The Solution to WvW? DAoC should be your guide.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

Honestly, take advice from WoW or ESO.

Free Action Potions in WoW or Unstoppable potions in ESO.Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

Boom, there's your zerg busting force. A small group can pop potions to ignore CC and CC the hell out of the enemy zerg that likely won't pop said potions due to their cost.

Also I have to say your description of ESO was a bit inaccurate. Small groups can kill blobs quite readily if they're organized. Trick is to run Sorc Dk and bomb the hell out of them while popping potions. See guilds do it all the time.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

worst idea ever lol. anet is rubbing their hands together tho mark my words.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Zerg is what make gamemode fun.

If they make larg CC powerful, what we gonna see is a mindless blob of CCs(hammer train comeback), not "small groups of smartest guys defeating mindless blobs made of dumbest guys", this narrative is a mith.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/wvw-design-is-all-hammer-trains

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

worst idea ever lol. anet is rubbing their hands together tho mark my words.

It was 50% trolling 50% serious anyway. Tbh it's not as bad as it looks on paper.But there's no way the GW2 community would be happy with that.

But it is a genuine balance mechanic. If you had to decide between spending a gold to ignore CC's for 10 seconds, or risk being CC'd into oblivion. Smaller organized groups would choose the former. Casual zergs would choose the latter.

You'd still keep stun breaks and cleanses in the game. You'd just make it so fights actually cost something other than time.

[HappyHubris.1096]

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@"HappyHubris.1096" said:I don't know much about the engine scaling challenges in GW2, but some (WvW-only) ideas:

• Boon decay that increases with the number of players in close proximity. For example, your boons have -20% boon duration with 10 people near your character, -60% duration with 20 people, -80% with 30 people, etc. If this is too difficult to balance it could be constrained to key boons like stability.
• Skills that increase their damage based on number of proximate players. Imagine if something like meteor shower hit 1,000% harder on enemies (for the current target cap) when more than 15 enemies are in its radius. Or a single-target burst that becomes a one-shot-kill when a player is near too many allies.

Basically, disincentivizing huge stacking while preserving large-scale conflict.

More like disincentivizing people from playing.

Keep in mind you should think about changes in regards to pve and whether or not it would be viable changes, because it's the base part of the game. I highly doubt they would put in boon duration decay based on the amount of players around. -20% will already affect raid groups.

You literally ignored "WvW-only" in my post

[Dawdler.8521]

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Honestly, take advice from WoW or ESO.

Free Action Potions in WoW or Unstoppable potions in ESO.Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

Boom, there's your zerg busting force. A small group can pop potions to ignore CC and CC the hell out of the enemy zerg that likely won't pop said potions due to their cost.

Also I have to say your description of ESO was a bit inaccurate. Small groups can kill blobs quite readily if they're organized. Trick is to run Sorc Dk and bomb the hell out of them while popping potions. See guilds do it all the time.Why not make it potions you can only buy for gems in the black lion shop instead?

Might as well go all the way, yes?

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Honestly, take advice from WoW or ESO.

Free Action Potions in WoW or Unstoppable potions in ESO.Make ignoring CC something you have to pay gold for, get rid of stability.

Boom, there's your zerg busting force. A small group can pop potions to ignore CC and CC the hell out of the enemy zerg that likely won't pop said potions due to their cost.

Also I have to say your description of ESO was a bit inaccurate. Small groups can kill blobs quite readily if they're organized. Trick is to run Sorc Dk and bomb the hell out of them while popping potions. See guilds do it all the time.Why not make it potions you can only buy for gems in the black lion shop instead?

Might as well go all the way, yes?

I mean, if we're really going all the way. Delete all existing sigils of energy and sell them for gems. Delete all minstrels gear, sell that for gems.

[XenesisII.1540]

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:I don't know much about the engine scaling challenges in GW2, but some (WvW-only) ideas:

• Boon decay that increases with the number of players in close proximity. For example, your boons have -20% boon duration with 10 people near your character, -60% duration with 20 people, -80% with 30 people, etc. If this is too difficult to balance it could be constrained to key boons like stability.
• Skills that increase their damage based on number of proximate players. Imagine if something like meteor shower hit 1,000% harder on enemies (for the current target cap) when more than 15 enemies are in its radius. Or a single-target burst that becomes a one-shot-kill when a player is near too many allies.

Basically, disincentivizing huge stacking while preserving large-scale conflict.

More like disincentivizing people from playing.

Keep in mind you should think about changes in regards to pve and whether or not it would be viable changes, because it's the base part of the game. I highly doubt they would put in boon duration decay based on the amount of players around. -20% will already affect raid groups.

You literally ignored "WvW-only" in my post

And I'm telling you good luck getting anet to do a restrictive change like that for wvw only, they make changes with pve in mind, wvw mostly has numbers changes from the pve counterparts.

