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A necessary improvement in preparation for the Legendary Armory


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It occurred to me that as it stands for legendaries, outside of legendary weapons, there's a lot of requiring people to invest very hard into particular game types for the given legendary. Raids require collections and materials, the Skirmish ticket grinds are no joke (and the irony of hitting rank 10000 in WvW is that perhaps the skirmish tickets have almost no practical purpose after that point, you'd have enough for everything from that game mode).

This is a HUGE problem. Lots of people don't enjoy ranked PVP, they're not going to want to do that or tournaments for the neck, lots of people don't raid. In contrast, lots of people feel very "done" with these game modes once they're making the legendaries because There's no reason to go back.

I think that the devs should implement systems to make items for achievements and materials for legendaries between game modes acquireable by trade in some way, either drops that can be traded and turned in at the vendor, or perhaps allow people to sell components directly. This will allow people to do what they enjoy the most but still progress their character in that direction if they so desire. It'll spur tons of economic activity and it can kill the "doneness" feeling once you earn the legendaries from the game modes you enjoy, now you can keep enjoying them and earn extra cash by helping other people in their journey for full Legendary armory sets. Also, if you just want to play the OW and earn money that way, it becomes a doable strategy as well. It lets players decide how they want to play and still progress their accounts. Just an idea.

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There will be too many people bringing up the argument of "pay to win." If you have enough real world cash, you can buy your way to a legendary set of armor, bypassing much of the time and grind that a legendary is famous for. But, I do agree that selling excess mats (no matter the rarity) to a vendor is much different than selling to players. There's stuff I hoard now because I MIGHT make another legendary, but don't like what's available right now.

Before you try to talk about trading mats from one version of armor to another, you need to be very specific on the items which are equal across the board for crafting legendary armor. For instance, some may come easier than others (be of lower value) at the same you could trade 2, 3, 5, or even 10:1 for an item which is super-rare and much higher value.

For now, I've stuck to ascended armor and legendary weapons. (Until I learn raid combat rotations well enough to join a group and pull my own weight)

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Yes and no...

The acquisiton of specific currency needs to be rebalanced per game mode. As it is, PvP and WvW currency are a massive grind compared to raid armor, for a worse reward (no animated skin). More so because, most people don't have the time required to max out weekly gains (and it IS a bit too much to get to diamond), so it will take ate least 5x more time to get compared to even the longest raid acquisition because raid currency doesn't depend on your rank, only how many bosses you killed that week. There's a massive difference there that needs to be addressed. Luckily, there's some really good threads in each respective section with suggestions that would fix that without becoming too lenient. If only Anet would listen.

But no, i don't see them changing anything because they're there to make people interested in those game modes.IF you want a specific armor, you do that mode. If you only play open world, well, you don't really need a legendary do you? Exotic is fine, there's nothing in overworld that requires balanced stats and infusions...

I can see them maybe adding open world legendary armor, but it will probably be even less visually impressive than WvW/PvP ones while taking even more time...

But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is that - if you want a fully legendary character you have to play all modes - i don't see them adding the armor other than where it already is. Each mode has its own legendaries, and if you want them all, you'll play them all. They just need to fix the imbalance a bit, that's all.

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@WindBlade.8749 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is thatI think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

Oh, indeed i did forget those! :sweat_smile:Yeah, i mean, it's not like open world doesn't have legendaries, there's really no need for armor there too.

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@WindBlade.8749 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is thatI think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

1) I don't think it's good game design to force people to play game modes they don't like, making the special ones tradeable essentially gives the different types of players economic leverage to trade with each other. With the announcement of LA, I feel like the impetus will be higher to earn them and this design decision will not pay off in that context. Eventually players wake up and quit when they realize they're not having fun, not matter the size of the carrot they're supposed to chase.

2) I think this could only serve to revitalize the raid community in NA, if only to bring experienced raiders back to play with each other. community pings are failing far more often at organizing on NA raid academy. I'm not sure how the elites are doing, but I bet they're bleeding every now and then due to attrition. LA gives a definite end point to where raids are still useful as far as progression goes. People who don't want to bother with raids can get a legendary for every slot through another means as slumbering conflux and conflux aren't exclusive to each other. I would see raid legendaries being the most valuable just because of how few people do them.

3) Also, I feel like the extra pips in WvW for 10k rank are pointless. by that point you'd be able to buy anything you want as far as the skirmish ticket legendary precursors are concerned. This basically gives you payback for being this far.

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I think that's kind of the point especially when it comes to the Trinkets, they want to force players into different game modes.I completely agree with the WvW tickets, WvW in general has very low and slow rewarding system since it's based of time in the game mode over anything else. I wish they'd rework the rewards on both tracks to be progressed by capping/defending too but with the updates wvw gets I don't think a change that big will happen anytime soon.

