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3/23 PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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If you remove Menders amulet for no reason other than newbies are complaining about it on the forums, then you should also consider removing Berserker and Marauder amulet.

There is no reason to just remove amulets from the game, you should just balance the professions that are over turned. Don’t be lazy and keep on balancing each profession just like you did today.

Removing amulets ruins PvP diversity and any chance of competitive PvP from the community in general.

Please do your job right, don’t remove amulets. Balance the professions that need it, just like how over turned burn DH was, or Revenants in general. Great Job today.

Don’t remove amulets. Modify the stats and don’t be Lazy. For example, removing Celestial amulet when you should have nerfed Khala renegade profession directly was unacceptable.

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@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:1) Thank you for all your hard work. While not all of us agree with some of the decisions your team has made the effort is appreciated especially given Covid times.2) Can there be some targeted buffs next round
coughs in warrior
?3) Can there be some WvW love as well instead of just PvP balances (both nerfs and buffs)?

Assuming they keep the same approach of using stats and gameplay data, consider zerg gameplay primarily...and preferably ignore all the forum drama, first considering that 2/5 of a zerg is firebrand...2/4 is scrappers and 1/4 is scourge/reapers, the first balance efforts should be directed at that...rest can follow

I'm 100% biased considering I main engi, with scrapper and core being my preferred two specializations, but if scrapper is nerfed in WvW then it will be a nearly dead elite spec. Outclassed as a dps and as a support in PvE. Relevant, but still outclassed in PvP (and given how freely nerfs are dished out this is subject to change within a single patch). And stripped of it's role in WvW it'll have no place to shine.

What scrapper needs isn't a nerf. It needs a rework.

I don't believe a small ICD on Purity of Purpose will make scrapper useless...at the very least it won't be spammed to death, I'd rather have a meta where each contributes something to the zerg instead than having an "invicible" wall pushing under heavy fire without any care in the world

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How come you can clearly see in PvP that condi reve is or was a bit op there and there for they got the nerfs needed. Mean while in WvW this is still a problem in small scale fights but for some reason we just need to deal with it in WvW and hoping for each patch that it finally is gonna change the condi shitting reve. I mean there is no counter for that more then cleanse. You can not stop moving because damage keep on ticking anyway and you die if you stand still. And if you don't have 20 cleanses that reve is gonna screw you over with yet more stacks of Torment. In WvW gear matter and the stats that was so op in PvP, we still have them in WvW but no nerfs at all on condi and more so Torment. Why is that and when will this change?

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Gone over a whole year of basically nothing but nerfs mainly increased cool downs and damage reductions to bring game play to a slow boring crawl and the plan going forward is to just keep nerfing. Decap meta is a symptom of overnerfing where nothing else does stuff, so you play player vs point instead of player vs player. Lessons have not been learned, you won't speed the game up again until you start actually letting people use their non auto attack skills with reasonable regularity. Really the game is more spammy than ever because you run out of skills to use so fast then just spam whatever comes off cool down first since there is nothing else to chose from other than autoing. But yeah moar nurfs totally making game more fun. Also just cut to the chase and remove all amulets other than berserker and sinister because defensive stats on gear are totally the root cause of the boring gameplay.

sounds like rev main upset that their skills might have actual cooldowns.Btw, if someone were to ask me whats the cooldown on Phase Traversal I would take a guess 15-20s, the fact that skills like this were getting away with kitten 5s cd is the reason why rev is played by the best and why the best tend to win.

As for the general feedback.Most damage skills lost ~30-33% dmgMost sustain lost ~ 25% output.On top of that CC no longer does damage, so overall damage went down closer to ~35-40% while sustain went down much less, instead off removing healing amulets, just nerf the actual passive sustain, its not just supports that heal too much. Everyone does, I as a berk amulet roamer shouldnt be able to heal close to 300k SELF HEALING in a match. Just my thoughts.

If you're healing for 300K with a berseker amulet during a match, it means ..nobody targeting you and the match being played will most likely end 500 to 100 for your side.

Did I sign up for a MMO or Call of Duty Fantasy warfare?...I don't know what you guys want at this point....one button=kill? headshot and killstrike?

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

To that end, we’re looking at removing Mender and Marshal amulets

No no no, stop deleting amulets from pvp. Were mender or marshal an issue before the big February path last year? No they weren't, so then why are they an issue now? Because some genius thought it a good idea to blanket nerf damage across all the classes in the same way, leaving entire weapon sets useless and generally slowing down the game to a crawl (look at warrior hammer).The correct way to mend this situation is to finally do a proper follow through on the feb mega patch and B A L A N C E the game, buff underpreforiming skills, redesign useless traits, slightly buff auto attack damage across the board on the final skill of aa chains, ect...The solution to every balance problem cannot be to lower coefficients and delete amulets, there are memes about deleting all the amulets and fighting in pvp using sticks; you are slowly actually turning this meme in to a prophecy since you are actually pushing the game towards that reality.

