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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?


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Add a easy mode, make cms more intricate to please that crowd and fix the cadense, once a year isnt sustainable, we should be getting at least 2 a year (2 3or4 encounter wings that is).

Also keep up with drms esque content and strikes, they normalise group content in the casual playerbase which is one of the bigger issue with the playerbase, its not necessarily the dificulty its mostly that many ppl dont do group content for whatever reason.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

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@"Firebeard.1746" said:

You're on to something here. It's not just hand-holding. It's how this game is built and its original player base vs how raids operate. It was designed to be something that you can just visit as you have time on just about any aspect. The raids, however, have mechanics that require disc and/or special muscle memory, i.e. players must learn certain skills in order to not wipe their squad, or must communicate effectively in real time. It's also very common that there's at least 1 mechanic that puts heavy pressure on one player, and if that player fails, everyone dies (W5 pusher, hand kite, shields, VG orbs (often dealt with by Druid)). That pretty much rules out it being an activity that you can just visit as you have time -> if you try pugging, you can keep failing, through no fault of your own if enough of your team mates don't have it down. So, you must build a static of people to work with so hopefully they'll get it over time and you won't waste your time every time you step into the same boss. Otherwise, it's wiping over and over on a new set of randos. This also means, YOU MUST SHOW UP EVERY WEEK if you don't want to lose your spot. That destroys some of the core design principles of this game.

I agree that raids inherently run counter to 'core design principles' of the game at large, particularly the "just show up to stuff that is happening" aspect of the game.

Unfortunately for raiding and GW2, I think there is no smart way to bridge the gap. Raids will either have to be watered down so as to lose meaning as the highest tier of challenging pve encounter, or other no-barriers-to-entry encounters will have to get substantially more challenging. One might suggest, as you and others have, that doing the latter is feasible; just add Difficult Thing X to this encounter, and Slightly Demanding Thing Y to that encounter, and soon enough the game will have provided enough steadily ramped-up challenge so the typical level 80 has much better exposure to said challenges.

I would counter that there is something especially regressive and entrenched about the GW2 playerbase. To this day, so many people cannot do HPs in HoT and PoF without a train. To this day, people are making threads about the expansion areas being too hard to enjoy. Power creep has advanced to a point where I can solo just about every explorable dungeon in reasonable time, and others can do CM fractals on their own as well. I'm not saying that the typical player needs to be able to reach that level of proficiency, but simply that a huge proportion of players are falling extremely short of their characters' potential despite having so many tools to do better. Therefore I do not think there is a way to insert meaningfully increased challenges across the board, given how poorly many players are content to play this game. I think most people will just stop playing things that kill them, rather than push themselves to improve. There are, of course, players that will push themselves to improve, but they're also the ones who can already get into raiding via the many resources currently available.

The thing is, GW2 has been designed to be very forgiving to that kind of player, and I happen to think that's what makes GW2 unique and worthwhile among its competitors. GW2 has never been about needing to do The Right Thing at The Right Time, but for any content to be meaningfully more difficult, it can't be as non-demanding as the core game here is.

So either ANet (1) betrays the fundamental design of the game by adding in stuff that you can't just walk into unprepared and unskilled, or (2) betrays the fundamental design of raids by making them less than the promised pinnacle of pve challenge they were meant to be. I can really see why ANet has chosen to not really engage with raids at all these days, given those options.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

No criticism here though. It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics, and I proposed a solution that doesn't involve creating an easy mode for raids. That's all there is to it really.

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)
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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)

They've been speaking for years now. At this point I can only assume that you are here to troll are just love being argumentative for the sake of it, but either way you aren't contributing anything of substance to this conversation at this point. If you want to hide under a rock and ignore the world around you, have fun with that, I'm not really interested.

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@dubs.2396 said:TLDR: Stop waiting and asking for an Anet solution. The GW2 raiding community is outstanding with experienced trainers. Whisper other new people from training runs, make your own scrub squad (my static literally was called Dubs is a Scrub Static to make it clear what our intent was) and progress together. The barrier to entry for new players is self imposed.

