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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

it's very unlikely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD

Double negative? You meant "it's very likely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD" or "it's very unlikely that we will get a new set of raids for EoD"

"Its likely we will ..." is how it reads.

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@"Antioche.7034" said:The only way to give an incentive to raids is simply to make the rewards better. Right now 95+% of raiders are making less money than people farming AB or Dragonfall brainlessly. "Why would I take time learning raids if I can just farm and get more rewards".it ok to make raid to, if you not need for that spend hour on golema and learn meta-rotation. People looking game, not work.

There are a bunch of people ready to help you progress, but there are not many people that wish to progress.I am not sure that this is "progress". More look like it is play by some rules.

I've raided with a dozen of training guilds, and you don't even want to know how many people actually ask for advices on rotations etc, because it is close to 0.yes, beause for many players "rotation" is not game and is not fun. We want attract them?

@Safandula.8723 said:ur a real pionier, humanity needs more ppl like uyes, I am know, I am hero. But I can only show direction, the way processes is not for me.

@"Cuks.8241" said:Right now there are not enough raids to expect a healthy raiding community and the future looks bleak. Noone that plays raids as his primary game mode would play GW2.why you think what we need them, that current "raiding community "? I am not sure.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Safandula.8723" said:ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

it's very unlikely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD

Double negative? You meant "it's very likely that we wont get a new set of raids for EoD" or "it's very unlikely that we will get a new set of raids for EoD"

"Its likely we will ..." is how it reads.

what they said. clunky as it may be, it's not grammatically incorrect.Also "it's very likely that we wont" and "it's very unlikely that we will" mean the same thing, which is the opposite of what i said.

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The following:

  1. Make raids able to be done WITHOUT people training for them. Any notion people need to train for raids is 100% absurd. HOW? Raid mechanics need to be more familiar with all players in the game. Anet can do things like add raid mechanics to content people encounter more regularly, make those mechanics less punishing in those regular encounters and make the rewards of those encounters depend on how well people perform with those mechanics.
  2. Make people aware of what mechanics they will encounter during the raid ... basically give players LITERAL warnings, prompts, etc ... so they know when to do things, where to go, what NOT to do, etc ...
  3. Make those prompts an option based on an player game option.

Yes, basically, hold people's hands while doing raids ... and before you crap on the idea, ask yourself if you want more raids or not?

If Anet addresses the ease that players can participate in raids at their leisure and be successful, any argument they can't find 9 people to raid dissolves.

Bottomline: if the average player can't just go into a raid and be successful, they simply aren't going to go.

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@Obtena.7952 said:The following:

  1. Make raids able to be done WITHOUT people training for them. Any notion people need to train for raids is 100% absurd. HOW? Raid mechanics need to be more familiar with all players in the game. Anet can do things like add raid mechanics to content people encounter more regularly, make those mechanics less punishing in those regular encounters and make the rewards of those encounters depend on how well people perform with those mechanics.
  2. Make people aware of what mechanics they will encounter during the raid ... basically give players LITERAL warnings, prompts, etc ... so they know when to do things, where to go, what NOT to do, etc ...
  3. Make those prompts an option based on an player game option.

Yes, basically, hold people's hands while doing raids ... and before you kitten on the idea, ask yourself if you want more raids or not?

If Anet addresses the ease that players can participate in raids at their leisure and be successful, any argument they can't find 9 people to raid dissolves.

Bottomline: if the average player can't just go into a raid and be successful, they simply aren't going to go.

You're on to something here. It's not just hand-holding. It's how this game is built and its original player base vs how raids operate. It was designed to be something that you can just visit as you have time on just about any aspect. The raids, however, have mechanics that require disc and/or special muscle memory, i.e. players must learn certain skills in order to not wipe their squad, or must communicate effectively in real time. It's also very common that there's at least 1 mechanic that puts heavy pressure on one player, and if that player fails, everyone dies (W5 pusher, hand kite, shields, VG orbs (often dealt with by Druid)). That pretty much rules out it being an activity that you can just visit as you have time -> if you try pugging, you can keep failing, through no fault of your own if enough of your team mates don't have it down. So, you must build a static of people to work with so hopefully they'll get it over time and you won't waste your time every time you step into the same boss. Otherwise, it's wiping over and over on a new set of randos. This also means, YOU MUST SHOW UP EVERY WEEK if you don't want to lose your spot. That destroys some of the core design principles of this game.

