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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?


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@Firebeard.1746 said:Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

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@dubs.2396 said:TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

^This so much

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

How would you fix them?

I would fix players instead, who talk about this huge entry barrier for raids, while they don't understand it's the endgame content and autoattacking in green random gear is not what you are expected to do here, who refuse to gear properly and join training runs to actually learn the content instead of whining for easy mode raids. Raids are easy.

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@CasualElitist.8795 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

So 7000 people are supposed to be covered by 15 official training runs? Is this NA raid academy? Because the last time I checked, I saw tons of withdrawn community training pings and even progression pings because of lack of interest. If you're Eu, good for you. I can play just fine by the way, the issue is finding people to play with when I have time.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:Anyone doing them now only wants a participation reward. They don’t want to teach anyone or work with anyone, that’s why there’s so much KP requirements and why people stop and/or can’t start.

Yeah, no. If noone wants to teach people I wonder why my raid training discord has 7000 members, 15 official training squads per week (in peak of corona we had over 40 squads per week) + few unofficial training/progress raiding squads per day, multiple commanders spending their free time teaching people raids, dozens of people answering raid related questions and giving advice every single hour.

So 7000 people are supposed to be covered by 15 official training runs? Is this NA raid academy? Because the last time I checked, I saw tons of withdrawn community training pings and even progression pings because of lack of interest. If you're Eu, good for you. I can play just fine by the way, the issue is finding people to play with when I have time.

No, 7000 people is what we gathered since this discord was founded years ago. People getting trained, then they move on to train others or they form statics to progress further with ppl on the same lvl. We keep getting new trainees every day. It's EU, Crossroads Inn. Some people run during the day, some at the evenings, some late night, so there are always some ppl with matching shedules.

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@Safandula.8723 said:or just start playing with normal comps, instead of taking 8 healersoh, I think in opposite way, only one heal, and other in common hybride open word armor. Now we have what only zerk and viper mostly used ..this is shame on stat combination ..Soldier's Valkyrie Commander's Marauder Vigilant Crusader Wanderer's Marshal's Knight's Cavalier's Nomad's Settler's Carrion Rabid Dire Bringer's Apothecary's .. they mostly all not used for common raiders.On my concept every dps class can additionally have some vitality, toughness and other save stats. Yes, it can down boss longer and I don't see any reason add some penalty for that.We have bad stat balance, and 90+ stats is useless in common setup.So one way - make it not so scalable to dps, because now if I take Soldier's's whit divinity rune and zerk whit eagle I see very big difference. Incredible big, but not see realy big saving compared wiht lose.

And why 8 heals? Let it be all 10. Not joke. If I copy some concept from another also liked for me game imagine 10 druids kill boss, and main damage come from pets. This is normal way in some mmo in raids.

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real diversity of stats and biulds possible only if we update timers 2-3x, and bring 0 penaly for dps.For many people absolutely not fun learn rotation from some raid speed runners, they not associate that whit game. The fun take open world set, jump from damage and kill boss. I am not discuss it is ok or not. I say that I don't see another way to attract most gw2 population for raids.

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about LI/LD - this is not problem. I check raids last weeks, and see that people ask Li only on Monday. On others days/ and not prime time I see what I join where requirement 50kp, link 4-5 kp, and all happy and say Welcome, that I come because most squad wait members long time. And no one join.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

And that refute the release cadence how?

hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

And that refute the release cadence how?

hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

The only years we didn't see a new fractal were 2014 and 2015 and there was a slew at the start of them. I'd say that's more solid than raids on average. The release cadence is at least 2/year on average. If you do the same average over lifespan and include these years, then fractals still beat raids.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@BlueJin.4127 said:Different difficulties like fractals so that even casual players can play with random groups.

Because that's working so well for Fractal development right? Since Fractals have multiple difficulties we are getting one every couple of months and everyone is happy there.

You're conflating dev resources and participation. i'm sure fractals have higher overall participation.

And look at what that higher overall participation brought to them. Even lower release cadence than Raids.

Really? Because last I checked Sunqua peak came out after W7.

And that refute the release cadence how?

hint its the time bettwen when new fractals drop not what came last into the game.

The only years we didn't see a new fractal were 2014 and 2015 and there was a slew at the start of them. I'd say that's more solid than raids on average. The release cadence is at least 2/year on average. If you do the same average over lifespan and include these years, then fractals still beat raids.

Dont everything get a bunch at the strt the first 3 raid wings were released quite quickly now its been quite awhile since the last.

Same with fractals to be fare and that is with 4 difficulty mode so the famous easy mode is there.I wouldent call 2 over 20 months a 2 each year release cadence.

