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Please reevaluate barrier


mrauls.6519

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

Oh I don't disagree. Those traits probably should grant large barrier amounts, but on 10-15s CDs.

Then you could have things like unnerfed Warrior's Cunning as a hard counter and be fair.

Edit: if they did that, then impact savant should have the vitality penalty removed.

Or they could make the +50% damage only affect the barrier itself, or thry could make it pierce through barrier like unblockable does to blocks. It's really easy, and I don't understand how they botched the design so much.

Because its probably not as easy as you're making out.

It would be easier to make barrier traits grant more barrier, but with 10-15s CDs, and then give a few classes anti barrier traits like prenerfed Warrior's Cunning. It could be things like increased condition damage, or condition durations. Barrier needs a hard counter to it.

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Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

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@Fueki.4753 said:Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

You can always just making the game harder by taking off your gear and using a less effective build.There literally is no need to make the game harder (and for many people this also means more tedious and less enjoyable) for people who don't want it.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

Lmao, slapping more boons and more hp/barrier on enemies in PvE =/= challenging content, it'll still be no brainer but longer fight, how you even came up with that conclusion is beyond me. Only few classes can deal with boons in PvE, same goes for barrier...

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

You can always just making the game harder by taking off your gear and using a less effective build.There literally is no need to make the game harder (and for many people this also means more tedious and less enjoyable) for people who don't want it.

Nah, I spent too much effort making Purple Gear to do that. Besides just making enemies hit harder does not necessarily make them more difficult gameplay wise.

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@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

Lmao, slapping more boons and more hp/barrier on enemies in PvE =/= challenging content, it'll still be no brainer but longer fight, how you even came up with that conclusion is beyond me. Only few classes can deal with boons in PvE, same goes for barrier...

Because having more mechanics to counter and overcome raises the difficulty in a more meaningful way than giving damage floaters an extra digit.

From what I recall every class in PvE has access to Sigils of Nullification and Absorption, so every class can deal with boons in PvE. Barrier, well hasn't this conversation turned to having more anti barrier traits in the game?

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

a better way to do that would be to reduce the 10 sec window in between pve mob attacks, have them move out of damage/ dodge, do combo attacks (stun + burst), and actually change tactics every now and then. for some reason i'm always disappointed when i start a new game and all i encounter are hp sponges and 1 hit kills/ cc lock mobs. its like no one wants to design actual artificial intelligence but cater to the lowest skilled person (or masochists) to supply them with low strength dopamine fuel.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

a better way to do that would be to reduce the 10 sec window in between pve mob attacks, have them move out of damage/ dodge, do combo attacks (stun + burst), and actually change tactics every now and then. for some reason i'm always disappointed when i start a new game and all i encounter are hp sponges and 1 hit kills/ cc lock mobs. its like no one wants to design actual artificial intelligence but cater to the lowest skilled person (or masochists) to supply them with low strength dopamine fuel.

Yeah, but can you imagine the typical GW2 player in a PvE environment like that?

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:An idea for a fix would be to make barrier like any other buff source where they don't stack.

So if 2x Scourges are in a team and were to use their heal utilities that use barrier at the same time, only the stronger barrier would apply to the team.

That would work.

Barrier stacks from other barrier sources should stack, just not sources from the same exact skill.

So a scourge could land sand shades on you with barrier and stack that barrier with his heal utility, but a 2nd scourge doing the same thing, his sand shades and utility would not stack with the 1st scourge's skills.

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Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

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@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

They would have to rework scourge completely also

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

It would have to become:

Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

Or something like that.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

It would have to become:

Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

Or something like that.

I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

It would have to become:

Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

Or something like that.

I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

its problematic for scourge since it leans hard on barrier to stay alive, since its squishier than reaper.

isn't there some trait or something they can buff to make it feel better for engi?

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

It would have to become:

Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

Or something like that.

I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

True... I tend to forget about that. Scrapper is my favorite Engi spec, but I don't play it nearly enough. Outside of Explosives I haven't really encountered barrier to be a problem versus an engineer though, so I suppose this debate is more centered on Scourge+Blood Bank in the end. Perhaps give it the Dhuumfire treatment?

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@QuirkyDM.2351 said:Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely
again
.The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

It would have to become:

Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

Or something like that.

I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

True... I tend to forget about that. Scrapper is my favorite Engi spec, but I don't play it nearly enough. Outside of Explosives I haven't really encountered barrier to be a problem versus an engineer though, so I suppose this debate is more centered on Scourge+Blood Bank in the end. Perhaps give it the Dhuumfire treatment?

It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.

Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

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