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EoD expansion should have new RAID


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@"Asum.4960" said:If we look at the amount of Raiders just registered on GW2E (let's say 150 LI+), check the amount of devs that worked on the Raid team at any given time, and then reference their salary on something like Glassdoor, we get to a point where the average Raider (just registered on GW2E) would have to spend about >6$ per year extra because of Raids, to make Raids profitable.First, we don't know how much extra an average person on that list spends due to raids. Many raiders i knew didn't spend a dime actually - not just extra, but just nothing at all. And while i am on that 150+ LI list too, it actually caused me to spend less than i used to before.Second, notice how the amount of resources Anet dedicated to Raids (which at that point might have made them indeed profitable) was nowhere close to be able to sustain those raids. By the time Anet cancelled their development, i bet many of the players on that list weren;t raiding anymore (or, in a lot of cases, not even playing anymore).BTW: Out of curiosity, how were the numbers calculated? Do you actually know how high was the raid dev team salary then? Or did you take an average dev salary, which was definitely lower than that (no, not every dev earns the same - those with more desirable specialties/those harder to replace earn more)?

That Raids weren't profitable, or even burning a huge hole into Anet's pockets, with how little resources/devs they put into them, is imo extremely unlikely.See above. Initially they were willing to spend some resources on raids - it's just Raiders wanted them to spend way more. And this they apparently couldn't afford

Let alone measuring the increased engagement, marketing and visibility that things like Raid events , tournaments general Streams etc. offered, being not only the highest, but pretty much only large scaled viewed GW2 content with a possibility to ride the algorithm to appear to and peak the interest of not yet GW2 players.You do realize that those "large scaled viewed content", while indeed largest out of all GW2 stuff, were "large scaled" only in that GW2 context, but in reality were small-sized and quite unimportant?

Why was all this and much more cancelled then?Because Raiders wanted Anet to devote to raids way more resources than Anet was willing to offer, and weren't willing to be satisfied with what Anet felt comfortable with. So, at one point they decided to just fold.

The question with that is not if hardcore content, like Raids for example, has merit to be continued. The question is, does Anet really want to go back to GW2 and grow it again, in which case it needs that sort of content to grow and keep a bigger audience for the long term again, or are they just buying some more time again for the remaining other project - it which case it likely will be just more once and done Story/OW, which will hopefully be enough time for them to finish up and release that something else.Notice, that, as @Obtena.7952 mentioned, if they just went back with raids to their original release mode (with a new wing every 9+ months), nothing would change, and Raids would not be revived. In order to do that they would have been willing to invest massively more into them than before. And that while they have far less resources now to go around than they had then. One Raid with new expansion is not going to change anything, so why bother at all?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

The training guilds piggiback the participation iin HoT till at this moment .The lack of them ,shows what trully happen in LFG in PoF :p

11% people tries once the first of wing 5/6/7 ? that's Neat . That Achentant Ring really boosted the numbers :PWar Eternal 46% , The Key of Ahdashim 7% (end boss wing 7) (-easiest than the 5/6) ,is the juicy part .

Then the company why they release the Wing 7 at June 2019 , and made a statement at Jan-February of 2020 , that they want to release more Raids , but few play them ? Maybe it was a mistake ? Maybe they have different data ?

(circular conversations . Lets try to create a new Raidv2 ,otherwise lets move with sclaable DRM and "mote" dificulty that you must do 26k dps or 31k with 2 healers .The 2015 plan didn;t work . People wanted to escape from WoW . They keep reminding them , the thing they avoided)

(Edit: How 315k accounts have the 50% gametime of the game ?What about the 3,5 million accounts fro the Core Launch or my account tat is no linked ?If more people had linked their account , there wouldnt be a need for KP + linking their gear on chat , because you could inspect some1 else accounts on your moibile ,before inviting him (Same as Library in WoW -guess why i dont link my account:P))

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@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:11% people tries once the first of wing 5/6/7 ? that's Neat . That Achentant Ring really boosted the numbers :PWar Eternal 46% , The Key of Ahdashim 7% (end boss wing 7) (-easiest than the 5/6) ,is the juicy part .

