EoD expansion should have new RAID

[yann.1946]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.

But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

I can raid. That's not really the issue. I never even said raids were hard. I don't know why you think I can't raid. I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding is exactly the kind of content I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with ability or skill. Yes, I have tried raiding. Yes, I didn't like raiding. Not sure where your assumption comes from.

If you can raid then why are you here to complain about raids and address yourself as the casual who got cheated on? you never said you could raid

This response makes no sense whatsoever, you can be against content you can complete. Some people are against certain genres of movies even though they technically can watch them.

[yann.1946]

What this thread has shown without a shadow of a doubt is that people are bad at statistics.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:My own experience has been like that too. HOT Raids have a much better reward (Legendary Armor) and I've been re-running them to offer that reward to newer players, especially when POF launched and many came back. To this day I haven't run Wing 7 once. To continue with my personal experience, I enjoy Raids that have clearly defined phases and escalated mechanics, something that HOT Raids used properly, while POF Raids did not do it as well. It's also why I don't like Slothasor, it's a fight which barely changes over time. Meanwhile, Vale Guardian, Matthias, Xera, Deimos are some of my favorite Raid bosses.Fair enough. Personally i also preferred HoT raids to w5 and w6 (can't speak of w7, since that one i haven't done as well). Although my preferences were (unsurprisingly) quite different than yours and leaned more towards the easy bosses.Nevertheless, i picked PoF wings because the talk was about specifically wing 7.

For Anet, players that do the content once and never repeat it are way less important than those that will continue playing in it.

Agreed. And Mike Z even said that they are going to put more emphasis on repeatable content because having unique assets and mechanics in a story instance that players play only once (or even not once) is a total waste of resources.I guess that's what they were aiming for with Strikes and DRMs - too bad they forgot to apply it to LS map design (even if Drizzlewood and Bjora were released piecemeal, they, alongside Grothmar, still used the old LS3/4 model where it's next to impossible to reuse maps later, after the episode that introduced them has finished). In that context limiting access to maps by having the episode unlocked, while potentially sensible from the business point of view (due to episodes having a gem price associated with them), are significantly hampering design possibilities. So, ironically, first moment when Mike Z's words actually fully applied is the Champions episode. Which happened to be released (and probably designed as well) long after he left the house.

[Vilin.8056]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vilin.8056" said:Here's a fact that does not require believing to be true: 70% of registered accounts in Gw2Efficiency are below 1k AP.

Um, excuse me but no. What did I just read.

Take a look at this screenshot from the

official leaderboards

So 80% of this game's accounts (not gw2efficiency) have lower than about 1150 AP. Which is the mid point between those two, the exact number is not known with my limited friend/guild list but if more people check theirs we might find the correct answer. Still 80% of ACCOUNTS have under 1147 AP (which is the number a player at 70% has)

As for gw2efficiency, you can see here:

the majority of accounts (62%) have the Respected Achiever title, which is awarded at 5k AP. Unfortunately there is no way to tell how many gw2efficiency users are between 1150 and 5000, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of gw2efficiency accounts is somewhere in that bracket and very few are under it.

Edit: because I've used the "70% of accounts have under 600 AP" before, I was talking about the entire game, not gw2efficiency, if the most dedicated (note the word) players had under 1k AP then the game would be dead at this point.

Edit2: as for the argument of which type of player has a gw2efficiency account, those that play as much of this game as possible. As a matter of fact, 566 gw2efficiency accounts have the Furious Achiever title which is awarded at 40k AP. There are 185 accounts in NA at 40k+ and 488 in EU, 673 total, or 84% of those above 40k AP have a gw2efficiency account.

Which means that according to official stat, likely 70% of player base has not passed Zhaitan story and less than 20% has even passed any episode in expansion or Living Story based on their cumulative AP.

Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal%20initiate&filter.category=30Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

Hardly even moderately represent the hardcore community, and guess where do the majority of their gold came from if members of that site hardly do fractals?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Vilin.8056" said:Since I have no gw2efficiency account, are you able to find how many % of the site playerbase has the "Unclean" title as a indicator of moderately hardcore players outside of raids?

