A necessary improvement in preparation for the Legendary Armory

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's all optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's

all

optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

It's a way for people that won't play content to get gear that comes from that content. It's unnecessary. There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.

[Katary.7096]

@Astralporing.1957 said:If.Would you care to elaborate on that?

[Emberheart.8426]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.I have a hunch that this idea will age very poorly, in about a month when the legendary for the icebrood saga comes out. There will be a new legenderay for the icebrood saga and it will definitely not be an aquabreather. If an aquabreather happens it will be in EoD, so that only really leaves more legendary trinkets.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Legendaries tied to specific game modes are there to drive players to play them. I don’t see this changing.I have a hunch that this idea will age very poorly, in about a month when the legendary for the icebrood saga comes out. There will be a new legenderay for the icebrood saga and it will definitely not be an aquabreather.

I believe you missed the context of what I was saying. I wasn’t referring to legendary types. I don’t see an issue with the three game modes having a means to acquire Legendaries so long as they don’t use the existing skins. There are more specifics that I’m leaving out but that’s the gist of it.

EDIT:

To add more clarification as I believe my use of "legendary types" may come off confusing. I have no issue with each of the three game modes having their own set of legendary items although I do question whether it's necessary for sPvP (they have no use for them). This means that PvE, WvW, and sPvP can acquire legendary weapons, trinkets, and armor in their own game modes.

One caveat being that they're should not compete with those of other game modes so skins should be unique (i.e. existing legendary weapon skins should not be available in the other game modes). If a game mode having a unique skin is part of its value (i.e. legendary armor), the other game modes should having "blank" legendaries, or in other words, non-unique skinned legendaries.

The effort for the acquisition of legendary equipment should be kept similar across the three game modes. If legendary weapons are viable in WvW, the effort one would have make in PvE to acquire them should be similar to the effort required in WvW. Given the differences, and limitations of two of the game modes, this won't necessarily be easy to achieve.

If additional legendaries are added, they should follow the same acquisition method for their given slot. This means that new legendary weapons in PvE should be acquired through open world and general PvE, new legendary trinkets in PvE should be acquired through the living story, a new legendary backpack should be acquired through fractals, etc.

If an aquabreather happens it will be in EoD, so that only really leaves more legendary trinkets.

Nothing about Cantha necessarily means that it will give a legendary related to underwater.

[Astralporing.1957]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's

all

optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

It's a way for people

that won't play content

to get gear that comes from that content

.Yes. So? It being an unique reward associated with raids is a purely arbitrary choice. Somehow, WvW players, and even SPvP ones (for whom legendary gear is completely pointless) got their versions too, but the majority of PvE players didn't.

It's unnecessary.

Again, next to nothing in this game is necessary. Raids themselves are not necessary. It's not about it being necessary, but about it being

desirable

. All the rewards in this game are like this. This one is not an exception.Notice also, that the same argument can be used in the other direction: locking out the majority of PvE players from obtaining legendary armor is also completely unnecessary.

There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.There's nothing in Raids that makes that armor necessary either. There's definitely nothing in SPvP that makes a legendary armor (or legenady anything) not only necessary, but even useful. And yet they are there. So, your point was?

Again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Katary.7096 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

If.

Would you care to elaborate on that?Sure.

It was a response to your statement of

If legendary items in gw2 have been fine for over 8 years even though relatively few players are pursuing them, then this suggestion certainly isn't a "necessary preparation" for the legendary armory feature.I pointed out that it was a big assumption, considering that threads about legendary gear and problems some people have with them pop up on those forums on a regular basis. Thus, the response can only be to point out that big "If" on which your statement hinges on.

In short, i don't agree that legendary gear has been perfectly fine for those 8 years. There have been multiple problems with it throughout the game history. Some have been addressed, some weren't and are still present.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:More accurately, if the situation arose where I decided I wanted to go all out for BiS gear, I'd do what had to be done to get it. You see, claiming that alternate paths are necessary, the topic of the thread, is what I object to. It's not. Some people, maybe quite a few, want it, but that doesn't equate to necessary.So, again we're back to "it's optional" argument in a game where practically everything that moves players can be considered to be optional?Alternate paths for legendary pve armor are no more (or less) unnecessary than its presence in raids. Or even the very existence of raid content. It's

all

optional. But something being optional does not mean we should not have it.