7% is 15% of 46%, is 15% a "small audience"? I don't really think so. Also, 30%/20%/26%, the rates of the first boss of each of the initial Wings were 46%/31%/40% of those that finished Heart of Thorns. This does tell us that a stable release cadence can have a positive effect on participation. And a healthy reward. Both things that POF Raids were missing.

Then the company why they release the Wing 7 at June 2019 , and made a statement at Jan-February of 2020 , that they want to release more Raids , but few play them ? Maybe it was a mistake ? Maybe they have different data ?

Oh yes, that post about "the audience they attract". In my above calculation I compared Raid participation (a few hours) to story completion (a couple of minutes). Let's make a more valid comparison shall we?

! The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49% / 16%! Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%!! Daybreak: 61% / 52% / 12%! Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%!! A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44% / 9%! Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%!! War Eternal: 49% / 46% / 5%! The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%!In bold the meta achievement (mastery) completion rates of all the relevant episodes. Look at that War Eternal completion. Talking about the audience something attracts.

_(Edit: How 315k accounts have the 50% gametime of the game ?

Arenanet released an infographic in August 2018.

In the infographic they tell us that the game reached 11000000 accounts and 119431.07 years in total playtime. Those years translate into 1,046,216,173.2 hours. Simple division gives us that the average Guild Wars 2 player has 95 hours of playtime. Yep, it's THAT low. So anyone using the "average" for any kind of comparison needs to take into account that the "average" barely started playing.

Now I searched and found this bad boy:

! fcLl7nC.pngIt's gw2efficiency data from November 2019. Now that's a bit over a year after Arenanet's post, but it's the earliest I could find.

We see a total of 548,129,625 hours (51% of what Arenanet told us is the total) out of 244,074 accounts, which gives us 2,245.7 hours per account. Compare that with the game's average of 95 and you can see the difference in activity between the average GW2 player and the average gw2efficiency user. We are talking about players who barely touch the game compared to players who live inside it. Now who is the most important to create content for?

Edit. and it gets better. The 95 hour average includes gw2efficiency accounts. So let's remove those 244k accounts and their 548 million playtime. The result (the non-gw2efficiency accounts) are 10756000 with 498,086,548 hours of playtime, or in total, the non-gw2efficiency accounts have an average of 46 hours! Much WOW

Edit 2: tl;dr1 Raid participation, even at its lowest, was still 15% of those that finished the relevant episode.2 Comparing "those that Raid" vs "those that do not Raid" is unfair because it assumes those that do not Raid do everything else, which is obviously false, comparing Raid participation with something else, like the above mastery completions gives us better comparisons3 The average GW2 player has a playtime (total) of 95 hours. The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours. Draw your own conclusions based on that

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

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If only some communication would be there about the state of raids, if we ever get them in the future or if they are dead for good, to clear things up. Since they never said they wont release them anymore, and also said there is possibility of new raids in the future (more similar to w1-3 difficulty). Same happened to fractals till we got Sunqua. A Cantha themed raid would be cool as well with the new expansion like others have proposed here

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@"Vayne.8563" said:Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

Of course I'm talking about dedicated players, those are the one that make this game work and feel populated, not those that log once a week for 5 minutes then log off. To quote myself, the math is on the post above yours

The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours.

Which leads to the next point:

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

No that's not any kind of relevant question. You are once again being unfair here, comparing "Those who Raid" vs "those who don't". The good question is how many players completed Raids vs those that completed XYZ. For example, in my earlier post I compared the Raid completions with story completions and living world meta achievement completions, those matter. And watching the War Eternal mastery completion being lower than Wing 7 final boss completion is very telling.

Those "casuals" you asked and didn't even know what gw2efficiency is, do they run Fractals often? Do they complete episode meta achievements? Do they run jumping puzzles? Do they finish weapon/armor collections? Do they craft Legendary Weapons? Those are the actual valid questions when comparing to those who are raiding, not how many Raid vs how many don't Raid. And I'm quite confident that the average casual player of this game doesn't do any of the above, otherwise 70% of this game's accounts wouldn't have under 600 AP. Yet that they don't run Raids is somehow a problem

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@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:But the 7% that did complete the Wing 7 , ONCE in their lifetime , is a lit smaller than the 46%

Yes that's how math works, but what story completions show, is how many players were still connected to the game when that Raid wing launched. Because it does take only a few minutes to complete the story. Which is why the percentage of completions is what is important and not the actual numbers, meaning, as I said 15%.