I somehow doubt that. Granted I stopped playing ages ago after I discovered that they tied the first two raids into the main story, but at least back when I did play, when I looked up groups, there were never learning parties and you made your own group, the result was getting a massive carousel of people joining, getting frustrated (either at people who hadn't gotten everything, or annoyed by the mechanics themselves), people leaving, and then new people joining that resulted in things not actually improving and thus ending up perpetually stuck repeating the same phases and learning nothing new.

In contrast, in FF14 I've had no issue with PUGing the current tier EX Trials and Savage Raids. There's a very distinct progression from learning parties, clear parties and loot parties in the party finder, I've very rarely had issues filling a group, very rarely have people leave early on in learning groups, and basically never had anyone raging.

I feel like a big part of it is how easy battle resses are in progression, with the penalty coming in the form of a debuff that still lets people keep playing, so people will be able to constantly practice, while it feels like often in GW2 there are circumstances where people can't resurrect a downed person before they die (Died in a persistent AoE, didn't get off the Gorseval platform in time, etc.), so the person that's down essentially gets no further practice for the rest of the run.

Also, the party finder automatically allowing groups to prevent people who haven't completed it seems to have mostly dealt with what GW2's LI issue turned into. Someone who's just finished Progging it might not be the best, but they're usually good enough that it doesn't justify going out of your way to demand proof of multiple kills.

These are differences in game design, though on the community side, there's also the fact that somehow they've managed to end up with an attitude where during progression, people have only cared about other peoples' DPS if the group actually hit an enrage. Which seems like a reasonable stance that lets people focus on just picking up the mechanics first, then tuning their DPS as they get more mastery over them.

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights. Going into a brand new fight and wiping over and over simply because you're trying to figure out what the hell is killing you isn't really fun, and most people will just wait for some sort of guide to come out for it. The Vale Guardian is a perfect example of a Raid boss done right. You fight the three aspects first, each of which introduce you to a mechanic of the upcoming boss one at a time. Hell, even something as simple as an npc that gives you a quick overview of the upcoming fight in some sort of cinematic or something would be a huge improvement.

Can you give me an example of raid mechanic that cannot be figured out within 1-2 wipes?

From the perspective of players that have troubles with them? No, I can't, because I'm not one of those players. Not everyone plays on the same level though, and people do have issues with being thrown into mechanics and learning them on the spot. Facts are facts, and giving those players some sort of introduction to those mechanics would help ease people into the fights without having to create entirely separate easy mode raids and what not. Question is, why would you be opposed to this, and if you aren't, then why pose the question?

I am not opposed to 2nd difficulty. But I personally can't find a single mechanic in current raids that is not explained. Most of them are self-explanatory and some require you to read the tooltips on either the boss or your own buff bar. Even experienced squads with dozens of kills on particular boss can wipe before getting a successful kill. I find no problem with newbies wiping on a boss couple times to get mechanics down. Thought you might have some examples for "badly designed" mechanics. I just don't like unsubstantiated criticism.

It's simple really, there is a large portion of players that have issues understanding the mechanics,Who? Where? I'd like to talk to those people. Let them speak now or forever hold their peace! :)

They've been speaking for years now. At this point I can only assume that you are here to troll are just love being argumentative for the sake of it, but either way you aren't contributing anything of substance to this conversation at this point. If you want to hide under a rock and ignore the world around you, have fun with that, I'm not really interested.

I literally asked for examples from this "large portion of players" you speak of. If you can't give me a single one either you never interacted with this group or you just came here to provide hollow complains about raids. Good and the bad have to be recognized if we are ever to improve raids moving forward.

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I somehow doubt that. Granted I stopped playing ages ago after I discovered that they tied the first two raids into the main story, but at least back when I did play, when I looked up groups, there were never learning parties and you made your own group, the result was getting a massive carousel of people joining, getting frustrated (either at people who hadn't gotten everything, or annoyed by the mechanics themselves), people leaving, and then new people joining that resulted in things not actually improving and thus ending up perpetually stuck repeating the same phases and learning nothing new.

Lol how can you respond to my experience with "I doubt that" and then immediately say you don't even play. Every large guild I've joined on NA (6 to 7 come to mind right now) have a Raid Training day on their weekly schedule. NA Raid Academy discord is very active with posts hourly for runs of progression groups.