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A really detailed patch with some good changes.

Mender scourge is something I have mixt feelings about. Alone it is not the best build but it can be fun even in ranked (where it is hard to play with people randomly moving). But combined with something else that has / gives sustain slows the game down a lot.

ABOUT MENDERWhile some people think that removing mender in favor of pushing healing to allies is a good idea, I also have to remind them that it is 100% the treatment druid got in the past. Traits, weapon, healing values, almost everything got changed in favor of pushing effects to the allies. The end result is incomplete and lacking any support capabilities while having a weak sustain compared to any other actual support build. This change would require a LOT of adjustments and is a hard (even if commendable) goal to reach.Edit : I support the goal of preventing "bulkier support" and will support this change if you commit to it. I am just concerned about the possible loss of support builds once more for a long period of time.

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the moment I see "remove" at this point in time after all the "remove"s you have done so far is the moment I know Anet needs a bigger department to work this out. Lets just say I am glad you are not in charge of the other game modes along with the secret shadow discord meetings.but hey thanks for the communication right? you buffed your communication skills.

now after all the support builds except scrapper have been nerfed could please tell the community what are your expectations of support builds? if you were going to consider removing/replacing menders amulet then why double nerf the skills of support builds? should a support class not exist in pvp? are you not concerned that the build diversity in pvp has gone downhill so much since feb patch? or is this something you are hoping to address once the new expansion is out? since you have started to communicate perhaps it is time to address this; one of the most obvious shortcomings of the feb patch that hit game-wide.

well good luck to you whatever you plan to develop.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:1) Thank you for all your hard work. While not all of us agree with some of the decisions your team has made the effort is appreciated especially given Covid times.2) Can there be some targeted buffs next round
coughs in warrior
?3) Can there be some WvW love as well instead of just PvP balances (both nerfs and buffs)?

Assuming they keep the same approach of using stats and gameplay data, consider zerg gameplay primarily...and preferably ignore all the forum drama, first considering that 2/5 of a zerg is firebrand...2/4 is scrappers and 1/4 is scourge/reapers, the first balance efforts should be directed at that...rest can follow

I'm 100% biased considering I main engi, with scrapper and core being my preferred two specializations, but if scrapper is nerfed in WvW then it will be a nearly dead elite spec. Outclassed as a dps and as a support in PvE. Relevant, but still outclassed in PvP (and given how freely nerfs are dished out this is subject to change within a single patch). And stripped of it's role in WvW it'll have no place to shine.

What scrapper needs isn't a nerf. It needs a rework.

I don't believe a small ICD on Purity of Purpose will make scrapper useless...at the very least it won't be spammed to death, I'd rather have a meta where each contributes something to the zerg instead than having an "invicible" wall pushing under heavy fire without any care in the world

Initially, what scrapper brought to the table that let it stand out from other supports (namely firebrand) was superspeed and cleansing and stealth. Anet heavily nerfed their superspeed by reworking it to proc on heal rather than on blast/leap finishers. (My least favorite scrapper change to this day). The stealth also got toned down, but its' at least still useful thanks to guards helping blast the field with staff 2. Now scrapper's niche is it's ability to convert it's cleansing into boons. I should note that this is the core of scrapper's group utility, and it's largest remaining niche. Granted, it's an incredibly useful niche, but outside of it, it's an incredibly selfish elite specialization by nature. A "small" nerf to this would have much larger ramifications than what one might assume on paper.

WIth it's boon access stripped, what's stopping someone from simply replacing them with a heal tempest? What else does scrapper bring to the table outside of Purity of Purpose outside of being a Stealth Gyro bot?

I can understand wanting to bring scrapper in line, but doing so in WvW will be bringing it even further out of line in the game as a whole. It will be left to rot in mediocrity as it has everywhere else, and given Anet's track record with Scrapper, I don't have faith that they will give it any love when it starts underperforming gamewide.

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@snoow.1694 said:A power Guard buff in the future would be nice. Burn DH only came to be because power damage on Guardian is extremely low since the Writ of Persistence nerf and hard to land with low mobility.

Adding the Sigil of Fire effect to our F1 Virtue of Justice in form of a new trait or removing the immob on True Shot would work wonders in order to make power Guard a little more viable, because as it stands right now most of our weapon skills are nerfed symbols, support skills, control skills or autoattacks, with little to no burst option left without running full glass canon.Glad to see Burn DH nerfed though, well done and thank you!