With the release of Living World Season 4, Episode 5: All or Nothing (January 8, 2019) the new Siren's Reef fractal was introduced.On September 15, 2020, the new Sunqua Peak fractal was introduced.

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The only way is for Anet to rework the build system to something more intuitive for most players, and to make it less dependent on damage modifiers. This is the biggest difference between GW2 and other MMOs. In other MMOs you just have your standard roles with pre-selected builds by the devs who hold your hand. It's so simple that even an automated queue system can match players effectively. GW2 has a huge amount of useless options, and very specific builds for specific comps. None of the true casuals know most of the build acronyms. HB, cFB, stm, alacrigade, BS. "What is all that stuff? Do you mean a tank?"

Boons are also a huge issue, because they are far too strong compared to every other game. Not only are they way more necessary, but you also need dedicated builds to constantly apply them instead of applying them once and then not worrying about it again for half an hour. What this does is it makes groups that are already pretty bad into completely terrible and unplayable groups, because the lack of boons makes their bad performance even worse. They can't even practice their builds properly without a proper boon support to carry them.

I truly don't know if Anet should do these reworks or not, but I do know that if they don't happen raiding will never ever be popular in GW2. No matter the amount of training guilds or strikes or easy mode raids, it's just not happening.

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@lare.5129 said:oh, I think in opposite way, only one heal, and other in common hybride open word armor. Now we have what only zerk and viper mostly used ..this is shame on stat combination ..Soldier's Valkyrie Commander's Marauder Vigilant Crusader Wanderer's Marshal's Knight's Cavalier's Nomad's Settler's Carrion Rabid Dire Bringer's Apothecary's .. they mostly all not used for common raiders.

And that's why you hit enrage but at least with that many healers overhealing enrage shouldn't be an issue ;)

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The only way to give an incentive to raids is simply to make the rewards better. Right now 95+% of raiders are making less money than people farming AB or Dragonfall brainlessly. "Why would I take time learning raids if I can just farm and get more rewards".

There are a bunch of people ready to help you progress, but there are not many people that wish to progress. I've raided with a dozen of training guilds, and you don't even want to know how many people actually ask for advices on rotations etc, because it is close to 0.

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@lare.5129 said:real diversity of stats and biulds possible only if we update timers 2-3x, and bring 0 penaly for dps.For many people absolutely not fun learn rotation from some raid speed runners, they not associate that whit game. The fun take open world set, jump from damage and kill boss. I am not discuss it is ok or not. I say that I don't see another way to attract most gw2 population for raids.

ur a real pionier, humanity needs more ppl like u

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@"dubs.2396" said:I'm always super surprised at this stance with new raiders talking about the huge barrier to entry. I've raided at the highest difficulty in ever MMO I've played. This is the only MMO, from personal experience, that has a large "training" community. My mythic raid team in WoW is NEVER going to train a new player to raid at our level.

I think that is largely driven by the scaling difficulty of the raids themselves. WoW players have the stance.. If you want to learn, learn at the lower levels. I won't get into the debate regarding Anet adding an easier difficulty. Plenty of form posts on that.

However, I think the fact that this game has experienced raiders willing to train new players is half of the solution. The other half lies on the new players to raid like yourself. If experienced raiders are willing to give their time and teach the basics, new players need to take ownership and pick up the torch.

I had 0 LI a year ago. Now I have over 1,000. My entire static has over a 1,000. You know why? In a training raid, I too felt, like you.. they were time consuming and only focused on specific bosses. I wanted to learn all the bosses. I made a form post, a few discord posts, and joined 2 mega guilds in which I advertised in guild chat. I advertised to find 9 other players that were new, had no experience, and just wanted to work through the raids together starting at Boss 1, VG. I told them we were going to stay on VG until he died and then progress in order, W1-W7.

I got probably 30-40 responses. My static, over the past year, has weeded out some 20 people that either didn't improve. Didn't really enjoy consistent raiding like they thought they would. Didn't show up, etc. But, we raid 3 hours a week and full clear W1-W7 with ease now.

My group all has over 1,000 LI and anytime we pug, I list in LFG that we need a dps without ever posting an LI requirement. No LI listings are somewhat common on Mondays when we raid actually. If the person does more than 10k dps and doesn't stand in every fire possible, we just let it ride. 95% of the time they are good anyway.

TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

Yes, gw2 has so many dedicated guilds to training, people literraly spend like 2 hours just to teach 1 wing to new ppl and wipe -gg- wipe, it says a lot about the dedication

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The only thing Anet would need to do to keep raids relevant is to release new quality raids in a timely manner. At least one raid per LS season and 2 per expansion. And market them. Right now there are not enough raids to expect a healthy raiding community and the future looks bleak. Noone that plays raids as his primary game mode would play GW2.The game has everything that it needs but the content itself.

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