[Svarty.8019]

@"Haseno.6417" said:They run afoul because you lack the crowd control as a means of counter-warfare. In DAoC, a pac healer would drop an AOE Mezz on a zerg, then an AoE stun. Then the casters would PBAOE the zergs down. You can watch oldschool DAoC videos of groups like FUN II beating entire zergs as an 8-man team. You can watch famous DAoC groups like Team-Wizzy, who was literally 1 guy boxing multiple accounts with PBAOE Ice Wizards and 2 additional players to heal and provide minstrel speed. They would down entire zergs, and crowd control was the key to doing so. It obviously had to be executed correctly, but, it was the pinnacle of large-scale RVR balance. WvW/RvR should not be a battle of "the most numbers wins." Smaller groups should be provided the toolkit necessary to overcome the odds. WvW will not be fixed until THAT is a reality.

Good luck doing that in GW2 and most modern mmorpg's. You aren't given the toolkit to make that a reality. And yet, DAoC had the best large-scale PVP combat of all time and won the most awards consistently for nearly 2 decades to prove it.

I played DAOC. It was hell for anybody not in those 8, and later 16 person double groups. I remember Servants of the Lake and their /assist tanktrain that would mez a group and then 11111 each victim down in turn, being careful not to break stun by using only single target skills. I remember how this evolved into a coordinated PBAoE spamfiesta. It was horrific. Rubbish. Unfun. That's why the great mass of players decided it wasn't worth their time and money anymore.

16 people had a great time.

[Abyssisis.3971]

Reduce boon share duration to 50% for all boonsRework/Introduce some skills that get stronger the more players are caught/hit by said skills

[HappyHubris.1096]

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:I don't know much about the engine scaling challenges in GW2, but some (WvW-only) ideas:

• Boon decay that increases with the number of players in close proximity. For example, your boons have -20% boon duration with 10 people near your character, -60% duration with 20 people, -80% with 30 people, etc. If this is too difficult to balance it could be constrained to key boons like stability.
• Skills that increase their damage based on number of proximate players. Imagine if something like meteor shower hit 1,000% harder on enemies (for the current target cap) when more than 15 enemies are in its radius. Or a single-target burst that becomes a one-shot-kill when a player is near too many allies.

Basically, disincentivizing huge stacking while preserving large-scale conflict.

More like disincentivizing people from playing.

Keep in mind you should think about changes in regards to pve and whether or not it would be viable changes, because it's the base part of the game. I highly doubt they would put in boon duration decay based on the amount of players around. -20% will already affect raid groups.

You literally ignored "WvW-only" in my post

And I'm telling you good luck getting anet to do a restrictive change like that for wvw only, they make changes with pve in mind, wvw mostly has numbers changes from the pve counterparts.

The damage increase on number of PvP targets has literally no impact on PvE. or sPvP, if the trigger is a high enough number of people. You just want to keep snoozeball meta.

[XenesisII.1540]

@"HappyHubris.1096" said:The damage increase on number of PvP targets has literally no impact on PvE. or sPvP, if the trigger is a high enough number of people. You just want to keep snoozeball meta.

Wait... hold on... did you just imply that "I" want to keep the balling meta? lol. Sure I don't want zergs to outright die, but that goes for roaming and small groups too, there should be a place for every size of groups in wvw. What I don't think should happen is the bigger the group the more advantages they get other than having more numbers. Boons I think is the number one suspect that needs to be hauled in for questioning and sent to the slammer. So while I don't agree with your proposals, I actually agree that boons need to be adjusted, which the wvw devs can do by adjusting numbers which it seems all they can do.

Also your trigger would require them to implement a specific wvw mechanic for that to happen, and guess what, they won't, 9 years of wvw development, or rather lack of, tells me this. The only way this will happen is if the pve devs decide for it to happen, and it won't, the pvp devs just change numbers, this is why mirage got screwed because their mirage cloak was deemed too powerful and the work around was nerf their dodge rather than actually tweaking the mechanic.

You also cannot implement changes that negatively affect how many people are around, you will actually drive players away not to mention make the worst pirate ship meta ever. One shot meteors sound funny now, but when everyone is running a tank ele to one shot groups (due to your nice and shiny 1000% damage increase), it won't be as funny anymore, or how about them dire burn guards. I sure as heck wouldn't want to play when I can randomly get one shotted just cause 15 players I'm not even running with wandered into my area. Do you actually think players would actually run big groups anymore with the random chance they run into allies that screw the cap for them to get one shotted?

Not to mention how much lag is this going to produce? although I suppose with less groups around it would be less lag to balance it anyways I guess.

Lastly I don't think one shot should be a thing in a mmorpg, but in a fps or mmofps sure go ahead, but not in games that make you level 80 levels to get your skills and traits only to be subjected to a random one shot from stealth, or some rando one shot hit you can't even see coming when you're fighting in a crowd.

If all you want is small group fighting, go spvp.

[HappyHubris.1096]

If all you want is small group fighting, go spvp.

There's a huge spectrum between "people fighting almost exclusively in 30+ person spam blobs" and "small group fighting." You can have a big fight without "big buff pile" mechanics, as evidenced by many other MMOs.