I agree with this post. Regardless of how problematic DH Burn was, this update leaves us guardian players without a proper offensive build to play with.

But when it comes to this poster's suggestion to add power damage to F1, I'd argue that it should happen not as a trait, but as a baseline effect for the entire profession instead. It's always a bit odd - and unsatisfying - that guardian's offensive profession mechanic is kind of meaningless/ underwhelming to power builds. F1 applying burning only (passively or actively) seems, to me, like an outdated design choice from 2012 as a reference to GW1's Paragon hybrid damage concept, except it kind of doesn't works very well in GW2 due to how the attribute system works - it's either too strong (burn builds rely mostly on the passive procs as their main source of condition damage), or too subtle and obscure (power builds don't care about that except to fuel their traits that grant +damage/ critical against burning foes). Giving a Sigil of Air/ Fire kind of effect to Guardian's F1 would make that profession mechanic far more satisfying to a wider variety of builds across all game modes, while also contributing to bring power guardians back to pvp.

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The charged mists change should be reverted immediately as it is the absolute worst possible change to nerf Renegade that you could have made and completely fails to account for what actually makes the overperforming specs right now good. it's a terrible change for the following reasons:

  1. Many Revs don't even use it, and actually use Song of the mists due to the fact that it's actually stronger for what Shiro does. The quickness gain is a massive DPS increase. So the build you are trying to target with this nerf doesn't even get nerfed by it. Song is already considered meta for every Herald build on metabattle atm.
  2. As more Renegade players switch to Song and get used to it, and realize that it's actually stronger, you will see people getting instantly deleted by the quickness combos it provides, making the meta possibly worse. As for Herald, Shiro/Glint pretty much always uses Song anyways as CM is a completely useless trait for Herald. Same applies to Mallyx/Glint, no Condi Herald runs CM it's useless.
  3. What you are actually doing is hurting literally every other possible Revenant off-meta build, such as core Rev and the like, that need the extra energy to work and are not overperforming in any way. Good job killing build diversity for absolutely no reason

TL;DR you legit just nerfed every Revenant spec in the game EXCEPT THE ONES THAT ARE ACTUALLY OP. You will soon be reading all the new threads of people complaining about getting oneshot by Rev shortbow 5+3+4+2 combo due to being able to cast all four skills before the CC ends with quickness from Song, and is actually going to make Rev less fun to play against as quickness-spam builds are notoriously uninteractive. The complaint threads will posted in the coming weeks. Guaranteed.

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@Kuma.1503 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:1) Thank you for all your hard work. While not all of us agree with some of the decisions your team has made the effort is appreciated especially given Covid times.2) Can there be some targeted buffs next round
coughs in warrior
?3) Can there be some WvW love as well instead of just PvP balances (both nerfs and buffs)?

Assuming they keep the same approach of using stats and gameplay data, consider zerg gameplay primarily...and preferably ignore all the forum drama, first considering that 2/5 of a zerg is firebrand...2/4 is scrappers and 1/4 is scourge/reapers, the first balance efforts should be directed at that...rest can follow

I'm 100% biased considering I main engi, with scrapper and core being my preferred two specializations, but if scrapper is nerfed in WvW then it will be a nearly dead elite spec. Outclassed as a dps and as a support in PvE. Relevant, but still outclassed in PvP (and given how freely nerfs are dished out this is subject to change within a single patch). And stripped of it's role in WvW it'll have no place to shine.

What scrapper needs isn't a nerf. It needs a rework.

I don't believe a small ICD on Purity of Purpose will make scrapper useless...at the very least it won't be spammed to death, I'd rather have a meta where each contributes something to the zerg instead than having an "invicible" wall pushing under heavy fire without any care in the world

Initially, what scrapper brought to the table that let it stand out from other supports (namely firebrand) was superspeed and cleansing and stealth. Anet heavily nerfed their superspeed by reworking it to proc on heal rather than on blast/leap finishers. (My least favorite scrapper change to this day). The stealth also got toned down, but its' at least still useful thanks to guards helping blast the field with staff 2. Now scrapper's niche is it's ability to convert it's cleansing into boons. I should note that this is the core of scrapper's group utility, and it's largest remaining niche. Granted, it's an incredibly useful niche, but outside of it, it's an incredibly selfish elite specialization by nature. A "small" nerf to this would have
much
larger ramifications than what one might assume on paper.

WIth it's boon access stripped, what's stopping someone from simply replacing them with a heal tempest? What else does scrapper bring to the table outside of Purity of Purpose outside of being a Stealth Gyro bot?

