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@"Infusion.7149" said:I don't know why you would be against increasing vampiric presence damage/healing for the necro only (while in shroud) for PvE only.

I'm against it because it's an unneeded change. Renegade granting broken life leeching through soulcleave summit don't justify a buff on vampiric presence.

Running Parasitic Contagion in Curses means you give up AoE on scepter and a large part of scepter's condition duration ,

Lingering curse, the scepter trait, is an overloaded trait that no trait can compete against for condi build. It's one of the most broken trait of the necromancer that everyone agree to turn a blind eye upon. +200 condi damage while wielding a scepter, +50% scepter's skills condi duration and make a single target skill of the scepter hit up to 5 targets.

Parasitic contagion is interesting in design but it doesn't have what it take to compete with a trait that feed on GW2's players main philosophy ("Moar damage! Moar!").

whereas Soul Eater has no such impact on Reapers and scrappers don't even need to trait anything (~33K DPS in full zerk).

Soul eater also increase damage on top of the "heal". Which feed on GW2's players main philosophy ("Moar damage! Moar!").

In any way, both Parasitic contagion and Soul eater are purely selfish traits while Vampiric presence is an altruistic trait. You're comparing apple and orange here which make your point confusing.

Bosses do have boons as well (especially in fractals), it's just that the defiance bar is an additional feature.

Bosses do have boons but:

  • They are assaulted by 5 to 10 (to zerg amount of players) players which make the competition for boon hate effect extremly high in PvE.
  • Bosses boons usually translate to useless conditions because having regen isn't going to have an impact on their billion high health pool, they have no use for vigor, Defiance protect them flawlessly against chill/cripple/slow/taunt and CCs (making stab/resistance) while aegis is bound to be broken by random hits before being corrupted. And on top of that bosses/mobs could careless about alacrity since they do not have CD on their skills.

Boons on Bosses have low meaning, except maybe might and protect. Unfortunately both of those boons are converted to conditions that bosses can basicaly ignore.

There really isn't a reason to buff offhand torch, Lucky Noobs' build actually runs double torch. You are better off increasing output from other offhands or weapons' conditions (offhand dagger for example) so that a full rotation has more skills to use.

There might be no reason but it's where a scourge's damage buff would be the most impactful and the least broken.

Holosmith's Photon Forge is a transformation as well which is why you can't pick up crystals in Solid Ocean fractals. Firebrand tomes aren't , berserker berserk mode is sort of a transform (Rampage has the same UI problem), and soulbeast merging isn't. Druids can use utilities in Celestial Avatar.

You're glossing over the issue. The arguments of the devs when they made them were about the classic transforms which mainly include rampage, tornado, Moa, lich form, Plagueform, DS, RS, become bear, become raven, become wolf, become leopard, avatar of melandru and summon powersuit. Those skills have a specific design. In case of the necromancer's DS and RS, changing this design is like redrawing the whole profession from the ground which can at best create numerous bugs and at worst break the game. The fact that they no longer have any of the initial developpers that could effectively work with the core architecture of the game make the change very difficult to implement and above all it would be high risk changes for the whole game.

A simple change to thief would not make it meta in PvE. Instead it would just be a weaker alternative to StM chrono that is easier to play while also allowing people with boon thief to use their gear elsewhere. Firebrands will remain meta so long as there is role compression (healbrand) and covering mistakes via aegis. Condi boon chrono will remain meta in cases where confusion is high damage ; it can also provide alacrity.

Then what? You'll have 5/10 team thiefs, who could careless about alacrity because "initiative", that capitalize on their ability to perma quickness/fury/might/swiftness by using a single skill every 20s and just melt bosses? Would there be any big difference with the "mesmer issue"? Like I said, you're just creating another broken support by making it spread quickness, nothing more nothing less.

Speaking of Berserker spec, it could use some help in PvP. I think that being able to drop berserk mode (at a cost of losing all adrenaline and all berserk mode damage mods) is more or less essential for it to be viable. Greatsword's Hundred Blades being able to move while channeling the skill would help too. Mirage's one dodge meme is a problem in WvW but as it isn't run in squads typically and chrono is common in squads it isn't as large a priority. If druids could perma-stow their pet in WvW they might be more accepted also.