The Unclean is owned by 15.4% of gw2efficiency accounts.If we compare Bastion of the Penitent (which was released 3 months after Nightmare) with Nightmare Fractal CM:Cairn: 25.2%, Deimos: 15.7%, Nightmare CM: 15.4%

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Vilin.8056" said:Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal%20initiate&filter.category=30Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

Ahem. Those fractal achievements were added later on (old ones were removed) and you had to replay all fractals of the relevant difficulties. I run Fractal T4s, I run Fractal CMs, I run Raids, and I don't have Fractal Adept or Fractal Expert because I don't really care to go back and replay every single fractal level I'm missing.

[Vilin.8056]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vilin.8056" said:Here's a relative GW2Efficiency stat outside of raid:Only 23.8% has unlocked Fractal Initiate (fractal lv 1-25):

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=Fractal%20initiate&filter.category=30

Only 11.0% has unlocked Fractal Expert (fractal lv 51-75):

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.category=148

Ahem. Those fractal achievements were added later on (old ones were removed) and you had to replay all fractals of the relevant difficulties. I run Fractal T4s, I run Fractal CMs, I run Raids, and I don't have Fractal Adept or Fractal Expert because I don't really care to go back and replay every single fractal level I'm missing.That is the purpose, since most frequent T4 runners are already part of that minority 15.4% Nightmare CM crowd, the Initiative/Expert stats represents the rest who frequent Fractals

casually

and would have already fulfilled these achievements over the course of the year(s). Which also proves to be a minority.

So since the majority of these members do not frequent ANY instanced contents, they farm open map for the majority of their gold is it?Nope.Only 51% has ever slain the Legendary Mordrem Demolisher in the Silverwaste in last 7 years:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=demo

Again, veteran casual flipper site.

*BTW, thanks for the effort, I didn't know how to operate that site until now

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:Again, veteran casual flipper site.TP barons are not casual players.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:Again, veteran casual flipper site.TP barons are

not

casual players.Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:Again, veteran casual flipper site.TP barons are

not

casual players.Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.Well, considering that most casuals don't use third party sites (and a number of them that i have known were not even aware

we have forums

, even though their playing times were in 4 digits - imagine that), someone that knows about that site, cares enough about what that site offers to make an account and generate an api key for it is already two steps above a typical casual.

And TP barons are generally very hardcore, which is not surprising - if you play the market only casually, you most often than not are not only not earning much, but in a great danger of actually losing gold. Anyone that invests time and effort in learning the market to the point where they can reliably profit from it is not a casual player.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:Again, veteran casual flipper site.TP barons are

not

casual players.Given your previous assessment that GW2Efficiency is a hardcore site, I'm not surprised.Well, considering that most casuals don't use third party sites (and a number of them that i have known were not even aware

we have forums

, even though their playing times were in 4 digits - imagine that), someone that knows about that site, cares enough about what that site offers to make an account and generate an api key for it is already two steps above a typical casual.

And TP barons are generally

very

hardcore, which is not surprising - if you play the market only casually, you most often than not are not only not earning much, but in a great danger of actually

losing

gold. Anyone that invests time and effort in learning the market to the point where they can reliably profit from it is

not

a casual player.Again, like dungeons experiences, you're placing a very narrowminded personal impressions over the grand scale of statistics.

With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.

I know many casuals don't care much about 3rd party sites, but as diverted as the casual community gets, it doesn't mean this site does not attract many casuals who has been long with the game, the statistics clearly shows that.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Vilin.8056" said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for them

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vilin.8056" said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.Nah, you gave no proof at all.

[Vayne.8563]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

[Krzysztof.5973]

TP flipping? I think we are getting more and more away from OP's point.

[Vayne.8563]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:TP flipping? I think we are getting more and more away from OP's point.

It relates, if people are trying to use GW2Efficiency as a way to imply the number of raiders in this game. Obviously if there aren't many raiders by percentage, Anet shouldn't waste resources to put one in the new expansion.

The current argument, according to one guy, is that Veteran Casual TP flippers make up a significant percentage of GW2 effiiency and that raiders don't have a reason to have a GW2 efficiency account.

