sunqua frac 75 and 100 are equally tough to beat.Perhaps Anet should do a checkpoint on her according to the combat phrase she is in. Saves everyone alot of frustration I am sure. As well as shorten or allow skip on some unneccessary phrases.

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@medivh.4725 said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

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@medivh.4725 said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Even on CM with the extra/double Phase the fight is generally <10-15 minutes with a decent group.You might want to consider Condi Builds for this fight if it takes that long, other than self-improvement and trying to look for better groups (also it's a heavy CC check).

I do feel you on the non-CM unskippable roleplay and how long some of the downtimes are on normal modes and wish Anet would add an optional skip to that beyond just playing CM's for Rec's and those who can't or don't want to play at that level.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Even on CM with the extra/double Phase the fight is generally <10-15 minutes with a decent group.You might want to consider Condi Builds for this fight if it takes that long, other than self-improvement and trying to look for better groups (also it's a heavy CC check).

I do feel you on the non-CM unskippable roleplay and how long some of the downtimes are on normal modes and wish Anet would add an optional skip to that beyond just playing CM's for Rec's and those who can't or don't want to play at that level.

This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:

  • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
  • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
  • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

For example, if play Sunqua on T1, and then on T4, there's not much difference except the instabilities, which is where all the difficulty comes from. If the instabilities are easy ones then there's virtually no difference.

Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef have similar issues with scaling downwards, even on T1 they're too annoying.

They're not bad if you have a full party with finely tuned builds, but if you don't they're absolutely terrible. Its like playing in glue. The devs can't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "help I'm falling asleep".

I like Amala the best because its the least snooze-worthy fight out of all the newer encounters.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@medivh.4725 said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

There are water waves, there are mechanic jumps, there are compulsory kills, and there are 2 bossfights prior to spellcaster. If you spend 5 mins on each it is not extragvagent at all. Bosss mechanics has a loading time that cannot be skipped. If you messed up any of the parts it should take longer. Nope 18 minutes not extravagent at all. When I do manage to kill spellcaster, it is easily 30 minutes spend for the Sunqua frac. She don't die easy and her mechanics obviously have their loading time.

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@medivh.4725 said:There are water waves, there are mechanic jumps, there are compulsory kills, and there are 2 bossfights prior to spellcaster. If you spend 5 mins on each it is not extragvagent at all. Bosss mechanics has a loading time that cannot be skipped. If you messed up any of the parts it should take longer. Nope 18 minutes not extravagent at all. When I do manage to kill spellcaster, it is easily 30 minutes spend for the Sunqua frac. She don't die easy and her mechanics obviously have their loading time.

Thats entirely on your end 8min-10min is the absolute max this fight should take even with off meta builds. 18min means your group does less than 1/4th of an average group with a healer.There is a 15min cm solo and like i wrote earlier the boss has much higher hp in cm. This means that your 5 player group somehow manages to do a lot less dmg than a single player without any support.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:

This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:

  • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
  • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
  • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

It scales. Normal bosses have much lower health than cm and the low hp make arkk bug out frequently if you phase him too fast in t1For example, if play Sunqua on T1, and then on T4, there's not much difference except the instabilities, which is where all the difficulty comes from. If the instabilities are easy ones then there's virtually no difference.

Shattered Observatory and Siren's Reef have similar issues with scaling downwards, even on T1 they're too annoying.

Everything in t1 or t2 has next to 0 hp. The dialogue is super annoying though.They're not bad if you have a full party with finely tuned builds, but if you don't they're absolutely terrible. Its like playing in glue. The devs can't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "help I'm falling asleep".

I sometimes pug lower tiers and all you need is a single good dps player with a good build. Condi firebrand can carry sirens reef like no other profession. The problem is that some players walk in with 0dmg open world builds and complain about hp sponges while veteran players kill or phase everything within seconds.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:

This has been a problem with all the new Fractals:
  • Excessive dialog, with excessive pauses before the next section (Twilight Oasis tends to be better than others here).
  • Excessively long puzzles (Deepstone, Shattered Observatory orbs, etc.).
  • Excessive boss health that is okay on CM but doesn't scale down good on T4-T3 and especially T1-T2.