I don't want to ruin what's left of the raid community's fun, but I also think that when Anet released these raids, the concept of different tiered difficulty was new, or they just didn't want to put the resources into it. In hindsight, that was a terrible decision. Everything about the way raids were designed conflicts with how players are used to playing this game, and playing raids effectively means you must play it EXACTLY LIKE OTHER MMOs anet was trying to stand out from. Which is what Anet didn't want. The only sane way to keep current raiders happy and to make raids jive with the game is to introduce a lower tier of difficulty that doesn't have these elements. I'd say introduce something below the non-CM versions that's supposed to be puggable. Ironically enough, in plenty of other MMOs, the mechanics are not like GW2 raids. It's literally stuff where if you do your job, everything goes fine. At least I felt like I could PuG heroic on WoW. That's actually how I got my spellwing, from a PuG the very last night of Legion. Maybe Blizzard dumbed stuff down for their older player base. But really if they made a Puggable difficulty other people would play them I'm sure and it would be fine for everyone.

I don't think the raids are difficult per se, it's the mechanic design that destroys the ability to PuG them. Some strike bosses have HP pools comparable to raid boss HP pools. Also those stupid collections from the legendary gear achievements don't help either, because it essentially forces you to build a static that can clear everything at least a few times. As soon as I saw that, my will to do them went down, especially given GW2's lack of raid locks. THere's so much wrong with this system, both in its inception as well as the player base they tried to force it on. I think they can remedy the situation, but I'm not holding my breath. Anet rarely, if ever, revisits old systems and fixes them. Though I feel like that'd be a mistake given how raids are supposed to be the core of MMOs. Even if raids were never meant to be here, anyone coming from outside of GW2 is automatically going to judge the holes in its systems and the fact that LFG often has more sellers than actual groups and it's not going to look good.

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@lare.5129 said:

@"Antioche.7034" said:The only way to give an incentive to raids is simply to make the rewards better. Right now 95+% of raiders are making less money than people farming AB or Dragonfall brainlessly. "Why would I take time learning raids if I can just farm and get more rewards".it ok to make raid to, if you not need for that spend hour on golema and learn meta-rotation. People looking game, not work.

You dont need to remember a fixed rotation to do acceptable dps. All you need to do is knowing your class some bit aka. knowing where your main damage comes from or from what combinations your damage comes from. Also you shouldnt be lazy - this game has action combat so it is likely that you will press more buttons like e.g. in Wow (at least for my pov - i never played WoW).

If you wanna play classes without a real rotation then play power warrior or condition Firebrand.

I never tried it, but i would say if you dont even switch to scepter on Firebrand before your F1 you will not loose that much dps.So all you need to do is spam axe/torch 1-4 with 2-4 having a higer priority than axe 1. Also just use your sword of justice of cooldown and use all mantra charges but one.Once in a while go in your F1 Tome when its ready again and press 2-4-5-1-2 in it.

Where is this a rotation or too much to remember?

On power warrior you only need to remeber like five ways to fill up your adrenaline to use another decapitate (each way has only one or two skills that needs to be pressed).Again where is this a rotation or too much to remember? (Imo this build plays a bit faster than firebrand though).

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@"Senfdieb.3985" said:You dont need to remember a fixed rotation to do acceptable dps. All you need to do is knowing your class some bit aka. knowing where your main damage comes from or from what combinations your damage comes from.this is true if already selected "proper traists and stats, and runes/sigls"

Also you shouldnt be lazy - this game has action combat so it is likely that you will press more buttons like e.g. in Wow (at least for my pov - i never played WoW).I am play long time wow, but then I find gw2 - I say - oj, it so coolIn wow for for most dps u can press 2 keys, on some class/biuld u can spam 1 key. Ofc these key macro, they absolutely legal and integrated in options. But we not look how to compare .. We already in gw2.

If you wanna play classes without a real rotation then play power warrior or condition Firebrand.me? oh, I am ok already. And I play hfb/hsg/druid/alac and absolutely no worry about dps, and very rare use arcdps. to measure it. I care only boon uptime from myself.

Where is this a rotation or too much to remember?I renumber only on slb, but on most fight all need support, and very rare use it.

Again where is this a rotation or too much to remember? (Imo this build plays a bit faster than firebrand though).on condi rev I not like rotation. On condi holo also not optimal.

