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3/23 PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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Another tweaking patch within weeks??? ((surprised pikachu face))I mean, actual mechanics changes would be nice but i am well aware that those things take more time to implement and to test (not to mention incoming xpac) so i am thankful for such unusually frequent updates.For once things are addressed that actually did need to be looked at given current state of the game. And i am positively surprised that the bot build is also on the agenda.Overall thank you.

@Clownmug.8357 said:lol at 12 second CD on Phase Traversal. Thief players that complained about Infiltrator's Arrow please take note, this is what real suffering looks like.

You can come back when Phase Traversal drains your entire energy, grants no boons, fails due to no valid path bug, has less range and deals no damage.

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@HeadCrowned.6834 said:Problem with support specs in GW2 could be that they do too much at the same time. Healing, boons, damage mitigation (projectile blocks and stuff), condi cleanse and rezzes.This is not problem. This is feature of support in good mmo game. 1 support should have more bigger value that one, or two dps class I am sure.

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@Avatar.3568 said:

@felix.2386 said:yes, remove menders, shouldnt be able to do damage as support, literally kills roles in the pvp, people qq are the ones who cant play anything other then braindead builds thats carried by mender

The problem is though, that the alernatives that remain are Avatar's and Sage's. Meaning supports will do more damage and less healing. Meaning they won't be supports, they will be bruisers at that point. I fail to see how pushing supports towards bruiser amulets will restore roles in PvP my dude.

Avatar does not do more dmg, it's the same but more consistent

Supports can still support, cleansing stab etc... Is not bound to healing amuletts, but with less healing power bunkers are not gonna be that selfsustainisch and with supports doing more dmg we may have a faster game

Here is the thing though: if I can choose between a subar support or a decent bruiser build, I'm not going to play support. I'm going to play the build thats more value for my team. And a build that can bunker nodes and stall fights, thats way more effective than a support without healing.So people will just drop the idea of playing support and bunker up. I can see the game getting faster already!

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To that end, we’re looking at removing Mender and Marshal amulets

That will really be disappointing. Of course killing build diversity is an easy shortcut to balancing but it is the wrong thing to do.

By not addressing the underlying balancing issue, you will just hide the problem and make the whole balancing between class & specs a big mess where the only option left to address further balance issues will be to delete even more things because trying to balance traits and utilities will require massive resources.

I am even asking myself if you are not already in that situation which is why envisaging to remove further amulets seems to be the natural option explored now.

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Demolisher amulet support builds are coming boys!...no really, mender is barely a support amulet already, after this patch the healing on Pure of Heart goes from 515 (0 healing power) to 666 (mender), on guard you might as well play carrion/demolisher and at least you'll deal damage.On top of that barrier scaling is not nerfed. Tempests and guards barely heal anything, while Scourges give 5k barriers just by standing around, with much lower cds.On previous metas we had cleric and magi amulets with support builds not being a problem and the pace of the game being much faster.If we really want a faster meta, how about starting by making map smallers and reducing kiting spots or fixing autopathing? most shadowsteps don't work if the opponent is on a even just slightly elevated terrain (see the top of the staircase in auric span for example), this is a big problem for many burst builds that need to chase enemies.Also, must we really nerf everything that can't be killed in 1v1 by a berserker/marauder build? there are condi classes that can outpressure bunker builds, maybe those could get tuned a bit so they become viable at high levels?Hoping to be listened, i'll go play Paladin support guard.

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removing amulets .. again , this just speaks of how little efforts u are willing to put in to balance stuff around . balancing is a cat and mouse game where the community constantly find broken builds and the devs remove those builds and make others stronger, this loop is what keeps the game intersting , while i like the balancing u mentione today i genuinly hate how the first thing to do it everytime is to remove a build option that impact the game much more than that individual builds that abused it u dont always have to cut things from the root . removing build options one by one without making other builds strong is just speed running to monotony , u just cant break the meta cycles by removing build options . i understand the hardship of indivualy balancing the traits to a satisfying point but most of the current meta problemes are a direct result of the overdone seperation a year ago where everyone became so much weaker which lead to bunker builds becoming stronger > now the bunker builds are becoming weaker . then there is no genuine reason to specialise in either of them and slowly we are gonna see the entire build pool full of builds that acctualy feel the same

(its already happening ) overly brusty builds all work on this format now : knockdown/cc > dmg > burst but well it is already happening that alot of the builds feel the same

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

To that end, we’re looking at removing Mender and Marshal amulets

STOP removing things and learn HOW TO BALANCE

Also this.