It scales. Normal bosses have much lower health than cm and the low hp make arkk bug out frequently if you phase him too fast in t1

Oof yea, don't remind me. When the game literally punishes you for doing "too much" damage so you just have to Autoattack to not break the phasing of the boss.Good times.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@medivh.4725 said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.Proof:

~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

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@medivh.4725 said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Not only sunqua. Since the Oasis fractal, I've noticed a higher and higher skip percentage in fractals, if you're not running with the meta groups.Which is really sad. I always thought fractals were meant as group content for everyone. But for many new fractals are now equal to raid bosses ...If that's Anet's answer to the fact that no new raids are coming for so long and they're now moving everything, well then good night...

Have already written in another thread about fractals. For something that is a daily offer, the parts now take far too long, with too many mechanics and bling bling. The revisions of many fractals was so unnecessary and the new fractals are all beautiful but... meh.Then they can also finally make raids daily. I rather run the first 4 wings of the raid, than constantly this lightning storm in the fractals ...

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It's simple; I don't do CM anymore since Sunqua.The final boss is just a sponge, it's not that long but basic prerequisites are very specifics, fewer players than before ; wait long minutes for players "blablabla title, kp, kick ragequit etc" do the boss, may be a wipe or two, relog with other class, do the 2 others CMs, doT4 ...It can take 2 hours of your time to do fractals now. It took 1 hour before with less experiented players on CM.

Sure I can do my own group, and wait an hour on the LFG for 99+98, do with guild members. I'm aware, but PUG is fun too.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.Proof:

~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

What both of you are completely missing is that fractals are a progression system with hard ties to your current gear set. it's incredibly expensive to change your infusions around and tedious. Not only that, but it's also a significant investment to get the extra infusion slots on rings + back. ALso, ascended gear ain't cheap either if you actually need the other set.

The reason this matters is climbing out of t2-3 without being some form of balanced stats and/or support is very difficult if not impossible. I had intended to climb as both a weaver and heal tempest but when i realized how long it would take me to infuse gear for both sets, I picked the one with more successful runs and that was heal tempest. I've hard carried groups with other supports with massive heals, so it's still pretty fungible, but if people are intolerant to support or mixed builds, they're essentially going to cut players out from joining t4 mainstream (and cut them off from making a meta set). I'm still going to want to keep my heal tempest geared in case I end up in an all glass cannon group again. Also, it beats a bad heal brand as far as keeping people alive.

And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.Proof:

~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

What both of you are completely missing is that fractals are a progression system with hard ties to your current gear set. it's incredibly expensive to change your infusions around and tedious. Not only that, but it's also a significant investment to get the extra infusion slots on rings + back. ALso, ascended gear ain't cheap either if you actually need the other set.

Attuning rings costs 24s. Infusing them is free. Only backpack infusion is kinda expensive with 250 ectos.The reason this matters is climbing out of t2-3 without being some form of balanced stats and/or support is very difficult if not impossible. I had intended to climb as both a weaver and heal tempest but when i realized how long it would take me to infuse gear for both sets, I picked the one with more successful runs and that was heal tempest. I've hard carried groups with other supports with massive heals, so it's still pretty fungible, but if people are intolerant to support or mixed builds, they're essentially going to cut players out from joining t4 mainstream (and cut them off from making a meta set). I'm still going to want to keep my heal tempest geared in case I end up in an all glass cannon group again. Also, it beats a bad heal brand as far as keeping people alive.