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Something you should think about - and I'm not a raider but this is base on my "outside" view on raids (that potential new players probably also have): This game has a lot of stuff where you easily can jump into without prior knowledge or even without farming gear. ArenaNet often advertises the latest story content - that easily can be played with any level 80 char with base exotics and some random build with just some minor tuning maybe. (Might have been different for HoT back then maybe though.)

Now raids need gear. Good builds. And experience. And players create "elitism" - and I can understand that and why it happens. Fractal Rush got me into fractals. (They are short. Not time consuming. Easier to get players into such content by such a "Rush - won't work for raids I guess.) And I myself noticed - only playing at low tier - how it can get annoying when a new player comes and slows you down or makes mistakes. So I can understand the pro raid players.

But it won't help you if you stay amongs yourselves. Imo only the raid community itself can change this - and can help ArenaNet in making more raids by giving them an incentive: More players playing the existing raids.

Couldn't there be big guilds and player run events ... where the pro players still play amongst themselves most of the time. But maybe let's say every now and then some big guilds advertise and help noobs. I mean ... nobody wants the pros to permanently play with noobs. But if a big guild with 200 dedicatd raiders got formed where they once every day make runs/training for noobs and of the pros they take turns to lead/help ... so each pro only has a small amount of time to spent with such for him "annoying" stuff ... could not that work? Would need good organizing though.

If there are 200+ man guilds with tons of noobs and only a few raid pros and all the noobs spamming the few raid pros ... I can understand them getting annoyed. Also the all-rounder guilds that do everything might not help here.

Afaik ArenaNet intended to make strikes to "get people into raiding" and it does not seem to work I think? (Instead raid pros are playing the strikes and using raid kill proof to advertise their strike groups lol.)

You need to keep in mind that it takes time ... especially if the main part of the game is created in a way that everyone (=casuals) can play it and people already complain about the slightest increase in difficulty for certain solo achievements in story and stuff.

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@Luthan.5236 said:But it won't help you if you stay amongs yourselves. Imo only the raid community itself can change thisIt can't. What the raid community can do indeed helps, but only to a very small degree - it doesn't change the major picture. In the end it's still as someone above said: if the average player can't just go into a raid and expect to be successful, they simply aren't going to go.

@paulelle.6813 said:ppl still believe raids are hard and need easy mode :3Yes. They do believe that. And as long as nothing about Raids is going to change, that part won't change either. And as long as that part won't change, raid population will remain as it is - too low for Anet to reconsider their decision to cancel their development.And no amount of joking about that is going to help.

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@paulelle.6813 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:ppl still belive that new raids will appear :3

ppl still believe raids are hard and need easy mode :3

This is inaccurate. People classify it as this, but the reality is many of the raid mechanics aren't hard per se. They just take a certain amount of coordination and/or a particular skill that can't be developed effectively somewhere else (and the cost of missing it could be a wipe). Some people claim WoJ is harder than some raids, but people PuG it all the time. It is the mechanic DESIGN that's the issue, not necessarily the difficulty. In WoJ, there's a lot of individual mechanic pressure on each player, but the whole squad doesn't wipe if 1 person messes up (assuming they're not trying to kill people with the chains, but other players can still dodge).

Though, it is worth noting that without vertical progression to pad difficulty, the devs have to be cognizant of what they're asking players to do and how many players they'll lock out of a piece of content. That's kind of another strong argument for any game mode having a wide variety of difficulties, but higher rewards for better skill.

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The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too challenging of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too challenging of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy. I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, something people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe. Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die. It doesn't matter how or what you dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is something that easily comes to mind. Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg. So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who knows what they're doing. Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination. The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it (and it wan't the active one). We were able to recover, thankfully.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too challenging of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

That doesn't make sense. What I said about raids applies to OW to:

if the average player can't just go into a raid OW and be successful, they simply aren't going to go. I'm just going to throw this out there but I'm willing to bet most people don't play this game to 'improve' so they can 'rise to the level' of hard content. If that was true, this thread wouldn't exist.