But i really wonder , how many casuals are repeating the maps for the rewards (till they over farmed it and get reduced) and still Replay Fractals, and how many times per week people actual play the Raids .

Not many for sure. Given how 70% of accounts in this game have less than 600 AP, it's mathematically impossible for the majority of the playerbase (these casuals) to have ever played any of that, even once in their life.

And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well. Yet for some reason the "problem" discussed is how many did or didn't do Raids, as if those that don't Raid, do everything else. Which is factually false.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:But the 7% that did complete the Wing 7 , ONCE in their lifetime , is a lit smaller than the 46%

Yes that's how math works, but what story completions show, is how many players were still connected to the game when that Raid wing launched. Because it does take only a few minutes to complete the story. Which is why the percentage of completions is what is important and not the actual numbers, meaning, as I said 15%.

But i really wonder , how many casuals are repeating the maps for the rewards (till they over farmed it and get reduced) and still Replay Fractals, and how many times per week people actual play the Raids .

Not many for sure. Given how 70% of accounts in this game have less than 600 AP, it's mathematically impossible for the majority of the playerbase (these casuals) to have ever played any of that, even once in their life.

And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well. Yet for some reason the "problem" discussed is how many did or didn't do Raids, as if those that don't Raid, do everything else. Which is factually false.

When the Wing 7 Raid was launched , it was Kryz or Asum , that where saying that it failed and had 2,8% participation (Wing 5 had 5-6% at that time ) , because it was easy for the Pros and Hard for the casuals ?

Again the company has its data . You cannot tell me that they pulled back 5 employees and stop the Raid production , just to troll the community .If there wasnt something wrong in that 6 month particiapation , than they would offer Wing 8 with even less Dificulty :P

Again that math/stats Guy ,either he didnt have his glasses on , or had toomany drinks , or he doesnt have Asian DNA :P

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:When the Wing 7 Raid was launched , it was Kryz or Asum , that where saying that it failed and had 2,8% participation (Wing 5 had 5-6% at that time ) , because it was easy for the Pros and Hard for the casuals ?

Again the company has its data . You cannot tell me that they pulled back 5 employees and stop the Raid production , just to troll the community .If there wasnt something wrong in that 6 month particiapation , than they would offer Wing 8 with even less Dificulty :P

Again that math/stats Guy ,either he didnt have his glasses on , or had toomany drinks , or he doesnt have Asian DNA :PI only argued that W7 CMs were too easy (which they are).

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@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:Again the company has its data .

Yes and they told us that their data shows that the most common reason for players to not run Raids is because there is no content to bridge Raids with the rest of the game. Really excluding Fractals CM for example, because anyone running Fractal CMs shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in Raids. And even simply running Fractal T4s is more than enough for a lot of the Raid bosses. Let me just challenge that idea that there is no "bridge" for Raids. Siege the Stronghold (Escort), Cairn and Vale Guardian are adequate "bridges", maybe they should advertise them as such, instead of adding new content.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:Again the company has its data .

Yes and they told us that their data shows that the most common reason for players to not run Raids is because there is no content to bridge Raids with the rest of the game. Really excluding Fractals CM for example, because anyone running Fractal CMs shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in Raids. And even simply running Fractal T4s is more than enough for a lot of the Raid bosses. Let me just challenge that idea that there is no "bridge" for Raids. Siege the Stronghold (Escort), Cairn and Vale Guardian are adequate "bridges", maybe they should advertise them as such, instead of adding new content.

The problem with fractals as a bridge for me is that they are a good bridge fir everyone already invested, if you dont dk fractals they are kind intimidating with the climb and building ar.

I think honestly strikes and drms are great stepping stones into fractals and raids because they introduce the idea of instanced group content right after the story to ppl that normally play lw without any major gates or requirements, other than owning lw and expacs that is.

The gw2 playerbase before they learn mechanics need to be introduced into the idea of group content and remaking story into group content is a seemingly cheap way to do just that.