Not sure what you mean as balanced stats but anything besides marauder/berserker/assassin has no place in a fractal power build. They're intolerant towards mixed builds because they are useless.T2 is very easy to solo in full glass. T3 is where you have to start doing mechanics or dodge but it should be no problem to play berserker weaver there. Weaver is not a simple class but the condi version can use very tanky gear like dire or trailblazer if you dont want to look at your screen anymore. Would still do a lot more damage than everything i encountered in t3.Heal tempest needs warhorn for might and most of the ones i encounter use staff. Heal is not the main reason to bring a support. Believe it or not but all fractals are balanced for healerless groups.The problem is that most players dont use reflects, blinds, cc, blocks or dodges and instead started to brute force everything with healing.And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

Because they were never forced to overthink their builds and role. Sunqua suddenly acts as a blocker. I also encountered the support issue in t3 and thats why people in t4 call their role when they join. 2-3 healers, hammer heralds, MMtank necros and rifle deadeyes. I've seen everything. But you can sort out the multiple healer thing before you start.Players shouldnt complain about inflated hp when they bring multiple healers. They shouldnt run 3k dps builds like mm necro in instanced content unless they are new and do t1.There wouldnt be a problem if all the people struggling would accept some help and read guides on discretize. Some players want to play their ego builds no matter how bad it performs and then it isnt the games fault anymore. I had arguments with rifle DEs in sirens reef for example.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

This applies to t1 and t2. T4 is pve endgame and it is vastly easier than the cm. All builds still work and dont block progression since there is not a single hard dps check unless the boss bugs.But T4 should not be balanced for bad builds. Whats the point of lower tiers then? Not all fractals have a cm and T4 is supposed to be highest difficulty. You dont have to play meta. A meta team kills that boss in ~3min. Pug meta in 4min thats why i said you shouldnt take longer than 8-10min because that means you have like 1/3 of the dps of a normal hfb pug if you factor in the timegates. The 18min mentioned earlier would be way less GROUP dps than a SOLO renegade.Proof:

~15min for p1 which is the entire normal fight. It has also quite a lot more hp in cm.

@"medivh.4725" said:People are avoiding Sunqua. No joke.The whole thing just too lengthy, it is too risky, the team may fail, and also sunqua is too tough.I had 3 teams taking on Sorrowful Spellcaster, 7 attempts, none make it. Needless to say it spoits my entire morning/day.You can consider taking out the 1st boss to shorten the Sunqua Peak, and then nerf the spellcaster.

1 spell caster fight is roughly 18 minutes. Now you multiply by 6-7 times. Plus getting to that area takes 25 minutes. That how much time goes into waste.Seriously nerf the spellcaster pls, and shorten this particular frac.

Im not sure where to start. Why do you need 25min to reach the endboss? this shouldnt take more than 8-10min. 25min is the time it takes to reach that area solo.I hope you are vastly exaggerating with 18min per try. A cm group needs 4min for the fight and it has higher health there.This reads like everyone was doing 3k dps max when they could do 30k. I joined some t3 and t4s normals there for fun and the majority of the players used their 0 dps open world builds. The health of the boss is not too high, the builds are too bad. T4 is the highest level. Dont use open world builds in there.

Given fractals were supposed to be designed around having any build initially, I'd say you saying this indicates bad design. Sure, make the 30k dps sponge for the CM, but if people are doing it on normal, it should fall over a little easier IMO. They should really only be forcing meta in CMs and raids, for the sanity and sake of the community.

Tbf, for this fight to take 18 minutes on normal T4 as the OP claims, all party members would have to do <2800 DPS each. Expecting more than that in T4 is hardly "pushing meta" (30-40k DPS, time to kill less than 3 minutes).Even Fractal CM's or Raids are far from requiring the most effective builds to beat.

Non meta builds are one thing, bad builds another, and as I always like to remind players who are struggling, there are builds literally just auto attacking for 15-20k DPS you can go for, there really isn't any excuse to do much less than that, and that has nothing to do with elitism or pushing meta.

What both of you are completely missing is that fractals are a progression system with hard ties to your current gear set. it's incredibly expensive to change your infusions around and tedious. Not only that, but it's also a significant investment to get the extra infusion slots on rings + back. ALso, ascended gear ain't cheap either if you actually need the other set.

Attuning rings costs 24s. Infusing them is free. Only backpack infusion is kinda expensive with 250 ectos.

False: it costs a ton of fractal relics for the materials. They sure as heck haven't dropped enough to infuse both rings even where I am now at the upper part of T3. It's not just the attuning dude. I also mentioned swapping the infusions between gear and earning them. If you don't have enough high infusions for a second set, you're paying a lot of gold and tedium to move them around.