We are reaching ( and if not have already reached ) a point where WvW is in a better state of balance and meta than sPvP is, because sPvP has nerfed and removed so many builds from the game that the counters to certain builds legit no longer exist in sPvP. Also the barrage of CD nerfs tend to hurt balance more than help it, and again many of the random cooldown nerfs to classes thankfully do not make it to WvW.

sPvP seems to be following the mantra of "Less is more". But honestly looking at the meta in WvW and the meta in sPvP in conjunction with the overall state of the game, this is a case where less really is just less and more really is more.

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@"Kanto.2485" said:Demolisher amulet support builds are coming boys!...no really, mender is barely a support amulet already, after this patch the healing on Pure of Heart goes from 515 (0 healing power) to 666 (mender), on guard you might as well play carrion/demolisher and at least you'll deal damage.On top of that barrier scaling is not nerfed. Tempests and guards barely heal anything, while Scourges give 5k barriers just by standing around, with much lower cds.On previous metas we had cleric and magi amulets with support builds not being a problem and the pace of the game being much faster.If we really want a faster meta, how about starting by making map smallers and reducing kiting spots or fixing autopathing? most shadowsteps don't work if the opponent is on a even just slightly elevated terrain (see the top of the staircase in auric span for example), this is a big problem for many burst builds that need to chase enemies.Also, must we really nerf everything that can't be killed in 1v1 by a berserker/marauder build? there are condi classes that can outpressure bunker builds, maybe those could get tuned a bit so they become viable at high levels?Hoping to be listened, i'll go play Paladin support guard.

making maps smaller and "fixing" kiting spots will turn conquest closer to the shit fest that was 3v3.aka 3x support

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:I love the word "slight" being thrown around when talking about nerfs to rev.

5sec CD to 12sec CD.3sec duration to 2sec duration.25e to 10e.

I'd hate to see heavy nerfs :#

Got you covered! here a small glimpse of what heavy nerfs look like:

+
(killed scepter ele FA)
(downgraded staff ele from B to D )
(the removal of stability downgraded the spec from A to C)
+
(killed staff ele)
(killed guardian sustain as bruiser )
(killed warrior sustain for most part)

These are example of nerfs I don't agree with 'cause rather than fixing anything..they simply deleted entire specs from the game, forcing people away from weapon sets and utilities now deemed pointless to even add on the skillbar, believe me when I say that most of you have no idea what a heavy nerf looks like...lucky you

Well I used to play hammer rev so I have an idea :s

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Lucentfir.7430" said:This is what this community wanted, you all made your bed, now lay in it, and keep on with the amulet removal Anet, great job :+1: look into runes and sigils next, and maybe even weapons. This is why I said time and time again that the February patch was badly executed. They never go in-depth for class balancing to fix the root of the problem. They take the lazy route out. People whine about WvW being a unbalanced mess, well that's basically unfiltered GW2 PvP.

ah we've got a regular nostradamus here. good for you bud. no one wanted things to turn out this way, how about you get off your high horse cuz you're not fooling anyone.

For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

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Thanks for "balancing" the game mode.

Nothing is more fun that autoattacking for 5 damage each while waiting for your skills to come off cooldown. But yes, bunkers are a problem, so let's remove more tanky amulets so the autoattacks do 6 damage instead. But if something does 10 damage, nerf it to 2.

Great balancing philosophy.

This game is a snoozefest. Everything we were promised with the last February patch has not come to fruition. We were better off if that patch hadn't existed, given how boring PvP has been ever since.

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@"JuanAtreyu.9043" said:Thanks for "balancing" the game mode.

Nothing is more fun that autoattacking for 5 damage each while waiting for your skills to come off cooldown. But yes, bunkers are a problem, so let's remove more tanky amulets so the autoattacks do 6 damage instead. But if something does 10 damage, nerf it to 2.

Great balancing philosophy.

This game is a snoozefest. Everything we were promised with the last February patch has not come to fruition. We were better off if that patch hadn't existed, given how boring PvP has been ever since.

Agreed. I thought the whole point of the February balance patch was to have a clean slate from which they can slowly bring power levels back up where appropriate. It's been over a year now and every balance patch since has been nerfs. It shouldn't be taking this long. I guess they are busy balancing the upcoming expansion elite specs?

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@"Justine.6351" said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs. no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. making a bunch of bad and flat out weird changes that somehow shifts the meta, now thats what to expect. what a tired monologue lol. see told you so! but nah you had no idea what was going to happen just like the rest of us. people that do that are so lame and easy to dismiss. besides how the hell are you going to blame people that wanted to lower damage when they don't work at anet? i didn't even make no bed. just looking for a scapegoat. anyway i'm not complaining about the balance, there are some wonky outliers like usual, and yes damage is a little low but the fix is easy. people either bitch and moan or they adapt, or leave lol. doesn't matter in the end, this game was released half finished and it'll die half finished.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs.
no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year.