I can understand wanting to bring scrapper in line, but doing so in WvW will be bringing it even further
out of line
in the game as a whole. It will be left to rot in mediocrity as it has everywhere else, and given Anet's track record with Scrapper, I don't have faith that they will give it any love when it starts underperforming gamewide.

That just speaks to the need of a rework of Scrapper then no? Specifically the interaction of Alchemy with Purge Gyro. I'm personally of the belief that no further nerfs (or amulet removals) are needed. What is needed now is to start tweaking parts of the classes back up.

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Surprising that downstate and ressing seem to be completely ignored when it comes to balance. When watching high lvl tournament matches it often seems like winning or losing fights is more about reviving or finishing downed players instead of the fighting between "alive" players (which isn't surprising considering downstate and related mechanics are pretty much the only things that did not get nerfed yet).The amount of rez power is also one of the main reasons for the overall slow gameplay, as sometimes only a small fraction of downs actually result in kills and even if a players ends up getting finished off, the "winning" side sometimes had to invest so much into that one kill, that they are not in a position to push their advantage effectively until the dead player respawns. This seems to be especially true for low sustain comps.Ressing tends to get punished much less often and now the builds that were best at punishing an (over)commitment - burn guards - got nerfed very hard.

So maybe reevaluating downstate and revival should be considered before removing even more amulets and other build options.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

Did I sign up for a MMO or Call of Duty Fantasy warfare?...I don't know what you guys want at this point....one button=kill? headshot and killstrike?

There is a large time-to-kill range between what we have now and one-shots. I can't speak for everyone, but I just want them to meet in the middle between what we have now and what we had prior to the February 25th 2020 patch. I'd like certain specs that have been nerfed into complete obscurity to be made whole again.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Power Herald

  • Infuse Light: Reduced duration of damage inversion effect from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.Infuse Light is another case that we’re evaluating for a functional change, but in the meantime, we’re taking the opportunity to slightly reduce the duration as another shave to their defensive capabilities.

Please DO NOT rework Infuse Light. 2s is fine for PvP and really solves the issue the skill had in potentially providing too much sustain. It's absolutely fine in PvE and WvW. Revenant doesn't have access to any sort of "invulnerability type skill" besides it, while almost every other profession has access to either full Invuln or something similar (i.e. Defiant Stance on Warrior, Dagger Storm on thief). If you rework Infuse Light then Revenant loses its only "partial invuln" (I say partial because it can still be loaded with condis or be CC'd)

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Gone over a whole year of basically nothing but nerfs mainly increased cool downs and damage reductions to bring game play to a slow boring crawl and the plan going forward is to just keep nerfing. Decap meta is a symptom of overnerfing where nothing else does stuff, so you play player vs point instead of player vs player. Lessons have not been learned, you won't speed the game up again until you start actually letting people use their non auto attack skills with reasonable regularity. Really the game is more spammy than ever because you run out of skills to use so fast then just spam whatever comes off cool down first since there is nothing else to chose from other than autoing. But yeah moar nurfs totally making game more fun. Also just cut to the chase and remove all amulets other than berserker and sinister because defensive stats on gear are totally the root cause of the boring gameplay.

^^Absolutely 100% this. The never ending nerfs are extremely boring and has lead to this stale gameplay. It might have been fine if it didn't take 1 year to get to where we are, but honestly I'm never excited for balance patch notes anymore since I know they're just going to eviscerate whatever is flavor of the month instead of give meaningful updates or reworks to underperforming elements

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Gone over a whole year of basically nothing but nerfs mainly increased cool downs and damage reductions to bring game play to a slow boring crawl and the plan going forward is to just keep nerfing. Decap meta is a symptom of overnerfing where nothing else does stuff, so you play player vs point instead of player vs player. Lessons have not been learned, you won't speed the game up again until you start actually letting people use their non auto attack skills with reasonable regularity. Really the game is more spammy than ever because you run out of skills to use so fast then just spam whatever comes off cool down first since there is nothing else to chose from other than autoing. But yeah moar nurfs totally making game more fun. Also just cut to the chase and remove all amulets other than berserker and sinister because defensive stats on gear are totally the root cause of the boring gameplay.

Btw, if someone were to ask me whats the cooldown on Phase Traversal I would take a guess 15-20s, the fact that skills like this were getting away with kitten 5s cd is the reason why rev is played by the best and why the best tend to win.

Yes, let's ignore the fact it has a 35 energy cost associated with it as well (which is massive btw, in case you don't play Rev), which is actually the reason you were under the impression it had a "15-20s CD" on it, because it's not spammable every 5s without only resorting to Autoattacks.

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