We don't need it to be more challenging. Some of what we DO need is mechanics to be shared/similar between raids and everything else so people don't feel like doing a raid is like being in a whole different game.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die throughout the meta.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids. In fact what is "difficult" in your opinion as far as this game goes? Mashing buttons per second? Raw damage a group is receiving? TBH, I feel like anet listens to elite players say this, but I think deep down inside, you guys just want to objectively fail something and experience vertical progression that puts you over the top. If you're a good player and have good gear, you don't fail anything. I've pointed out coordination. How much typing do you want players doing? I just don't know what you want to be satisfied.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

So let me get this straight going back to your OW sentiment, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Except I have, multiple times. Perhaps more than you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I always dodge the telegraphed claw attacks and stay out of bad but somehow manage to get hit by something else on Drak. And I'm fairly certain I remember one of the 3 final world bosses in dragonfall meta having mean damage output. I don't remember if it was add quantity or actual AOE, but I was getting chewed up and my dodge wasn't enough to save me. Also, when attacking the weak spots with lots of adds, if you are not in the zerg, you die.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

I was saying they were difficult to equivocate them to raids, basically stating that they teach coordination, which is the main sticky point as far as raid design goes.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

So you do agree with me that these are real mechanics? They're just not new.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

I'd like you to explain. especially since now you've acknowledged some of these metas were difficult enough to fail at first. What is challenging content as far as OW goes? Because honestly the only mechanic I see missing are these insta-death ones that rely on a few people to execute well.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Except I have, multiple times. Perhaps more than you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I always dodge the telegraphed claw attacks and stay out of bad but somehow manage to get hit by something else on Drak. And I'm fairly certain I remember one of the 3 final world bosses in dragonfall meta having mean damage output. I don't remember if it was add quantity or actual AOE, but I was getting chewed up and my dodge wasn't enough to save me. Also, when attacking the weak spots with lots of adds, if you are not in the zerg, you die.

Without actually seeing you play then I can't really comment further. I'm done all three of those champions in berserkers without dying and didn't have an issue with Drak. I can't remember how my movements were for Drak but the primary reason that people get downed is because of the foot slam.

Doing anything solo that's scaled up will cause you to die. That in no way means that the meta is difficult.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

I was saying they were difficult to equivocate them to raids, basically stating that they teach coordination, which is the main sticky point as far as raid design goes.

That doesn't make sense with what you were saying before but ok.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

So you do agree with me that these are real mechanics? They're just not new.

That's not the point of the discussion so I'm not going to respond either way.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

I'd like you to explain. especially since now you've acknowledged some of these metas were difficult enough to fail at first. What is challenging content as far as OW goes? Because honestly the only mechanic I see missing are these insta-death ones that rely on a few people to execute well.

There really isn't anything in OW that is challenging. Almost every challenge in the OW can be overcome with bringing in more players.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Except I have, multiple times. Perhaps more than you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I always dodge the telegraphed claw attacks and stay out of bad but somehow manage to get hit by something else on Drak. And I'm fairly certain I remember one of the 3 final world bosses in dragonfall meta having mean damage output. I don't remember if it was add quantity or actual AOE, but I was getting chewed up and my dodge wasn't enough to save me. Also, when attacking the weak spots with lots of adds, if you are not in the zerg, you die.

Without actually seeing you play then I can't really comment further. I'm done all three of those champions in berserkers without dying and didn't have an issue with Drak. I can't remember how my movements were for Drak but the primary reason that people get downed is because of the foot slam.

This doesn't disprove what I said that it requires support. I never said it couldnt be done in glass cannon, I'm saying the metas are increasingly requiring healing just to keep people up.

Doing anything solo that's scaled up will cause you to die. That in no way means that the meta is difficult.

Except I didn't say solo. I said get out of zerg, there's a difference.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

I was saying they were difficult to equivocate them to raids, basically stating that they teach coordination, which is the main sticky point as far as raid design goes.

That doesn't make sense with what you were saying before but ok.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. If you didn't notice from my OP, I never asked anything to be downscaled. The only thing I've challenged is raid mechanic design, calling it out for not being puggable. I think if they removed and/or altered some of the obnoxious mechanics I've mentioned and called the raids a beginner friendly version, then they'd be puggable, even if individual player effort was even a little higher. Some strikes have boss HP pools comparable to raid boss ones.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

So you do agree with me that these are real mechanics? They're just not new.

That's not the point of the discussion so I'm not going to respond either way.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

I'd like you to explain. especially since now you've acknowledged some of these metas were difficult enough to fail at first. What is challenging content as far as OW goes? Because honestly the only mechanic I see missing are these insta-death ones that rely on a few people to execute well.

There really isn't anything in OW that is challenging. Almost every challenge in the OW can be overcome with bringing in more players.