:/Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

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@Justine.6351 said:

@Justine.6351 said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs.
no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year.

:/Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

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Thank you for the balance patch.

I also want to suggest something.

"Bleeding" a player shouldn't be a viable strategy because it is boring to watch and it is boring to be downed just to watch even more during the Respawn.Downstate should be a brief second chance to rally and an opportunity for great Teamplay efforts or support plays and winning teams should have a reason to finish someone and if they chose not to do it, defeats should happen faster. Therefore I think Downstate HP Pool or "rezz%" per Tick given by another player should be looked into. The window for "rezz/rally" Gameplay should be shorter making "Rezz Skill" Gameplay more valuable and great moments to pull off. (The ability to heal yourself while downed could be limited(ammo system) in competitive modes(?)) But maybe that creates new problems i haven't thought about. Outside of AT or mAT's cooperation is low in Ranked matches in low ranks and cleaving a target all by yourself feels very tough currently if somebody rezzes them at the same time.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Justine.6351 said:For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

nah bs.
no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year.

:/Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

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I do wonder if it is really the amulets. I just started skipping after awhile, so sorry if someone already mentioned this, but something I noticed about the February patch is that it affected all of the healing skills differently. While damage was dropped by 1/3rd, the heals... weren't. There were some reductions, but mostly what was changed is the scaling from healing power. I.E. looking at ele:

Regeneration: no changeHealing Mist: 800 (1.0) to 800 (0.5)Healing Ripple: 1,302 (1.0) to 1,042 (0.75)Cleansing Wave: 1,558 (1.0) to 1,302 (0.6)Glyph of Elemental Harmony: 6,494 (1.2) to 6,494 (1.0)Ether Renewal: No changeSignet of Restoration: No change on active. 202 (.1) to 171 (.07)Cone of Cold: No changeOverload Water: 392 (.2) to 392 (.1)

And so on. The only skills that are proportionally nerfed (or overnerfed) in comparison to damage are those that are Weaver specific. This is just a microcosm of what holds true for each of the professions: the scaling was hit more than the base heals. Since heals effectively act as negative damage, the absence of proportional cuts in base healing means that overall damage output was actually reduced by more than a third. This compounds further with group heals and healing effects.

Getting rid of all of the healing amulets only affects heal scaling. Now, I'm sure there's some FotM build out there that has good scaling, but as you reduce the amulets and the scaling of specific skills, you're just shifting the heal role to skills that still heal in an AoE, but have higher base heals instead.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I do wonder if it is really the amulets. I just started skipping after awhile, so sorry if someone already mentioned this, but something I noticed about the February patch is that it affected all of the healing skills differently. While damage was dropped by 1/3rd, the heals... weren't. There were some reductions, but mostly what was changed is the scaling from healing power. I.E. looking at ele:

Regeneration: no changeHealing Mist: 800 (1.0) to 800 (0.5)Healing Ripple: 1,302 (1.0) to 1,042 (0.75)Cleansing Wave: 1,558 (1.0) to 1,302 (0.6)Glyph of Elemental Harmony: 6,494 (1.2) to 6,494 (1.0)Ether Renewal: No changeSignet of Restoration: No change on active. 202 (.1) to 171 (.07)Cone of Cold: No changeOverload Water: 392 (.2) to 392 (.1)

And so on. The only skills that are proportionally nerfed (or overnerfed) in comparison to damage are those that are Weaver specific. This is just a microcosm of what holds true for each of the professions: the scaling was hit more than the base heals. Since heals effectively act as negative damage, the absence of proportional cuts in base healing means that overall damage output was actually reduced by more than a third. This compounds further with group heals and healing effects.

Getting rid of all of the healing amulets only affects heal scaling. Now, I'm sure there's some FotM build out there that has good scaling, but as you reduce the amulets and the scaling of specific skills, you're just shifting the heal role to skills that still heal in an AoE, but have higher base heals instead.

You might be onto something here. The question is of course how can one make support/bunker killable without making them completely unviable. Maybe look at pressure they still manage to put out (cough scourge) and touch healing sources a bit.

@all bunkers: don't kill me but you can't possibly enjoy 2 bunker guards +2 support scourge vs 2 bunker guards + 2support sourges all season O_O (yes, i had such matches).

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