I literally used LFG with no LI requirement for weekly CM clears tonight. Some stated they had never completed the content. Few wipes on each boss, got the clears. No raging. One member left after a wipe but didn't say anything in chat. Most common thing said in chat? Thanks for the invite.

I can't speak to the game when you quit. But this is hot off the press NA experiences.

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@"Krzysztof.5973" said:I literally asked for examples from this "large portion of players" you speak of.Most players i have started raiding with could not understand many of the mechanics on their own. They had to learn them from guides or other players (that learned them from guides). Veteran raiders can generally do that when faced with new encounters (by drawing on their past experiences), but even then it's not generally uniform and depends on sort of hive mind approach. And even that sometimes fails when faced with something completely new.And i have also known veteran raiders that never noticed some key mechanics in encounters, just because they happened to always do those encounters in groups where someone else was taking care of those. Others learned how to deal with mechanics, but often don't know why they have to do it the specific way. They just repeat what they've been taught at some point in their raiding history.

It's for this exact reason relatively few raiding groups start new raid encounters completely blind, without attempting to get some prior knowledge about them. Most of those that start on the first day try to at least find a first kill video or encounter description from some of the leading, top tier raid guilds before. And many raiding squads never actually attempted an encounter there wasn't a guide for already.

It's easy to talk about all mechanics being easy to understand when you watched a guide first.

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Living far away from the server, raid seems too stressing for me (I mean, look, how can I be great in any endgame content, with average ping ranging from 300 to 600?)

Easy mode could be the answer, even better if it's possible to craft legendary armors by doing only easy mode. I don't mind if it would take a long time, but it needs to be rewarding, rewarding enough for people to do it consistently. I think the best way to implement it would be a new currency, dropped from easy raids, that can be traded in for LI.

...if you insist that these luxury items should remain only accessible for the hardcores, fine. Another idea: a chance for a black lion key. A chance somewhere around 10% should be good enough. Apply the once per week rule on easy mode as well, of course. Implement this BL key chance not only on easy mode but also normal/hard raids with slightly higher rate and voila! One more reason to raid. I mean, fashion is the true endgame isn't it?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:And i have also known veteran raiders that never noticed some key mechanics in encounters, just because they happened to always do those encounters in groups where someone else was taking care of those. Others learned how to deal with mechanics, but often don't know why they have to do it the specific way. They just repeat what they've been taught at some point in their raiding history.Very true indeed. I've participated in day one clearings of new raid wings multiple times with many different people. And when it comes to learning and adapting to mechanics you already know, it's different pace for each individual.

It's for this exact reason relatively few raiding groups start new raid encounters completely blind, without attempting to get some prior knowledge about them. Most of those that start on the first day try to at least find a first kill video or encounter description from some of the leading, top tier raid guilds before. And many raiding squads never actually attempted an encounter there wasn't a guide for already.

I'd give up a lot to reset my brain just so I can relive the experience of joining a raid wing without knowing anything about it. Then have fun spending time to figure out all the mechanics with my squad. For me personally, it's an amazing experience. It's extremely important to match the squad of like-minded people. If only half the squad is going to enjoy wiping so they can figure out the boss without checking any online guides - it will fall apart.

It's easy to talk about all mechanics being easy to understand when you watched a guide first.But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes?Possible? Perhaps. Likely? Heavily depending on encounters, but definitely not for all groups even on easy bosses.

I'll give you a personal example of a blind attempt at wing 6 that i participated in (in an experienced group), done when it released. It looked like this:

CA we managed to reason the mechanics out, but it took us quite a bit more than just 1-2 wipes for that - and few more wipes to think of how to deal with some of those.Largos Duo was easy to figure out, and wipes were more a result of being unable to put the knowledge into practiceQuadim however, at some point we had to look it up. I don't remember anymore what the specific problem was, but there were some elements we kept struggling with. We probably would have been able to deal with it eventually anyway, but by then it would have taken us a lot of attempts.

And as i said, it was in an experienced group. Many of new raiders need to die several times to a mechanic to understand it even after said mechanic was explained to them, so i can easily imagine how they'd behave if faced with completely new mechanics they've never heard of.

It might be easy for those at the very top of the raiding community, but not something one can expect even on the mid to lower tiers of it (much less from players completely new to the content).