It's a way for people

that won't play content

to get gear that comes from that content

.Yes. So? It being an unique reward associated with raids is a purely arbitrary choice. Somehow, WvW players, and even SPvP ones (for whom legendary gear is completely pointless) got their versions too, but the majority of PvE players didn't.

It's unnecessary.

Again, next to nothing in this game is necessary. Raids themselves are not necessary. It's not about it being necessary, but about it being

desirable

. All the rewards in this game are like this. This one is not an exception.Notice also, that the same argument can be used in the other direction: locking out the majority of PvE players from obtaining legendary armor is also completely unnecessary.

There is nothing in overland that requires BiS anything. I don't have it, and yet, I can play all my toons in PoF and HoT maps, and not just running story, at least, all the ones that are high enough to be there. If not having this was literally locking people out of content, it would be necessary, but it's not.There's nothing in Raids that makes that armor necessary either. There's definitely nothing in SPvP that makes a legendary armor (or legenady anything) not only necessary, but even useful. And yet they are there. So, your point was?

Again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it?

How many threads, over the years, have we seen asking to be able to view people's gear? If you could only point to one, you would have your answer. In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.Something being unnecessary does not mean it should not be made. The alternate path would be no more or less necessary than the first one is. Do you think Anet should not have put legendary armor in raids? Do you think it was a bad decision? If not, why putting one somewhere else would be different?So far, you are only talking about why you think the alternate path is not obligatory, but you are yet to give even one argument about why do you think introducing it would be bad for the game.

So, again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it? Why it should be present in raids, WvW, and (especially) SPvP, but not be available for the players that stick to the vast majority of the PvE content?

If the strongest argument you have is "it's not necessary", then in reality you have no argument at all.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:In either case, you refute yourself in this post, and possibly others, but I didn't catch it until now, IF the gear is unnecessary to play the game, then an alternate path to it is also unnecessary.Something being unnecessary does not mean it should not be made. The alternate path would be no more or less necessary than the first one is. Do you think Anet should not have put legendary armor in raids? Do you think it was a bad decision? If not, why putting one somewhere else would be different?So far, you are only talking about why you think the alternate path is not obligatory, but you are yet to give even one argument about why do you think introducing it would be bad for the game.

So, again: is it necessary somehow for that armor to be locked to raids? If so, why? If not, why not allow alternate path to it? Why it should be present in raids, WvW, and (especially) SPvP, but not be available for the players that stick to the vast majority of the PvE content?

If the strongest argument you have is "it's not necessary", then in reality you have no argument at all.

Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed? I get that it's inconvenient, but as you say yourself, it's not required to have this gear for anything in game. Since that is your stated position, then there is absolutely no reason to spend developer resources on creating alternative paths to something that nobody needs. As I said, if one could document that the lack of that gear is, mechanically, locking them out of content, then yeah, we could probably use an alternative path to getting it. Since it doesn't, however...

[Astralporing.1957]

@robertthebard.8150 said:Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed?

If we were following that kind of thinking, we would not have most of the features and content of this game. Many of the features this game had on launch, and most of the changes done later weren't truly necessary. It does not mean they should not have been implemented, though.

That's a failure in your reasoning - most inventions and changes for the better in human history were not a matter of necessity, but of convenience, comfort and desires. If we only followed what was necessary, we would still be sitting around fire in a cave. And someone would complain that neither fire or the cave were necessary.

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Actually, it's the best possible argument. Why spend the time/money developing something that isn't needed?

If we were following that kind of thinking, we would not have most of the features and content of this game. Many of the features this game had on launch, and most of the changes done later weren't truly necessary. It does not mean they should not have been implemented, though.

That's a failure in your reasoning - most inventions and changes for the better in human history were not a matter of necessity, but of convenience, comfort and desires. If we only followed what was necessary, we would still be sitting around fire in a cave. And someone would complain that neither fire or the cave were necessary.

Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.Oh, but it was because there were people that wanted it implemented. Just like there are people that want the alternate PvE legendary to be implemented. There's no difference here.