I believe most raiders probably do have a GW2efficiency account. It's useful for one thing. As raiders they have reasons to do research outside the game and they'd have at least heard of it. The more hardcore you are, the more likely you are to go to other sites full stop.

My argument is GW2efficiency would have the hardest core players and those most likely to raid. That's why we're talking about tp flipping. Because one of the raiders believes that there are enough veteran casual tp flippers to influence the GW2 effiency stats. I don't believe it, and said so.

I don't believe most casuals are on GW2efficiency and as a result, I believe GW2efficiency stats will show a greater percentage of raiders than those that don't use efficiency.

[Vilin.8056]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmasterOnly 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

[Vayne.8563]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster

Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?

[Vilin.8056]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster

Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?81% are accounts that's been actively played:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal%20experience

62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride%20of%20lion

62% achieved least 5k AP

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected%20Achiever

So much for alt accounts never used.

Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune%20slayer

Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond%20the%20vale

[Vayne.8563]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster

Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?81% are accounts that's been actively played:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal%20experience

62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride%20of%20lion

62% achieved least 5k AP

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected%20Achiever

So much for alt accounts never used.

Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune%20slayer

Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond%20the%20vale

You're still trying to prove something without any evidence.

Let's look at what you said. I have ten accounts and I've been to drizzlewood on two of them, but a few of them have more than 5000 points. It's all nonsense. You have data that has no provenence. That's all you have.

Again, Anet has the data. All of it. Anet knows how many raiders there are. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince them. But I guess if we don't get that raid, we'll know not enough people are raiding.

[Vayne.8563]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster

Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

I have 10 accounts and 500 Chef on one of them. This proves you're ignoring what I've been saying all along. What evidence do you have that raiders don't have alt accounts?

[Vilin.8056]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:With a majority of 5k+ AP, these links above has clearly proven their participation and capability in contents over the years, when we are dividing the player base according to skill level and content difficulties, how much they study over the TP is completely irrelevant.You're the one that was talking about gw2eff being the site for casual flippers.Yes and with proof, therefore it is the site for veteran casual flippers.

And btw, only 0.6% has the "I'm Rich You Know" Title, so even the TP Barons you describe are the extreme minority.The few extremely wealthy individuals i know don't have that title, because they don't spend gold for vanity. They invest it to get more gold (and that title gives absolutely no return). Even if buying that title would be peanuts for themAgain, a few individuals you claim to know does not represent the whole site statistics in a grand scale.

Veteran Casual Flippers? I'm not sure I've seen any argument in this whole argument so far that indicates the desperation a; raider will go to to prove a point. Exactly how many veteran casual flippers do you think there are and why would they be using something like efficiency instead of the sites made for flipping like GW2tp.com or lunchbox or one of the others.

GW2efficiency is great for altoholics and people who craft legendaries. I'm pretty sure most casuals aren't crafting all that many legendaries and so they just use the wiki.

Edit: More to the point, using AP is pointless since lots of veterans have alt accounts, including veterans who raid in my guild. They simply use them for log in rewards and extra storage. Since they're only logging in, they're going to have very low AP even though they'd count in statistics. Which means 90% of my accounts don't have any T2 fractals at all, but my main account has finished every fractal. My wife too. That's 90% of both of our accounts or 9 out of 10, since those other accounts simply feed our main account. That would easily explain why so many people on gw2efficiency are under 1000 AP. And of course some just stopped playing as well.

Another who threw toxic comments toward Raider community without ever looking at statistics.

Only 30% in GW2Efficiency possess the Master Crafter title:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=master%20crafter

Even more relative stats for GW2Efficiency member's capability to craft Gen 2 Legendary:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=grandmaster

Only 55% ever reached lv. 500 WeaponsmithOnly 39% ever reached Lv 500 ArtificerOnly 36% ever reached Lv 500 HuntsmanSo much for crafting legendary.

Additionally:Only 14% ever reached lvl 500 ChefThis proves the site members to be indisputably casual.

I have 10 accounts on Guild Wars 2 efficiency, one of which has the master crafter title. That's precisely WHY it's useless for this. Because people do list alt accounts but don't necessarily use them.

Someone here is trying to prove people do raids by GW2 efficiency. It's just not useful for that. Do you know who actually has stats on who does and doesn't do raids? Anet.