I'd like at the very least that items like armor required the same amount of time. On you're first PvE Raid Armor you can make one legendary Armor piece every week. In WvW one piece of armor will take you 4-5 weeks of keeping participation up for hours every day.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is thatI think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

1) I don't think it's good game design to force people to play game modes they don't likeAt no point in this game is any player ever forced to acquire or use a legendary item.The stats are identical to ascended for this very reason.Legendary items are strictly cosmetic/QoL.Paintiing a player as being "forced" to get one is one of the most disingenuous arguments made by the low-effort players on this forum.

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@WindBlade.8749 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is thatI think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.Really.... how are you getting your Gift of Battle in Open World?What about all the fractals?
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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:But... It's not like open world doesn't have its own legendaries (Vision, Aurora), so since the point is thatI think you also forgot the 37 openworld legendary weapons :) ? there is none in pvp/wvw/raids/fractals

If you're talking weapons, that's not 100% accurate: I think you could only claim that Gen1 are actually "open world" Gen 2 require stabilized dark energy balls, which require matrices from fractals (in the very least). Also, the first 4 Gen2 legendaries also require particular fractals.

Maybe 2.5 gen are not openworld but 2.0gen are 100% openworld, they are composed like gen1 of 3-4 long collection with only openworld stuffs in it.Really.... how are you getting your Gift of Battle in Open World?What about all the fractals?

forgot about them since i always have ton of fractals shit and wvw shits, but yea it's true not 100%, like 90-95%, i think it's still make them openworld when the collection part the craft part and make only 5-10% of the whole thing.

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@"Firebeard.1746" said:

This is a HUGE problem. Lots of people don't enjoy ranked PVP, they're not going to want to do that or tournaments for the neck, lots of people don't raid. In contrast, lots of people feel very "done" with these game modes once they're making the legendaries because There's no reason to go back.

First you complain that there is a reason to play these game modes, then you complain that after that there is no resaon to play these game modes.Nice.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.

1) I don't think it's good game design to force people to play game modes they don't like, making the special ones tradeable essentially gives the different types of players economic leverage to trade with each other. With the announcement of LA, I feel like the impetus will be higher to earn them and this design decision will not pay off in that context. Eventually players wake up and quit when they realize they're not having fun, not matter the size of the carrot they're supposed to chase.

They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.

This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”. It’s simply due to specific rewards being tied to specific content which some people don’t want to do so they make a stink about it.

2) I think this could only serve to revitalize the raid community in NA, if only to bring experienced raiders back to play with each other. community pings are failing far more often at organizing on NA raid academy. I'm not sure how the elites are doing, but I bet they're bleeding every now and then due to attrition. LA gives a definite end point to where raids are still useful as far as progression goes. People who don't want to bother with raids can get a legendary for every slot through another means as slumbering conflux and conflux aren't exclusive to each other. I would see raid legendaries being the most valuable just because of how few people do them.

Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.There should be more alternatives, though. Driving players too hard only drives them
away
.

How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

Most things in this game - things that keep players playing it are like that. In fact, this game goes out of your way to give you all you need to play it very fast. It then keeps people in the game with basically only "optional" content. The key is - it may be technically optional, but the devs generally don't want tooo many players to decide to opt out of them. Or to opt out of too many of those.

That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.And this is bad approach. There's absolutely no reason for devs to push players towards specific content. It should be perfectly fine to give players enough reasons to keep playing in whatever content the players desire.

A player that goes for the stuff they want in the content they like is far better for devs than a player that goes for the stuff they want in a content they hate and as a result burns out and reduces their overall interest in the game. Not to mention players that go into content they dislike only for stuff that is there (and get out of that content as soon as they get what they wanted) may cause devs to heavily misread the situation and content popularity. They may think a content is popular, and make more of it, only to realize later that it was all rewards, and their effort got wasted.

Basically, as long as the player keeps playing, it's better if they are doing it in the content they like.

This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”.No? I see those all the time, practically since game launched. They keep returning very regularly.

Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.Sure. But then, if a certain content popularity is mainly driven by some unique reward in it, do we really need a content like that in the first place?

How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.If a reward requires too heavy grind in a certain content a player dislikes, it results in one of two things - either player decides to give up on the reward, or doesn;t give up, and gets burned out. Neither is actually beneficial for the game. Not even players that do like that content benefit from it, because players that are in it for the rewards only are far more likely to play ina way that might cause conflict with the normal players of that mode (see stuff like afk farming in pvp, or people trying to get into raid groups to get carried)

Also, "but it's optional" is not an argument in a game where practically everything players do is due to optional content.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

Most things in this game - things that
keep players playing it
are like that. In fact, this game goes out of your way to give you all you need to play it very fast. It then keeps people in the game with basically
only
"optional" content. The key is - it may be technically optional, but the devs generally don't want tooo many players to decide to opt
out
of them. Or to opt out of too many of those.