Also if someone doesn't have a second set of ascended gear, which is entirely possible depending on how young their account is, you're asking them to plop 300-400g to get a new set. Ascended gear barely drops every now and then in T3. It's not like it's candy yet.

The reason this matters is climbing out of t2-3 without being some form of balanced stats and/or support is very difficult if not impossible. I had intended to climb as both a weaver and heal tempest but when i realized how long it would take me to infuse gear for both sets, I picked the one with more successful runs and that was heal tempest. I've hard carried groups with other supports with massive heals, so it's still pretty fungible, but if people are intolerant to support or mixed builds, they're essentially going to cut players out from joining t4 mainstream (and cut them off from making a meta set). I'm still going to want to keep my heal tempest geared in case I end up in an all glass cannon group again. Also, it beats a bad heal brand as far as keeping people alive.

Not sure what you mean as balanced stats but anything besides marauder/berserker/assassin has no place in a fractal power build. They're intolerant towards mixed builds because they are useless.

I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, usually and I use warhorn to give might, so even with that buff on a boss, they're not doing much. I'm assuming they're stacking toughness and/or healing. If the other gear types shouldn't be used, the game shouldn't allow them in the game mode, period (or auto-convert stats or something). Especially with how much investment goes to 1 set of fully ascended gear. Ironically enough, I think one of the few people I bump into in t3 every now and them copied my build I distinctly remember them running a DPS build before and I was running charts when I bumped into them again and I noticed they were playing heal tempest. I also out-DPS'd them XD. Fun fact, heal tempest can do more damage than HB. At least I seem to do more damage than them on charts (or all the ones I've bumped into are lousy).

T2 is very easy to solo in full glass. T3 is where you have to start doing mechanics or dodge but it should be no problem to play berserker weaver there. Weaver is not a simple class but the condi version can use very tanky gear like dire or trailblazer if you dont want to look at your screen anymore. Would still do a lot more damage than everything i encountered in t3.Heal tempest needs warhorn for might and most of the ones i encounter use staff. Heal is not the main reason to bring a support. Believe it or not but all fractals are balanced for healerless groups.IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

The problem is that most players dont use reflects, blinds, cc, blocks or dodges and instead started to brute force everything with healing.

And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

Because they were never forced to overthink their builds and role. Sunqua suddenly acts as a blocker. I also encountered the support issue in t3 and thats why people in t4 call their role when they join. 2-3 healers, hammer heralds, MMtank necros and rifle deadeyes. I've seen everything. But you can sort out the multiple healer thing before you start.Players shouldnt complain about inflated hp when they bring multiple healers. They shouldnt run 3k dps builds like mm necro in instanced content unless they are new and do t1.
There wouldnt be a problem if all the people struggling would accept some help and read guides on discretize.
Some players want to play their ego builds no matter how bad it performs and then it isnt the games fault anymore. I had arguments with rifle DEs in sirens reef for example.

Honestly I feel like this is a toxic attitude. as I mentioned before, balance CMs and Raids around metas like that. This game was not conceived with the notion of the PVE meta as-is right now. And to be honest, I think it's egotistical to tell people how to play. There's more pieces of the GW2 meta than any other MMO and that's part of what makes crafting effective groups hard. I find that broken. I'm fine with there being some content that uses it, but I feel like if Anet wants to respect 90%+ of their player base, they should design the game around some of their original goals.

You're also making the assumption that these players are making sub-optimal choices when in reality, they may have adjusted their builds to get through the fractal tiers like I have. Just finding enough people for a lower tier is hard enough (t3 is the pits). It's even worse trying to pack it with the meta as-is. Wiping over and over on a fragile build is not better than just clearing a little slower. To an experienced player the first part never happens. Though even so, I've seen glass cannon players go down easy too. Not all the time, but if they die early in the fight, their DPS is lower than someone with a sturdier build that lasts longer. That's food for thought. You're always going to be better than people learning. how you treat them will determine the fate of the community for fractals moving forward. just remember we already lost 1 end-game activity being supported (raids). Might want to make better decisions than the raiding community with respect to how you interact with players climbing the ladder. It's nice you're helping carry every now and then, but you want them to feel welcomed too.