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

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@Raffrey.5271 said:Living far away from the server, raid seems too stressing for me (I mean, look, how can I be great in any endgame content, with average ping ranging from 300 to 600?)

Easy mode could be the answer, even better if it's possible to craft legendary armors by doing only easy mode. I don't mind if it would take a long time, but it needs to be rewarding, rewarding enough for people to do it consistently. I think the best way to implement it would be a new currency, dropped from easy raids, that can be traded in for LI.

...if you insist that these luxury items should remain only accessible for the hardcores, fine. Another idea: a chance for a black lion key. A chance somewhere around 10% should be good enough. Apply the once per week rule on easy mode as well, of course. Implement this BL key chance not only on easy mode but also normal/hard raids with slightly higher rate and voila! One more reason to raid. I mean, fashion is the true endgame isn't it?

Do wvw or spvp you get the armor over time even if you fail in spvp.

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights.

Unless you meant some kind of introduction outside of raids then I'll admit I did indeed misunderstood your point, I don't think my conclusion that boss designs are bad because they're missing this introduction, was far fetched. You can't call for introduction to mechanics and not say it's bad game design for raids if it's missing it.

Now when it comes to the argument that we would need to have this type of introduction to every single boss, It would in my opinion make raids worse. Second difficulty would fit here much better. Prolonging the way to the next encounter is great when we talk about story mode. It's nice, you can relax and listen to what npcs are saying. But when it comes to clearing said content every week, I'm going to do everything to skip the roleplay I've heard hundred times already. My squad already relogs twice during Wing 7 because of this reason. I don't think there is a single solution to creating best possible experience for both groups in single-mode difficulty.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:But what we argue here right now is: is it possible for a new raider to figure out mechanics in current raids within 1-2 wipes? Why I'm pushing with this question so hard is because of open world people. Everyone can see the event window that describes pretty much everything you have to do in given event and yet quite many people are oblivious to what is going on, which in many cases renders then useless. Now when someone tells me that in this game, raid mechanics are badly designed such that, you desperately need introduction to those mechanics prior to boss fight in some shape or form, I simply take it with a pinch of salt.

This here is your issue, you're taking offense to something that never happened. I am not saying the encounters are poorly designed. I am saying that for the population that struggles with these mechanics because for some reason they have trouble grasping them, they would benefit greatly from a little hand holding that introduced them to the mechanics without sacrificing the difficulty of the content. This way, we can work on building players up, instead of dumbing content down and defeating the point of raids in the first place.

Honestly the only thing I would change with Raids is to create better introductions to the mechanics of the raid fights.

Unless you meant some kind of introduction outside of raids then I'll admit I did indeed misunderstood your point, I don't think my conclusion that boss designs are bad
because
they're missing this introduction, was far fetched. You can't call for introduction to mechanics and not say it's bad game design for raids if it's missing it.

Now when it comes to the argument that we would need to have this type of introduction to every single boss, It would in my opinion make raids worse. Second difficulty would fit here much better. Prolonging the way to the next encounter is great when we talk about story mode. It's nice, you can relax and listen to what npcs are saying. But when it comes to clearing said content every week, I'm going to do everything to skip the roleplay I've heard hundred times already. My squad already relogs twice during Wing 7 because of this reason. I don't think there is a single solution to creating best possible experience for
both
groups in single-mode difficulty.

I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content. I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to them, and many of them feel they shouldn't have to. For me, it seems crazy not to research the fight before hand and prepare yourself, but these players seem to feel that they shouldn't have to invest the time outside of the game to research a fight for some reason. That is why I feel that an optional in game introduction to these boss mechanics might help to get more players into raiding.

I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.

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@"Shaogin.2679" said:I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content.There's no objective definition of "raid worthy content". In fact, there's no such definition at all.

Unlike what some people think, "Raids" is not a word with sacred meaning, a content that should never be contaminated by the hands and feet of filthy casuals. WoW's LFR are raids. FF XIV's Crystal Tower also is a raid. Even if they do not fulfill some people's vision of what they expect raids to be.

I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to themAnd they will not. That's a constant in most MMORPGs by the way - a huge majority of players simply do not make use of third-party, external resources. No matter how useful they might be.