That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.And this is bad approach. There's absolutely no reason for devs to push players towards
specific
content. It should be perfectly fine to give players enough reasons to keep playing
in whatever content the players desire
.

A player that goes for the stuff they want in the content they like is far better for devs than a player that goes for the stuff they want in a content they hate and as a result burns out and reduces their overall interest in the game. Not to mention players that go into content they dislike only for stuff that is there (and get out of that content as soon as they get what they wanted) may cause devs to heavily misread the situation and content popularity. They may think a content is popular, and make more of it, only to realize later that it was all rewards, and their effort got wasted.

Basically, as long as the player keeps playing, it's better if they are doing it in the content they like.

So someone playing only dungeons should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only fractals should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only adventures/activities/beetle races should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone doing the core Tyria world boss train should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? I can go on and on with this.

Bad approach, why? Rewards tied to specific content are there to drive players towards that content. This keeps the content more active for a longer period of time as well as get people to go and try different things. Players have plenty of reasons to play the content that they desire. This does not mean that all rewards should be made available for whatever that content may be.

I highly suggest that you sit back and think about how the game would be if every single reward were made available to every player for whatever content they enjoy.

This has been in the game since launch and yet you don’t get content claims of those rewards being “bad design”.No? I see those all the time, practically since game launched. They keep returning very regularly.

You see those only about specific rewards, not all rewards. Namely, you see this mostly about legendaries.

Taking a reward tied to a game mode, reward that was a primary driver for a lot of people to play it, and make it available outside would do the opposite of what you’re claiming.Sure. But then, if a certain content popularity is mainly driven by some unique reward in it, do we really need a content like that in the first place?

You do realize that you could say that about almost every area of the game, right? Imagine if all Living Story rewards were made available outside of the Living Story episodes including masteries, mastery points, and achievement points. How many would still do the living story? Would it be enough to justify having that content in the game? If those episodes did remain, how long do you think it would be before they were abandoned?

Having certain rewards tied to certain types of things has been a thing in games for a very long time.

How’s it driving them “too hard”? They’re optional rewards.If a reward requires too heavy grind in a certain content a player dislikes, it results in one of two things - either player decides to give up on the reward, or doesn;t give up, and gets burned out. Neither is actually beneficial for the game. Not even players that do like that content benefit from it, because players that are in it for the rewards only are far more likely to play ina way that might cause conflict with the normal players of that mode (see stuff like afk farming in pvp, or people trying to get into raid groups to get carried)

Also, "but it's optional" is not an argument in a game where practically
everything
players do is due to optional content.

It's only a heavy grind if the player rushes it because they are impatient. This can be be said for grind anywhere including content which players may enjoy. Of the players who enjoy SAB, how many do you think enjoying grinding it for the rewards? What kind of impact do you think that grinding has on them towards their feelings about SAB? If you do anything excessively, you're going to speed up the time it takes before you're sick of it.

Something being optional is still very much a valid argument even when everything in the game is optional. Other content being optional too doesn't change that.

If you disagree then by all means provide the logic behind how optional is not a valid argument when everything else in the game is option as well.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:They’re not forced in the sense that it’s not something they actually need to play the game nor any of the content.

Most things in this game - things that
keep players playing it
are like that. In fact, this game goes out of your way to give you all you need to play it very fast. It then keeps people in the game with basically
only
"optional" content. The key is - it may be technically optional, but the devs generally don't want tooo many players to decide to opt
out
of them. Or to opt out of too many of those.

That said, this game has numerous instances of specific rewards tied to specific content. It gives players a reason to do that content who may not necessarily do it otherwise.And this is bad approach. There's absolutely no reason for devs to push players towards
specific
content. It should be perfectly fine to give players enough reasons to keep playing
in whatever content the players desire
.

A player that goes for the stuff they want in the content they like is far better for devs than a player that goes for the stuff they want in a content they hate and as a result burns out and reduces their overall interest in the game. Not to mention players that go into content they dislike only for stuff that is there (and get out of that content as soon as they get what they wanted) may cause devs to heavily misread the situation and content popularity. They may think a content is popular, and make more of it, only to realize later that it was all rewards, and their effort got wasted.

Basically, as long as the player keeps playing, it's better if they are doing it in the content they like.

So someone playing only dungeons should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only fractals should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone playing only adventures/activities/beetle races should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? So someone doing the core Tyria world boss train should be able to obtain every single reward in the game from that? I can go on and on with this.

"My main activity is trolling in PvP and talking trash in DR, I should get all the rewards in game for doing only this. pLaY hOw YoU wAnT tHeY sAiD....."

I love when these threads pop up.

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I prefer that the best items in a game are tied to the harder content. It is a game after all where some competition is expected and skill should be rewarded. Not saying this is consistent for gw2, far from it, but let's not remove the cases where that is so.

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