And they've said not enough people do them. Do raiders know better than Anet about how many raiders there actually are?81% are accounts that's been actively played:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=fractal%20experience

62% has explored into the depths of Dragon's Stand

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=pride%20of%20lion

62% achieved least 5k AP

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.key=titles&filter.search=Respected%20Achiever

So much for alt accounts never used.

Here's how many who frequent Drizzlewood:18.7% unlocked Tribune Slayer:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=tribune%20slayer

Yet with a statistics this casual, still least 30% defeated Vale Guardian:

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=beyond%20the%20vale

You're still trying to prove something without any evidence.

Let's look at what you said. I have ten accounts and I've been to drizzlewood on two of them, but a few of them have more than 5000 points. It's all nonsense. You have data that has no provenence. That's all you have.

Again, Anet has the data. All of it. Anet knows how many raiders there are. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince them. But I guess if we don't get that raid, we'll know not enough people are raiding.Still irrelevant how many accounts a casual player may have, since we already know many Botters apply multi accounts onto that site to surveillance daily account value growth per time to determine efficiencies(since they don't farm raw gold, it's difficult to manually calculate loot values).

Active players with alt accounts isn't the majority among both sides of hardcore/casual spectrum, and raiders with alt account usually raid with his alts for the extra gold, and raid currencies which can be tracible here with W7 Sabir which only account in 9% completion rate for an relative non-demanding boss for Gaeting Crystal.https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=storm%20chaserOne statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.

What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented site and real world statics of Raid participation is higher than a handful of members who's focus isn't in the gameplay in the first place. When over 70~80% accounts are vacant in official stat, we barely have enough players for anything, considering which side is a majority is a very niche thing at this point here.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented siteNo. It's not. So far you've been talking about trends on the site (and linking them in a way that fits your preconceptions, but is not necessarily true). You'd still need to make a next step and point out how those statistics relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).

One statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.Yes, the community in majority does not consist of raiders. And this obviously has also an impact on gw2efficiency to some degree. It's not a site purely for hardcores (it's too big for that). It's still a site where the percentage of hardcores (including raiders) is higher than in overall community. Probably much higher, although we don;t have stats for that.

This is caused by something you never bothered to address - that casuals do not, for the most part, use third party sites. There are, obviously, exceptions, but within casual group they are an exception and are in a minority. In fact, the willingness to use external resources is one of the core features of more hardcore approach to gaming.

Most casuals just play the game, and don't use other sites - not even forums. Hardcore players are always overrepresented in such places. If they turn out to be in a minority even there, it just shows how few of them are overall.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:What's proven is that it is not a hardcore oriented siteNo. It's not. So far you've been talking about trends on the site (and linking them in a way that fits your preconceptions, but is not necessarily true). You'd still need to make a next step and point out how those statistics relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).You're the one who's making the assumption that this site be to more hardcore oriented without bringing in even

ONE

single statistic, not me.All I did was stating this site membership only caters to some specific groups of people of interest that has no correlations with Raiders with statistics of activities to prove.

One statistic don't hold water, but when they compare with each other, it still tells a story of what the community relatively is in the majority, which isn't of Raiders.Yes, the community in majority does

not

consist of raiders. And this obviously has also an impact on gw2efficiency to some degree. It's not a site purely for hardcores (it's too big for that). It's still a site where the percentage of hardcores (including raiders) is higher than in overall community. Probably much higher, although we don;t have stats for that.Please bring in your statistics to prove these assumptions true and how it relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).

This is caused by something you never bothered to address - that casuals do not, for the most part, use third party sites. There are, obviously, exceptions, but within casual group they

are

an exception and are in a minority. In fact, the willingness to use external resources is one of the core features of more hardcore approach to gaming.Most casuals just play the game, and don't use other sites - not even forums. Hardcore players are

always

overrepresented in such places. If they turn out to be in a minority even there, it just shows how few of them are overall.Please also bring in your statistics to prove these assumptions true and how it relate to the whole of gw2 community (and why).If you haven't noticed, so far all your posts in this threads in based on assumptions with zero actual base.