But we already have both stated that coordination is involved in particular metas. I'm having difficulty understanding this in context, but okay. I still am waiting to hear what new mechanic or design you want.

I've just been noticing metas getting more and more punishing. I'd be really curious to see a full north drizzlewood meta that didn't devolve into a constant corpse run/rez fest if everyone is in viper's or zerkers, especially on the final boss. And to me, that's broken in the context of what this game was originally envisioned to be.

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@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Except I have, multiple times. Perhaps more than you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I always dodge the telegraphed claw attacks and stay out of bad but somehow manage to get hit by something else on Drak. And I'm fairly certain I remember one of the 3 final world bosses in dragonfall meta having mean damage output. I don't remember if it was add quantity or actual AOE, but I was getting chewed up and my dodge wasn't enough to save me. Also, when attacking the weak spots with lots of adds, if you are not in the zerg, you die.

Without actually seeing you play then I can't really comment further. I'm done all three of those champions in berserkers without dying and didn't have an issue with Drak. I can't remember how my movements were for Drak but the primary reason that people get downed is because of the foot slam.

This doesn't disprove what I said that it requires support. I never said it couldnt be done in glass cannon, I'm saying the metas are increasingly requiring healing just to keep people up.

Doing anything solo that's scaled up will cause you to die. That in no way means that the meta is difficult.

Except I didn't say solo. I said get out of zerg, there's a difference.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

I was saying they were difficult to equivocate them to raids, basically stating that they teach coordination, which is the main sticky point as far as raid design goes.

That doesn't make sense with what you were saying before but ok.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. If you didn't notice from my OP, I never asked anything to be downscaled. The only thing I've challenged is raid mechanic design, calling it out for not being puggable. I think if they removed and/or altered some of the obnoxious mechanics I've mentioned and called the raids a beginner friendly version, then they'd be puggable, even if individual player effort was even a little higher. Some strikes have boss HP pools comparable to raid boss ones.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

So you do agree with me that these are real mechanics? They're just not new.

That's not the point of the discussion so I'm not going to respond either way.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

I'd like you to explain. especially since now you've acknowledged some of these metas were difficult enough to fail at first. What is challenging content as far as OW goes? Because honestly the only mechanic I see missing are these insta-death ones that rely on a few people to execute well.

There really isn't anything in OW that is challenging. Almost every challenge in the OW can be overcome with bringing in more players.

But we already have both stated that coordination is involved in particular metas. I'm having difficulty understanding this in context, but okay. I still am waiting to hear what new mechanic or design you want.

I've just been noticing metas getting more and more punishing. I'd be really curious to see a full north drizzlewood meta that didn't devolve into a constant corpse run/rez fest if everyone is in viper's or zerkers, especially on the final boss. And to me, that's broken in the context of what this game was originally envisioned to be.

This is being drawn out further from what my post was about.

Open world content is not challenging. This is because there's very little that relies on the individual player and quite often just bringing more players is the solution. Death really isn't much of a penalty as you can just quickly WP and come back. If you get downed, you have 30+ people who can rez you. This is completely different from what's required of the player in raids as well as the success of the raid.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:The following:

  1. Make raids able to be done WITHOUT people training for them. Any notion people need to train for raids is 100% absurd. HOW? Raid mechanics need to be more familiar with all players in the game. Anet can do things like add raid mechanics to content people encounter more regularly, make those mechanics less punishing in those regular encounters and make the rewards of those encounters depend on how well people perform with those mechanics.

green circle = good must go inare present outside of raids eg: sirene reef, drakkar, whisper of jormag. pretty sure its also present in personnal story too

red = badare present like everywhere

shockwave = jump over itare present at tequatl, drakkar, franir, icebrood construct, vabbian fractal, i guess in some personal story instances too

the boss get a second bar below its hp = use CCsit's everywhere and yet players rely on electromagnetic pulse which is quite funny as they could do way more cc just by using their class cc.

and with that you know well over 75% of raid mechs.

but i disagree less punishing will make them ignored as it is in world boss/personnal story... best way would be to increase the strengh of mechs in personnal story/world boss so players cannot hide behind memestrel (or whatever other meme stats) and actually start to use w a s d.

  1. Make people aware of what mechanics they will encounter during the raid ... basically give players LITERAL warnings, prompts, etc ... so they know when to do things, where to go, what NOT to do, etc ...