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Spellcaster seem to have high hp redoing her is indeed taxing. She has just too much space to roam and her mechanics all have load times which adds into the battle time. In the middle potion of Sunqua Peak, there is a talking animal, can we have an option to skip that? It says the same thing everytime right? Strange but in my experience not all players are good with jump puzzles. I have seen with different groups not progressing due to the jump puzzles. Then one will have to get in for the rest to gg.If you are a melee player like I am then chasing the spellcaster around the very wide arena can be quite a chore. Yes I know Capt Crowe also moves alot but is in a very contained, and packed ship. Speaking of which I actually liked Siren Reef's design and enjoyed the concept.
Shattered Lab is also another one with just too much running around, however the boss is very beatable.I think in a frac design where you have abit of jump puzzles, a difficult boss, non skippable dialogues, big roaming areas, the fractal experience is quite stretched. It almost feel like one can get two fractuals done under the same time.Currently I have enough AR to fill just one toon for T4, so I can't switch to the condi build or have a secondary ascended just yet. (Would be nice if I have those, currently I'm working on a healer toon to send into fracs so I can heal people)

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@Firebeard.1746 said:I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, usually and I use warhorn to give might, so even with that buff on a boss, they're not doing much. I'm assuming they're stacking toughness and/or healing. If the other gear types shouldn't be used, the game shouldn't allow them in the game mode, period (or auto-convert stats or something). Especially with how much investment goes to 1 set of fully ascended gear. Ironically enough, I think one of the few people I bump into in t3 every now and them copied my build I distinctly remember them running a DPS build before and I was running charts when I bumped into them again and I noticed they were playing heal tempest. I also out-DPS'd them XD. Fun fact, heal tempest can do more damage than HB. At least I seem to do more damage than them on charts (or all the ones I've bumped into are lousy).

This is the problem right there. Why does nobody believe the experienced players on this? Stat swapping ascended gear isnt that expensive unless you swap to trailblazer. Berserker/assassin is very cheap to swap to. Heal teampest is not good in fracs. Healing in general isnt the approach you should take in fractals when you are struggling. Better ask yourself what killed you and how you can avoid it.

T2 is very easy to solo in full glass. T3 is where you have to start doing mechanics or dodge but it should be no problem to play berserker weaver there. Weaver is not a simple class but the condi version can use very tanky gear like dire or trailblazer if you dont want to look at your screen anymore. Would still do a lot more damage than everything i encountered in t3.Heal tempest needs warhorn for might and most of the ones i encounter use staff. Heal is not the main reason to bring a support. Believe it or not but all fractals are balanced for healerless groups.IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

If you need a healer to survive in t2 then you arent ready for t3 and not at all for t4. Its that simple. More sturdy builds are selfish. You wont die on them but what exactly are you bringing to the team? Somebody has to do damage. T2 is inredible easy. If you need a healer there you are doing something very wrong.

The problem is that most players dont use reflects, blinds, cc, blocks or dodges and instead started to brute force everything with healing.

And going back to OP, Sunqua fairly annoying beacuse 90% of the time, my t3 groups are people with mixed stats and/or supports, because that's what's gotten them that far.

Because they were never forced to overthink their builds and role. Sunqua suddenly acts as a blocker. I also encountered the support issue in t3 and thats why people in t4 call their role when they join. 2-3 healers, hammer heralds, MMtank necros and rifle deadeyes. I've seen everything. But you can sort out the multiple healer thing before you start.Players shouldnt complain about inflated hp when they bring multiple healers. They shouldnt run 3k dps builds like mm necro in instanced content unless they are new and do t1.
There wouldnt be a problem if all the people struggling would accept some help and read guides on discretize.
Some players want to play their ego builds no matter how bad it performs and then it isnt the games fault anymore. I had arguments with rifle DEs in sirens reef for example.