Well, I believe that the thread is more or less: "PvP/WvW get change regularly, why don't we see more change in PvE?"Sure both mode could afford more tweaks but that's not exactly what the thread is meant to discuss.

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I guess we'll just agree to disagree on scourges then. Vampiric Presence is minimal damage for the rest of the group due to the interval limitation on top of being a life steal. Therefore increasing the damage for the necromancer (in shroud, mind you) only makes sense to me especially when you consider that you are more likely to run condi scourge than power. (It means that in PVE your maximum power is limited to around 3000.) Keep in mind Desert Shroud , unlike Reaper Shroud , has 20 base cooldown and 6s duration and merely 3.5 seconds duration when traited for Harbringer Shroud. Because it is lifesteal that doesn't scale with damage modifiers, you would not even use it on reapers which have far more benefit from Soul Reaping's Death Perception + Soul Barbs.

The only time that boon removal is rampant is if you run a power chronomancer stack (because of sword auto), which is why in a condi fight a change that benefits scourges is meaningful boon removal. If you have condi renegades or another necromancer it isn't going to be every few seconds due to resource limitations and cooldowns.

Re: thievesIt (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.

  • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
  • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running Short Fuse.
  • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses Improvisation and Swindler's Equilibrium . Daredevil variant uses Sleight of Hand and Improvisation to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

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@"Infusion.7149" said:For condi scourge to be stronger in PVE relative to other condi builds averaging a few thousand DPS higher (including condi shortbow soulbeast which is ranged similar to scourge), several things need to happen:

I'm going to comment on this too since Scourge is my main way I enjoy playing and I do think there are ways to help solve the issues.

  1. the punishment skills need to do more when targets don't have boons in PvE

I don't actually agree they have to. Punishment skills work well enough and what they do tends to be a bit stronger than other skills as is. You don't need to adjust boons in PvE to make Necromancer viable and even if you did it wouldn't work due to the sword auto attack on mesmer which is just quicker and better boon removal. It wouldn't quite work out like you want and it wouldn't be reliable. I do want more boons in PvE, but that's more a utility support type thing than to aid in DPS.

  1. the boon corrupts should do 100 defiance bar damage equivalent to 1s fear (that's what stability corrupts into ; a defiance bar is a PvE substitute for stability) , which would in turn proc Insidious Disruption if traited

That wouldn't really do anything to aid necromancer or scourge. Necromancer already does very well against breakbars. So having more isn't really a solution especially when there are long chunks of fights were the breakbar isn't active. Even if it applied fear It wouldn't be enough since you'd be giving up Plague Sending which would make Master of corruption less effective which which would also mean that you'd have to use dagger more. That's not a bad thing on its own but relying on transfer in a group is tricky in most groups since the support's gut reaction to you having condis on you is to cleans them. There's also the issue if you take terror you're trying to rely on terror to deal damage when in no circumstance does the condition last as long as the bleeding and torment from Blood is power which will outpace the burst from both insidious disruption and terror combine.

Even in the optimal situation it isn't quite as helpful as you might like.

  1. PvE enemies should have boons worth corrupting for defensive / offensive value , we can see this in DRMs where the enemies' quickness + might converts to slow and weakness which mitigates damage immensely

I agree. Boons make enemies more interesting and I'd go further having boons give those enemies unique buffs that can drastically change how you would approach them. However most the classes do not have access to boon removal so this could harm them more than helping necromancer. I'm personally in favor of sharing far more boon removal across classes as I feel its a vital tool, and corruption should be unique to necromancer(and maybe specific corruption on engineer) however boon removal shouldn't be isolated on so few skills across class. And Boon removal should be removed from Mind Spike. Seriously, that one freakin skill undermines all boon changes.

  1. Sadistic Searing needs a better PvE recharge reduction or more PvE burn stacks , if you're running one or even four punishment skills it is extremely underwhelming. Dessicate should be competitive with Blood is Power or better. Ghastly Breach already is split between PvE and competitive, so just reduce cooldown further.