An advanturer book alike wow would be nice and gives new player sothing to read during downtime. But not a DBM thing, it just ruins the fun

  1. Make those prompts an option based on an player game option.

Yes, basically, hold people's hands while doing raids ... and before you kitten on the idea, ask yourself if you want more raids or not?

from what you said or at least if you want to tune raids down to the average player skills it wouldn't be a raid anymore but another personnal story like we had from start until IBS ep 4.you'd be better off tuning up the difficulty in personnal story so players have to better themself to finish it, which is way more interesting than getting skins that you'll never use for 1k gold and increase the length of content as player may have to play 20 times a story combat to get it right.

If Anet addresses the ease that players can participate in raids at their leisure and be successful, any argument they can't find 9 people to raid dissolves.

not filling already isn't an argument. advertise your group with /m in lion arch and you will fill pretty fast. But it will be messy because of the players running innapropriate stats, not knowing their class, and on top of that having no clue what mechs are when they are all around them all the time.

Bottomline: if the average player can't just go into a raid and be successful, they simply aren't going to go.

Teach them how to play, give players interesting content in personnal story, increase personnal story diffuculty. After they get killed couple of time by a red circle/shockwave people will start to move out/jump/dodge, after they die by not being in a green circle a few time they will start to go in it, after the realise they can't damage a boss at all when there is a cc up the'll start to use their ccs.ofc it doesn't have to be a raid pace, i'd say addin 2/3sec more time to think and no moverlaping between mecs in personnal story compare to raid should do it but mechs damage should be as high as in raid if not increased to avoid skipping mechs. Teaching the players how to play is the way to go and they might start to realise if you do things well running toughness or vitality gears are wasting stats.

its quite sad to see that games just remove any difficulty to feed their players a sanitized content. Ofc not all players can react straight away at the same speed at start but would be better to offer various content that gradually fasten the combat so players have a progression instead of the currently offered: "just afk in memestrel" to a "do mechs and fast else bye bye".if you create a red/green circle/shockwave that oneshot the player then you could use it multiple time:personnal story: 8sec to go in/out/jump/dodge else RIPdungeon: 6sec to go in/out/jump/dodge else RIPstrike: 4sec to go in/out/jump/dodge else RIPraid: 2sec to go in/out/jump/dodge else RIP

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The issue is that they stopped adding increasingly challenging encounters in the open world and we're left with a population that knows nothing but how to zerg up, eat enemy attacks, and attack bosses with their auto attacks (or just skill mashing). Any time some form of challenge was added, there was complaints. There were complaints about every one of the episode end bosses of LS2 having too
challenging
of mechanics . There are players who struggle with HoT and PoF open world. The skill level of players in the game is very wide, and with having much of the game catered to those on the lower end, this has stifled any reason for players to improve.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I wouldn't call TP south meta easy.

It is easy. Players zerg up and then gradually split into three groups. No different than other maps metas like in HoT. The only difficulty of that fight is the hydra and that difficulty is marginal at best and especially if you keep it away from what you're defending.

I would also claim CA is less technically challenging than WoJ, somethnig people pug all the time, it's just that if you don't have 2 people that use swords/shields right and/or don't collect them properly you wipe.

What does one of the easier raid encounters have to do with what I said?

Alot of the newer metas are so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die.

Such as?

It doesn't matter how what dodge, you'll get hit by something once you're out of endurance. Drakkar is someting that easily comes to mind.

Drakkar doesn't require constant dodging. You only "need" to dodge specific attacks but even then that doesn't matter because of the zerg mentality that I spoke of where you can just rely on others to rez you.

I disagree. And this happens in Dragonfall as well. There's so much AOE if you aren't next to something healing and/or blocking you die.

Which new metas are "so punishing that if you don't have enough supports around you die"?

There isn't. If you played that meta, you'd see that what you're describing isn't an issue.

Except I have, multiple times. Perhaps more than you, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I always dodge the telegraphed claw attacks and stay out of bad but somehow manage to get hit by something else on Drak. And I'm fairly certain I remember one of the 3 final world bosses in dragonfall meta having mean damage output. I don't remember if it was add quantity or actual AOE, but I was getting chewed up and my dodge wasn't enough to save me. Also, when attacking the weak spots with lots of adds, if you are not in the zerg, you die.