So, you can just treat adding an alternate version of the armor to "add to their bottom line" in about the same way as adding the raid version did. If it was okay to introduce a raid version, it should be equally okay to introduce a non-raid one. Nothing you said so far pointed otherwise.

Or, to put it differently: how exactly is legendary armor different than legendary weapons in that regard?

So far all your argument is about is "they should not waste resources on it, because i, personally, don't care about it". There's nothing more to it.(although you are surprisingly very vocal against this for someone that just doesn't care - is there a reason you've not mentioned why you are so opposed to it being implemented?)

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Nope, it's not a flaw in my reasoning. There's a difference between "it would be nice to have this" and "we need this". Reading the topic title, and your subsequent responses, it's not a case of "it would be nice to have it", but a case of "but we need it". Why? The lack of it does not lock anyone out of content, you've already stated as much. Since this is true, then it's not "needed", but "wanted", and that doesn't mean it should be added. As to all of the other stuff that was added that wasn't "needed", or wasn't necessary, it added to their bottom line in the case of cosmetics or expansions, which means that they needed it, even if we didn't.Oh, but it was because there were people that wanted it implemented. Just like there are people that want the alternate PvE legendary to be implemented. There's no difference here.

So, you can just treat adding an alternate version of the armor to "add to their bottom line" in about the same way as adding the raid version did. If it was okay to introduce a raid version, it should be equally okay to introduce a non-raid one. Nothing you said so far pointed otherwise.

Or, to put it differently: how exactly is legendary armor different than legendary weapons in that regard?

So far all your argument is about is "they should not waste resources on it, because

i

, personally, don't care about it". There's nothing more to it.(although you are surprisingly very vocal against this for someone that just doesn't care - is there a reason you've not mentioned why you are so opposed to it being implemented?)

So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

How did adding legendary armor to raids add to their bottom line? How did adding it to SPvP did the same? How did introducing second generation of legendary weapons add to their bottom line? Notice, none of those were added to cash shop and monetized, and all of those were offered for people that were already playing.So, how adding an open world legendary armor would be different from those?

And, again, why are you so dead set against it, if it's only because "it's unnecessary"?

[robertthebard.8150]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:So they're going to add this to the Cash Shop, or otherwise monetize it? Won't that make the game P2W then? If not, it's not going to add significantly to their bottom line, because all the people that want this, are playing now.

How did adding legendary armor to raids add to their bottom line? How did adding it to SPvP did the same? How did introducing second generation of legendary weapons add to their bottom line? Notice, none of those were added to cash shop and monetized, and all of those were offered for people that were already playing.So, how adding an open world legendary armor would be different from those?

And, again, why are you so dead set against it, if it's only because "it's unnecessary"?

Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary. I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute. Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?

I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?

[Manasa Devi.7958]

PvE needs long-term objectives that feel like advancement. Advancement that's more significant than just watching a number (AP) go up. You can argue whether or not legendary armor is something that qualifies as a worthy long term goal to be added, but it sure seems like a more interesting objective than yet another weapon set, or just farming gold to buy cosmetic infusions.

As for myself, I'd like to see PvE legendary armor, because I'd like a third set to complete all 3 weights. I'm not going to get that 3rd set any other way, I currently have no interest anymore in doing more than the occasional PvE.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"robertthebard.8150" said:Because I'm in a thread telling me that it's necessary.

You are not arguing with the thread however. You are arguing with people that tell you that this may not be strictly necessary, but still nice to have. And your response is "but you should not get it, because I 'm not interested in it"

I'm in a protracted discussion with someone telling me that it's necessary, even though the gear isn't needed for any content, which I know to be true. So telling me that an alternate path to something I don't need is necessary does not compute.And here is the core of the issue i have with your argumentation. You don't need it, therefore noone shall have it.Frankly, if it's just about you not needing it, why do you care if the alternate option is made or not? Would introducing it hurt you in any way?

Maybe I'm just old school, and believe that if something is worth having, it's worth putting in the work to get it?The "old school" hardcore players that view and value something that should be first and foremost fun and entertaining solely by how much effort they need to put in it (regardless if that work even makes sense), and treat it as a second job, are a minority now. In fact, i don't think they were in a majority even during those "old times" either - there always were casuals, and they always outnumbered the hardcores. The only change since then is that the ratio got even more skewed towards casual players now.