Sadistic searing is perfectly reasonable for what it does. its not the area the scourge needs changed. I do agree Ghastly breach needs some buffs, however that is independent of Searing. Breach being more supportive is where i'd go with it as it seems that's what arena net wants for it, a sort of controlling and supportive skills but it really only works as a controlling skill in PvP and not so much as support in any game mode.

  1. an indirect way of supporting hybrid scourges would be to increase damage and heal scaling on vampiric presence while in shroud for PvE, see Predator's Cunning trait on soulbeast or Soulcleave summit

I get where you're coming from on this, however what the support scourge needs is more boons it can play with. Such as Fury, regen, and quickness/alacrity. You could double presence while scourge is using desert shroud and it wouldn't aid them all that much as a support. They really need boon support especially since the elite spec was supposed to have it but anet for some reason though might was enough when might is probably the most common boon in the game.

Here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1366036#Comment_1366036

A post I made a while ago looking at some of the issues with scourge and how to solve them on scourge. I do think you're heart is in the right place and I agree scourge needs some TLC, however I think it can be done with more pragmatic solutions as opposed to trying to reinvent entire systems so necromancer has a place in PvE.

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That doesn't make sense because punishment skills aren't used in PVE at all other than the Sand Flare heal (for barrier). In WvW you bring wells and trail of anguish is the only punishment skill besides the heal for barrier. You're basically bringing Sadistic Searing for a minor bit of burn if punishment skills don't bring anything worthwhile to the table versus boonless targets.

Let's say a target has no boons...

  • Dessicate: might isn't that long or high stacks , if you run full plaguedoctor you have 5 stacks maintained under alacrity (running Abrasive Grit over Fell Beacon gives up torch recharge and expertise but it still isn't as bad)
  • Sand Swell: only used for mobility , the barrier is lower than Sand Cascade
  • Serpent Siphon: the poison is 1 stack... so you're bringing it for less barrier than you have on Sand Cascade or boon conversion only 1 deep
  • Trail of Anguish: in order to have more than 1 stack of burn you need to have the target pass over it multiple times , but this is a stunbreak and swiftness/stability so it is okay

I'm also not sure how you quantify "good at breakbars" because other than fears (garish pillar) , daze, and 2s knockdown on torch there isn't hard CC on the meta scourge and it's not like you can afford to swap all your utilities out for a pull/fear/immob. Just because PUG DPS players think that "CC bars are the responsible of the alac" doesn't make it true.Hard CC

  • Wail of Doom = 200 daze on warhorn
  • Charge (flesh golem) = 200 from knockdown
  • Oppressive collapse = 200 from torch
  • Spectral Grasp = 150 pull +33/s from chill, utility slot

Soft CC

  • Garish Pillar (F4) Fear = 100/second , 200 total only if running Fear of Death in Soul Reaping
  • Spectral Ring Fear = 100/second , 200 total only if running Fear of Death in Soul Reaping
  • Haunt from Shadow fiend = Blind (20/s) + chill (33/s) + weakness (20/s)
  • Grasping Dead (scepter 2) Cripple = 15/secondhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar#Hard_control_effects

It is extremely unlikely for necromancer to get fury, quickness, or alacrity as new shared boons. Your best hope for alacrity is to flip incoming chills with Nefarious Favor (F2).It's already been shown that number adjustments are the primary balancing mechanism right now, see 300s cooldown for some defensive skills in competitive modes.

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@"Infusion.7149" said:Re: thievesIt (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from Bountiful Theft / Thrill of the Crime is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.

  • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
  • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running Short Fuse.
  • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses Improvisation and Swindler's Equilibrium . Daredevil variant uses Sleight of Hand and Improvisation to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

You're looking at things from the wrong angle. Just know that:

  • Both Bountiful Theft and Thrill of the Crime are already very strong traits that don't need any buff.
  • A change to the boons of these traits is bound to impact the game as a whole, not just PvE (and I'd rather not have PvPers complain yet again about "PvE changes").
  • Stacking thiefs change a lot of things to the builds priorities and thus your "numbers", making all of them pointless. To put it simply, you don't need swindler equilibrium if you have X thiefs in a group, It also make the 3 might into 3X (even a single DE among them could allow you to cap might without breaking a sweat), you also don't need the same gear/rune/food than what you'd use for a classic boon thief... etc.