Without actually seeing you play then I can't really comment further. I'm done all three of those champions in berserkers without dying and didn't have an issue with Drak. I can't remember how my movements were for Drak but the primary reason that people get downed is because of the foot slam.

This doesn't disprove what I said that it requires support. I never said it couldnt be done in glass cannon, I'm saying the metas are increasingly requiring healing just to keep people up.

Doing anything solo that's scaled up will cause you to die. That in no way means that the meta is difficult.

Except I didn't say solo. I said get out of zerg, there's a difference.

Tp south meta is also very challenging. It can be failed with a full zerg.

This is because you drag the hydra to the objective and it takes too much damage. The damage the hydra does scales up with the number of players. The south TP meta is not difficult at all.

Well neither are raids.

If you feel that raids are not difficult then why are you talking about all of these open world map metas being difficult under uncommon what if scenarios?

I was saying they were difficult to equivocate them to raids, basically stating that they teach coordination, which is the main sticky point as far as raid design goes.

That doesn't make sense with what you were saying before but ok.

Perhaps you're misunderstanding me. If you didn't notice from my OP, I never asked anything to be downscaled. The only thing I've challenged is raid mechanic design, calling it out for not being puggable. I think if they removed and/or altered some of the obnoxious mechanics I've mentioned and called the raids a beginner friendly version, then they'd be puggable, even if individual player effort was even a little higher. Some strikes have boss HP pools comparable to raid boss ones.

So can Drakkar if people don't coordinate portals and/or you don't have mes who know what they're doing.

And yet players are able to. AB can fail if players don't do the mechanics and time the kills properly and yet they succeed. DS can fail if people don't kill the vinetenders in time as was what happened around when HoT launched. "What ifs" doesn't mean that something is difficult.

Also, Dragonfall is another meta easily failable without coordination.

No different than AB.

The difference as I've noted earlier is raids often require discord level coordination.

Not really. It's helpful for call outs as reminders but those that know the mechanics don't need it.

But how do you get to that point? By training with people over disc. That's the problem. If it was something that could just be done intuitively in a PuG I don't think it'd be an issue.

Discord is only easier because it's easier to speak than to type. All of those map metas in HoT failed often at launch. So no, they weren't intuitive until some players figured out how to do them and then taught players through map chat. Generally there are enough players that it's difficult for inexperienced players to cause a fail unless you're on an overflow with low population.

So you do agree with me that these are real mechanics? They're just not new.

That's not the point of the discussion so I'm not going to respond either way.

In fact I had a troll mes try to fail us once, they camped in one of the intermediate champion locations on Drak and intentionally ported my squad to it. We were able to recover, thankfully.

Troll players can potentially cause fails although it's rather difficult. This doesn't matter in regards to a meta being difficult.

So let me get this straight, you want our metas to pick 2 players, assign them a task and if they fail it, everyone dies and you fail the entire 30-minute long meta? Because that's essentially how many raid mechanics work. Except the players are often self-selected but I think that'd be even worse.

Please don't twist what I said.

I'd like you to explain. especially since now you've acknowledged some of these metas were difficult enough to fail at first. What is challenging content as far as OW goes? Because honestly the only mechanic I see missing are these insta-death ones that rely on a few people to execute well.

There really isn't anything in OW that is challenging. Almost every challenge in the OW can be overcome with bringing in more players.

But we already have both stated that coordination is involved in particular metas. I'm having difficulty understanding this in context, but okay. I still am waiting to hear what new mechanic or design you want.

I've just been noticing metas getting more and more punishing. I'd be really curious to see a full north drizzlewood meta that didn't devolve into a constant corpse run/rez fest if everyone is in viper's or zerkers, especially on the final boss. And to me, that's broken in the context of what this game was originally envisioned to be.

This is being drawn out further from what my post was about.

Open world content is not challenging. This is because there's very little that relies on the individual player and quite often just bringing more players is the solution. Death really isn't much of a penalty as you can just quickly WP and come back. If you get downed, you have 30+ people who can rez you. This is completely different from what's required of the player in raids as well as the success of the raid.

Your post erroneously claims zerging wins everything, then we talked about examples where that's not true, and you're still saying that. Like sure, that's one element that makes it easier than a raid, but it's not just zerging as many events have constraints and this is something we've both established in the past. I really was curious what you wanted to see in OW content because I feel like Anet keeps listening to people whine like this, so I'd like some quantification as to improvements because I don't think their listening has improved OW content either.

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