, and many of them feel they shouldn't have to.And they are right. If you need to use external resources to play the game, it's a sign that the game's design is lacking and/or faulty.

I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.The same vision that created the idea that the content needs to be "worthy" somehow to be called a raid is the one that is creating and sustaining the stigma. In fact, that vision and the stigma are the same. Why? Because a content that the majority of players can run is an antithesis of being "raid-worthy".

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:I don't know, I feel like raids are already easy enough that they shouldn't be dumbed down further. I feel like at that point they wouldn't really be raid worthy content.There's no objective definition of "raid worthy content". In fact, there's no such definition at all.

Unlike what some people think, "Raids" is not a word with sacred meaning, a content that should never be contaminated by the hands and feet of filthy casuals. WoW's LFR
are
raids. FF XIV's Crystal Tower also is a raid. Even if they do not fulfill some people's vision of what they expect raids to be.When someone starts a sentence with "I feel like", that is a pretty good sign that what follows is their subjective opinion. So, not really sure what this rant is all about.

I feel like it is better to improve player skill in a way that can be done in game, because many of these players that have issues aren't making use of all the external resources already available to themAnd they will not. That's a constant in most MMORPGs by the way - a huge majority of players simply do
not
make use of third-party, external resources. No matter how useful they might be.

Right . . . . . yeah that is what I just said.

, and many of them feel they shouldn't have to.And they are right. If you need to use external resources to play the game, it's a sign that the game's design is lacking and/or faulty.

And this here is your subjective opinion, not fact.

I love raids as they are, but I would also love to see more people get past a lot of the stigmas of raids and get involved in the content so that we could see more of it.The same vision that created the idea that the content needs to be "worthy" somehow to be called a raid is the one that is creating and sustaining the stigma. In fact, that vision and the stigma are the same. Why? Because a content that the majority of players can run is an antithesis of being "raid-worthy".

Also not true but ok. People's views on raid worthy content is different across the board (I mean, you literally just stated that there is no objective definition), but the most common one I see is simply challenging end game content for a large group of players. The stigmas I'm referring to are people thinking that raid environments are too toxic, that it is impossible to get started without already having experience, that a very strict list of meta builds MUST be used to complete the raid, and so on. As someone got in to raiding by researching the fights and hosting training runs, and as someone that continues to raid with both experienced and training groups, I can assure people that the raiding community is not this hostile force that some make it out to be. It is actually very easy to get into raiding.

Also, I'm kind of confused about your goal here. Did you comment just to be negative? Do you hate all concepts of raids? If so, why? I mean, I'm here advocating for better in game resources to introduce players to raid mechanics so that they don't have to use third party resources to figure it out. From what I can tell, you seem to be both for this and against this at the same time, very confusing honestly.

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@"Shaogin.2679" said:Also, I'm kind of confused about your goal here. Did you comment just to be negative? Do you hate all concepts of raids? If so, why? I mean, I'm here advocating for better in game resources to introduce players to raid mechanics so that they don't have to use third party resources to figure it out. From what I can tell, you seem to be both for this and against this at the same time, very confusing honestly.I posted, because the belief that the content needs to be somehow "worthy" to be called raids is quite popular among raiding communities in many games. It's also one of the primary reasons behind the existence of the so called" raid stigma" you'd want players to "overcome"

I just found it funny that you're both a believer in "raid worthiness" of content, and yet hoping people will overcome the stigma associated with that content, as those two things are two coins of the same mentality, just applied to different people.

You're trying to both eat the cake and still have it - and that's not going to work.

Edit: just in case you might misunderstand what i am saying:

On one side you have players that want the content to be challenging enough to be worthy of the name "raid". On the other side you have players avoiding the content, because it's too challenging. The difference between those two groups is the level of challenge they want (or can tolerate) in their content.

By associating raids with challenge - one aimed at the more hardcore part of community - you automatically create the "stigma" of the content being too challenging for everyone else. Thus, it's not possible to make the second group "overcome the stigma" without lowering the level of challenge.

All the other stuff (like the belief in toxicity of raid environment, or too high "meta requirements" etc) are just a byproduct of that different approach to the content those groups have.

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