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@Vilin.8056 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

Of course I'm talking about dedicated players, those are the one that make this game work and feel populated, not those that log once a week for 5 minutes then log off. To quote myself, the math is on the post above yours

The average gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 2246 hours. The average non-gw2efficiency player has a playtime of 46 hours.

Which leads to the next point:

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.

No that's not any kind of relevant question. You are once again being unfair here, comparing "Those who Raid" vs "those who don't". The good question is how many players completed Raids vs those that completed XYZ. For example, in my earlier post I compared the Raid completions with story completions and living world meta achievement completions, those matter. And watching the War Eternal mastery completion being lower than Wing 7 final boss completion is very telling.

Those "casuals" you asked and didn't even know what gw2efficiency is, do they run Fractals often? Do they complete episode meta achievements? Do they run jumping puzzles? Do they finish weapon/armor collections? Do they craft Legendary Weapons? Those are the actual valid questions when comparing to those who are raiding, not how many Raid vs how many don't Raid. And I'm quite confident that the average casual player of this game doesn't do any of the above, otherwise 70% of this game's accounts wouldn't have under 600 AP. Yet that they don't run Raids is somehow a problem

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

And if that 244,074 accounts hold the half time of the player base , and only 7% completed the Wing 7 end boss ,then it means that 17.000 did that Raid.Yes, and only 17000 finished the War Eternal meta achievement as well.The difference is that you compare single kill of a raid boss with achievement that requires many, many hours of completing multiple other achievements, and doing map metas over and over again. To make the comparison fair, you would have to compare it with
Passport to Ahdashim
, which has a completion of 7,299 of 295,027 (2.474%) [Notice: for some reason it shows to me higher number of total gw2eff accounts than it shows to you, which might make my result percentage a little lower].

Which, frankly, doesn't change the fact that both those groups of players are relatively small (it just puts those numbers in proper context). Which is hardly surprising - achievement completionists are in a way as niche as raiders.

Unfortunately the achievements are a bad way of tracking continued activities. You know who finished story or specific achievements, but you have no idea how many players spend how many time on that map. You know how many players killed a boss once, but you have no idea how many of them continued to do that after that initial kill (and for how long, or how often). And those numbers in both cases are very important. For Anet, players that do the content once and never repeat it are way less important than those that will continue playing in it.

Edit: come to think, while it's not possible to track activity within a specific wing, we can sort of track activity of efficiency players within last 3 wings by looking at LDs.18% of players within 2000-4000 hours range have at least one LD. 10.5% has at least ten (there are 10 bosses in wings 5, 6 and 7). Around 6% has over 50. Below 4% has over 150.For 4000+ range it increases to 31%, 24.5%, 19% and 15%. (with 4% of those players having over 500 LDs)For all efficiency accounts it goes to 12.5%, 7.5%, 5% and 3.5% (with less than 1% having over 500)

To put it in perspective, the top number for LDs on gw2eff is 1324.So, in reality, even among the most engaged part of players registered at efficiency (that is already shifted towards players with most engagement, plkaytime, and hardcore approach to gaming), 70% never even tried any of the post-PoF wings, with the next 15% going for either single kill or ring, and stopping there. Only 15% of those accounts (and only 3.5% of all gw2eff ones) raided a bit more, with only 4% of them (less than 1% of all) being truly dedicated to the content.

We of course can't know how those numbers look across the 3 wings, but i think we can safely assume (even considering the time factor alone) they were not uniformly obtained, with earlier raids being a bigger source, and thus the actual relative activity levels in wing 7 were significantly smaller than that.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

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@Vilin.8056 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

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@Vilin.8056 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

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@Vilin.8056 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

You're picking weapons from all over the place.

Since when does a casual oriented MMO economic website represent the population of the hardcore community?

In your logic, if 70% of the player base do not even play past 700 AP, Anet don't even need Living Story content at all as it only catering less than 1/3 of the population, and simply only need to stay core Tyria with trading post features to maintain the casual playerbase.

Neither represent a valid statement.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:The difference is that you compare single kill of a raid boss with achievement that requires many, many hours of completing multiple other achievements, and doing map metas over and over again.