I can see what you aim for and it's not a fondamentally wrong objectif, but, all in all, what you suggest would open a window of opportunity that would be very easy to exploit in order to create something broken.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Re: thievesIt (quickness) would not be broken on thieves if you needed diviner stats to actually maintain quickness on subgroup (as opposed to all boons , which is what Detonate Plasma supplies). Having it come from
Bountiful Theft
/
Thrill of the Crime
is markedly different than the prior "Feel My Wrath" or Time Warp stacking because you would either need to run core thief or drop a damage traitline on daredevil (the maximum damage bonus from trickery is 15% , whereas Critical Strikes has 7% multiplier and at least 20% from ferocity bonuses originating from
No Quarter
and
Practiced Tolerance
). Right now condi Firebrands are getting all quickness duration from Firebrand rune , chronomancers that are stacked use staggered intervals of Time Warp.
  • Might? It's 3 stacks. You get more from using Mantra of Potence or symbol of punishment, Heroic Command on renegade, "For Great Justice!"on warriors (if for some reason you decide to do that), boon herald facets, druids with warhorns, ... or running tempests of any kind
  • Fury? You can maintain already it with sword/axe on DPS firebrands and DHs. Boon herald can just upkeep facets. Most DPS classes can supply their own fury except for holosmith which needs boon duration unless running
    Short Fuse
    .
  • Swiftness? herald facets , but really... the only classes that capitalize off this are weaver (so no added benefit), warriors with Discipline traitline, and DPS scrapper

Considering Daredevil is a 35K DPS spec it is a different situation. If you run Snowcrows' Gear optimizer (which doesn't count spirits other than Frost Spirit or 25 stacks of vulnerability) with standard DPS daredevil the result is 23K whereas unchecking the entire Critical Strikes trait line results in <18K and that is without boon duration ; current Diviner Boon Thief results in 15K while Diviner Boon Daredevil results in ~12K if you check off pack runes and also ~12K if you check off mystical infusions. If you uncheck Critical Strikes or Deadly Arts on Deadeye (and leave it 0% boon duration) you end up with ~16K instead of ~21.6K so it'd be only on par with a StM chrono roughly if deadeye is a thing.

Core boon thief right now does not even use trickery, it uses
Improvisation
and
Swindler's Equilibrium
. Daredevil variant uses
Sleight of Hand
and
Improvisation
to drop Steal cooldown. Even in an "optimal" scenario such as Mursaat Overseer keeping in mind Detonate Plasma is 10 man and Bountiful Theft is 5, boon daredevil is supposedly 22K vs a DPS class which will do 30K+. On Adina, Boon Daredevil is listed as 12.5K vs 17K+ for DPS classes. In a suboptimal scenario such as Matthias, boon daredevil is listed as 9K vs 25K+ for condi DPS.

You're looking at things from the wrong angle. Just know that:
  • Both
    Bountiful Theft
    and
    Thrill of the Crime
    are already very strong traits that don't need any buff.
  • A change to the boons of these traits is bound to impact the game as a whole, not just PvE (and I'd rather not have PvPers complain yet again about "PvE changes").
  • Stacking thiefs change a lot of things to the builds priorities and thus your "numbers", making all of them pointless. To put it simply, you don't need swindler equilibrium if you have X thiefs in a group, It also make the 3 might into 3X (even a single DE among them could allow you to cap might without breaking a sweat), you also don't need the same gear/rune/food than what you'd use for a classic boon thief... etc.

I can see what you aim for and it's not a fondamentally wrong objectif, but, all in all, what you suggest would open a window of opportunity that would be very easy to exploit in order to create something broken.

I already addressed that, the quickness duration can be 1/4 second in PVP/WVW. Bountiful Theft is literally useless in PVE when the target has no boons and because it's in Trickery, once again I emphasize it will not have the same damage as a full DPS.Also, unless you can develop a team comp that actually "breaks the game" from one change (to bountiful theft), I'm just going to have to say that is pure conjecture. Especially when you consider that a druid provides full might easily, I don't think it would be gamebreaking. Unless you are going to meme you're still going to bring some sort of heals.

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