It doesn't matter if something is "worth putting the work to get it" or not, if the work itself makes no sense. People should be playing raids because they like that type of content. Not because they have been paid off for it. It's not a job, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun.

I wonder, though, how many people played longer than they might have, due to gear being a carrot in raiding or other areas, especially if they were already interested in these activities, but had no clear goals for continuing to do them? Most progression raiding systems are done for BiS gear, that is needed for the hardest tier. So people do it to get that gear. I used to be one of those. That does make people play longer, and in some games, either buy account unlocks, swtor, for example, or keep paying their sub for better access to the content. So how many people played longer than they might have, and bought character slots, or bank/bag space, or some cosmetics that they wouldn't have otherwise purchased, because they wanted that BiS gear for Fractals?You don't know. Just as you don't know how many people stopped playing/buying stuff due to burnout that came from farming for something they wanted in a content they hated. I do know that it worked like that for me and a number of people i know, at least.

Remember, though, that ultimately Anet ended up considering raids to not be a good return for effort put, since they cancelled them.

[Ayrilana.1396]

There already is a PvE legendary armor set...

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There already is a PvE legendary armor set...Theoretically, sure. In practice, though, it's obtainable through niche content that lies outside what huge majority of PvE players do.

In th end i's a Raid armor, not PvE one. Because while pve encompasses raids, raids cover only a small sliver of pve.

[Excursion.9752]

I am one of those who used to complain about this very thing. (Oh the shame) But the main reason I complained was because I had a lack of time and I was unfamiliar with the other game modes. So time and ignorance were my faults. It was not anyone else's problem by my own. Sure I was not good at WvW or PvP and I had no one to raid with. But I worked at it and made like minded friends. Friends that were I was at in my conquest. I personally wanted to get all the legendary armor (1 set of each) and jewelry items for my account.

Today I have done just that. In under two years I have obtained a decently High rank in both WvW and PvP and have a good amount of raid finishes. The most intimidating thing to me and some of my friends was the 20 Tournament wins in PvP. The truth of the matter it was not that bad. It does take time but everything worth getting in this game does.

But when it comes down to it people need to stop making excuses or work a rounds for things that are hard to get. The truth of the matter if they took the same energy that it takes to complain and look for ways around the problem and applied it to actually working towards their goal you probably be pretty far into their task by now.

Haters gonna hate. People will complain about you. People will offer you advice. And the vast majority while people will have their fun but they will be helpful. Everything in life is about how you react to situations and criticisms. Are you going to run or are you going to adapt keep pushing on. I hope you keep pushing on because it feels pretty good when you do something you thought you couldn't do.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There already is a PvE legendary armor set...Theoretically, sure. In practice, though, it's obtainable through niche content that lies outside what huge majority of PvE players do.

In th end i's a Raid armor, not PvE one. Because while pve encompasses raids, raids cover only a small sliver of pve.

Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Excursion.9752 said:But when it comes down to it people need to stop making excuses or work a rounds for things that are hard to get. The truth of the matter if they took the same energy that it takes to complain and look for ways around the problem and applied it to actually working towards their goal you probably be pretty far into their task by now.

Haters gonna hate. People will complain about you. People will offer you advice. And the vast majority while people will have their fun but they will be helpful. Everything in life is about how you react to situations and criticisms. Are you going to run or are you going to adapt keep pushing on. I hope you keep pushing on because it feels pretty good when you do something you thought you couldn't do.You might have missed the part where i have pointed out that i already obtained that armor. Didn't stop me from complaining, because (unlike in your case, as it seems) i'm not judging it solely based on my personal needs.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.Raids are indeed a part of a PvE, but a very small one - and they are not a content that is representative of that mode. In fact, they are very, very far from that point.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are PvE. It’d be no different if legendary armor were only available in dungeons or fractals. Just because it’s not in a game mode that you play, does this mean that it’s not PvE.Raids are indeed a part of a PvE, but a very small one - and they are not a content that is

representative

of that mode.

Raids are PvE content. Legendary armor is obtainable through raids. Therefore, legendary armor is obtainable in PvE. I doubt we’d be having this discussion if they were only available through fractals and fractals are niche compared to generic open world.