Of course, I merely gave an example because I'm sick and tired of the argument "those that Raid" vs "those that don't Raid". As if those that don't Raid, do everything else offered in the game equally.

It's also to finally avoid arguments like this:

@"Vayne.8563" said:The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.

Yes most people might be in the open world. What they do in the open world is the question because the open world is not a unified experience.

Edit: come to think, while it's not possible to track activity within a specific wing, we can sort of track activity of efficiency players within last 3 wings by looking at LDs.

That doesn't prove anything about Raid popularity/participation, but about POF Raid participation.HOT:01rWutx.pngPOF:opWxaxY.png

50% of the accounts above 4000h have on average 16 LI. 20% of the same bracket have 36 LD. This does tell us of how much POF Raids failed.

My own experience has been like that too. HOT Raids have a much better reward (Legendary Armor) and I've been re-running them to offer that reward to newer players, especially when POF launched and many came back. To this day I haven't run Wing 7 once. To continue with my personal experience, I enjoy Raids that have clearly defined phases and escalated mechanics, something that HOT Raids used properly, while POF Raids did not do it as well. It's also why I don't like Slothasor, it's a fight which barely changes over time. Meanwhile, Vale Guardian, Matthias, Xera, Deimos are some of my favorite Raid bosses.

For Anet, players that do the content once and never repeat it are way less important than those that will continue playing in it.

Agreed. And Mike Z even said that they are going to put more emphasis on repeatable content because having unique assets and mechanics in a story instance that players play only once (or even not once) is a total waste of resources.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

  • And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community

Well it's a very good sample, at least when it comes to activity. gw2efficiency accounts on average have 2100 hours of playtime. While the global average (official) is about 95 hours, or at least it was in August 2018, but I doubt much changed since then. The difference is overwhelming. So, although gw2efficiency accounts are "only" 314688 accounts, which is a small number of accounts compared to the total, they do contain about 50% of this game's global actual playtime.Meaning where that "sample" spends their time, is where the game does.

Ok .... and how many did wing 5/6/7 ?PvE 60% ? Raid 4% ?

Well let's have a look at the Raid completion rates, although using only Wing 5/6/7 when the release cadence was already so abysmal isn't a very good idea. So looking at the earlier Raids, when the cadence was more stable is better:

I will use the same system as the living world episodes, first boss and last boss, to compete with first instance and last instance.Heart of Thorns: 91% / 65%Spirit Vale: 30% / 21%Salvation Pass: 20% / 18%Stronghold of the Faithful: 26% / 15%Considering only 65% finished HOT, those Raid kill numbers aren't half bad, especially for the first boss.

The Head of the Snake: 57% / 49%Bastion of the Penitent: 25% / 16%Compared to the episode it was released with, Bastion numbers are quite good, half of those that started the episode, killed the first boss.

Daybreak: 61% / 52%Hall of Chains: 11% / 8%This was indeed a tough one.

A Star to Guide Us: 50% / 44%Mythright Gambit: 11% / 7%I think we can see here that the living world lost more players than Raids did, at this point.

War Eternal: 49% / 46%The Key of Ahdashim: 10% / 7%Oddly enough War Eternal didn't experience the same losses over time, but neither did Wing 7, with very similar results, maybe the playerbase finally stabilized at that point. At least until the Icebrood Saga started

Well there you have it. HOT Raids had a vastly superior popularity compared to POF Raids. HOT raid bosses were between 1/3rd and 1/4th of those that finished the respective episodes. POF Raids were closer to 1/5th - 1/6th.

I assume you took these stats from Guild Wars 2 efficiency. My guess is raiders are more likely to list there than more casual players. A lot of people I've talked to don't even know about the site. Let's say, and I'm just picking numbers out of the air, that 20% of the playerbase has a GW2 efficiency account. It would likely be 20% of the most dedicated players.

The question then becomes how much of the population that hasn't registered with efficiency have completed raid wings. I'm guessing that would skew your entire calculation.Quite the opposite, the site is mostly aimed for veteran casuals who has a need to calculate account worth, mats value/hour analysis(for open map farming), TP flipping, botting assistant, and upcoming progress for crafting a full set of ascended equipment's for their characters. The lower raid statistic proves the discrepancy in real world scenarios.