Honestly I feel like this is a toxic attitude. as I mentioned before, balance CMs and Raids around metas like that. This game was not conceived with the notion of the PVE meta as-is right now. And to be honest, I think it's egotistical to tell people how to play. There's more pieces of the GW2 meta than any other MMO and that's part of what makes crafting effective groups hard. I find that broken. I'm fine with there being some content that uses it, but I feel like if Anet wants to respect 90%+ of their player base, they should design the game around some of their original goals.

You're also making the assumption that these players are making sub-optimal choices when in reality, they may have adjusted their builds to get through the fractal tiers like I have. Just finding enough people for a lower tier is hard enough (t3 is the pits). It's even worse trying to pack it with the meta as-is. Wiping over and over on a fragile build is not better than just clearing a little slower. To an experienced player the first part never happens. Though even so, I've seen glass cannon players go down easy too. Not all the time, but if they die early in the fight, their DPS is lower than someone with a sturdier build that lasts longer. That's food for thought. You're always going to be better than people learning. how you treat them will determine the fate of the community for fractals moving forward. just remember we already lost 1 end-game activity being supported (raids). Might want to make better decisions than the raiding community with respect to how you interact with players climbing the ladder. It's nice you're helping carry every now and then, but you want them to feel welcomed too.

I dont make the assumption that they make sub-optimal choices. Im quite certain that they are doing that.Just as I find it funny to expect the content to get nerfed instead of adjusting your own build to it. In order to not play the meta you have to understand the meta first. Why is it toxic to suggest guides written by players who have completed the content a thousand times and figured out whats best? Most of the self brew builds are just not good.

The problem is not that you clear it a little slower, the problem is that a full team manages to do far less damage than a single player without any support like i showed in the video.A bit defense like marauder is fine but 5k dps is almost hfb level.

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Something has to be wrong with someone’s dps. I ran it first time this week blind when it was a daily, I was nervous on ele cause I used to main Mesmer but haven’t played for 3 years almost, cleared the fractal first try in 15 minutes. Not trying to brag, I just can’t believe it’s all that hard when that was my experience with a kind pug that let me learn with them.

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@Riranor.6315 said:Something has to be wrong with someone’s dps. I ran it first time this week blind when it was a daily, I was nervous on ele cause I used to main Mesmer but haven’t played for 3 years almost, cleared the fractal first try in 15 minutes. Not trying to brag, I just can’t believe it’s all that hard when that was my experience with a kind pug that let me learn with them.

I agreed with what you said, something must wrong in that group. With a healer (even not Hb, like auramancer ), it will not take longer than 30 min.

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@WindBlade.8749 said:i don't know i do it everyday and it's probably the most easy cm for me .... don't really know people problems.... and we do it in 5m ......

Because

@Firebeard.1746 said:I don't know what people are running, but I can tell that others in my t3 groups are normally not running DPS builds. They're only hitting 5k tops, ...And learning to brute force every mechanic with heal and toughness starting in t2IN practice healerless groups had the highest failure rate in T2 when I made a hard decision to go all-in in 1 set. Maybe it's because me and others just weren't used to mechanics yet, I don't know. But I know supports and more sturdy builds fair better.

In my opinion the cm is easier and faster than the other 2 aswell as long as you manage to bring cc. 5min is probably static time. The usual pug needs like 8min.

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My random groupings got problem clearing frac 75, 100 both are spellcaster's. I took a reference build pass by a team mate. Putting in more condi works then power melee strikes. Well I may not have so many AR or ascended to send in a condi fighter toon, but trinket change or weapon change is what I can afford atm. I am looking forward to the next spellcaster fight. But I do notice with this build it helps in underwater and the boss do generally die out sooner. So I guess you need take the efforts to adapt your fights to the various bosses to fight them better. Anyway I still think for Sunqua Peak while the spirit animal speaks, let that stone bridge generate so all 5 players need not just wait for the verbal story to end. At beginning and at the end players shouldn't need to wait for the story and should able to proceed on. Sunqua is already lengthy enough. I seen teams give up outside spellcaster's arena numerous times forgoing rewards. It is fine if is tough. Not fine if tough, long winded, (and buggy). Some players cannot even get pass the water waves without have to do a few attempts, sorrowful indeed ;-\ Could use more ggs to skip certain mechanics and shorten the frac

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