Since hardcore contents usually reward raw gold and free ascended gears of choice, most players who frequent hardcore contents don't usually find these calculations necessary, and is more interested in performance statistics from other sources.

Hardocore flippers are on there. People who make legendaries are on there. Because it's helpful. In fact, most casuals don't come to forums, or reddit or scour the internet for sites, they just sort of log in and play. There are absolutely going to be harder core people on GW 2 efficiency because they spend more time in communities and would have heard of it.

Yet TP flipping is a casual activity, it does not involve the playing skill level of a player.Neither does analyzing craft cost of a legendary weapon require registering an account as it is an one time affair.

This site is mostly useful for players who generate income from materials, therefore find the calculation helpful, instead of raw gold from hardcore contents.

A c;asual player can play a lot. I have people ion my guild who play every day who don't have efficiency accounts, or probably even know what it is. Only the hardest ore people in my guild have attempted raiding and it's a tiny percentage even then.

But to so blithely dismiss those other guys who are at all the meta and world events, who do stuff like the octovine or drizzlewood or the pinata or the anomaly, even if they don't log in every single day, they're also out there making the game feel alive. They don't do it all at the same time of course, nor do they have to.

The hard core population who are sitting in fractals and raids, they necessarily come into the open world as much and don't necessarily make the open world feel more alive, but my guess is most people are in the open world.And how is that you consider TP flippers to be hardcore players while at the same time calling open world farmers who played as frequent to be casual? And how is that hardcore players do not make the game feel alive while casuals do?There is so much discrimination in these statements.

TP flipping is absolutely not casual. It requires an investment in time and money that casual farming doesn't. Most casual players don't flip. Those who flip tend to be very very invested in that activity. They form entire guilds for it. HUGE difference between that and a casual farmer.

Wrong, most investment of time involved in TP flipping does not require player log-ins, and since TP flipping does not require a large amount of gold to begin with, any player who have a moderate amount of gold can immidiately be involved in the activity.And most importantly, it does not require player skill to warrant it as a hardcore activity.

You can believe anything you want. Everyone reading this can decide for themselves if they think more casual players are on GW 2 efficiency or more hard core players.

Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

You are free to believe these are also hardcore players, but clearly for everyone else this suggest otherwise.

Well, if you want to put it that way, then there are so few hard core players in this game that Anet shouldn't even bother catering to them at all. Seems to me, the most casual players don't research outside the game and none of those guys are on efficiency. Also sounds like a lot of alt accounts there to feed mystic coins to people to make legendries. I have ten accounts on efficiency but only one ofthem has a lot of achievement points. The rest of them are feeder accounts. So it would still be the hardest core people with multiple accounts.

But you know, if 5% of the population is hard core, they shouldn't be demanding new hard core content.

GW2efficiency is a bad example to look at, I am not even using it and like, who even uses it? People who are interested in legendaries and such..so nothing to do with hardcore raiders

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@"Vilin.8056" said:Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

Um, excuse me but no. What did I just read.

Take a look at this screenshot from the official leaderboardsnZwBL8N.pngSo 80% of this game's accounts (not gw2efficiency) have lower than about 1150 AP. Which is the mid point between those two, the exact number is not known with my limited friend/guild list but if more people check theirs we might find the correct answer. Still 80% of ACCOUNTS have under 1147 AP (which is the number a player at 70% has)

As for gw2efficiency, you can see here:615Vf3v.pngthe majority of accounts (62%) have the Respected Achiever title, which is awarded at 5k AP. Unfortunately there is no way to tell how many gw2efficiency users are between 1150 and 5000, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of gw2efficiency accounts is somewhere in that bracket and very few are under it.

Edit: because I've used the "70% of accounts have under 600 AP" before, I was talking about the entire game, not gw2efficiency, if the most dedicated (note the word) players had under 1k AP then the game would be dead at this point.

Edit2: as for the argument of which type of player has a gw2efficiency account, those that play as much of this game as possible. As a matter of fact, 566 gw2efficiency accounts have the Furious Achiever title which is awarded at 40k AP. There are 185 accounts in NA at 40k+ and 488 in EU, 673 total, or 84% of those above 40k AP have a gw2efficiency account.

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