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Some thoughts on balancing


Bazsi.2734

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@Arheundel.6451 said:Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least
these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems
, for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

Just look at this forum....-"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them-"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds-"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least
these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems
, for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

Just look at this forum....-"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them-"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds-"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

I mean, its no different on discord.Y the ranger wants ranger buffedX the thief wants thief buffedZ the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

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If this is the state of the game after a year of only listening to ex ESL players then...

The only reason certain builds might seem overtuned is because almost everything else is severely underperforming. Build diversity has never been this bad.

What did you expect would happen when you can't kill people fast enough because nothing does enough damage anymore? And now many skills don't even deal damage at all.

Whats next after support builds are dead enough because you finally removed more amulets? Shaving off even more mobility and evasiveness of classes (again)? Then what? Removing any amulet with vitality or toughness on it (Knight Amulet???)? Fix/change traits interactions first, rework them if its necessary. Don't just cut values in half.What an endless stream of hyper balance bulls***.And don't just suddenly go and buff thief to deal more damage now, everyone needs and deserves more damage. Or actually no one does at all but then actually put effort on tweaking and reworking skills.

My point is that ANET shouldn't exclusively listen to such a small group of people. Because again, just as someone already said, being the best at the game doesn't automatically make you good at game design.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least
these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems
, for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

Just look at this forum....-"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them-"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds-"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

I mean, its no different on discord.Y the ranger wants ranger buffedX the thief wants thief buffedZ the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

Indeed but...so far the nerfs have been far less destructive than in the past when Anet was seriously taking into consideration this circus of a forum...you'd still have your mesmer if they'd have listened to players like @Helseth and not the clowns on the forum, they'd have nerfed the right things...rather than the common butchering as the only thing left to please the angry mob

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least
these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems
, for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

Just look at this forum....-"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them-"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds-"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

I mean, its no different on discord.Y the ranger wants ranger buffedX the thief wants thief buffedZ the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

Indeed but...so far the nerfs have been far less destructive than in the past when Anet was seriously taking into consideration this circus of a forum...you'd still have your mesmer if they'd have listened to players like @Helseth and not the clowns on the forum, they'd have nerfed the right things...rather than the common butchering as the only thing left to please the angry mob

I dont think you have to be a pro player to know that listening to people like bad med or that guy that writes pointless long posts are a bad idea.Good peeps have their bias and their different personal view for the game. As said, X is a thief 1trick and will want thief to be strong, so he might suggest some changes to create meta better for his class, Y doesnt like condi so he might want condi builds nerfed, Z multi-classes and prefers sidenode games so he doesnt want shit like bunker-scrapper to be good, etc. Sure good chunk of them might be good ideas, but fair amount of those peeps have hidden agendas or bias that they themselves dont even realize.

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That's because Anet isn't doing balancing.They're doing nerfing down as if to make up for over 5 years of power creep.

Weak classes get weaker, and when meta stuff become weak, the next popular build that pops up gets nerfed down as wellThat's why the game is slowly feeling like it's going into the caveman days of hitting each other with rocks (Bunker vs Bunker meta)

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100% agree with you, especially with the overnerfing and rebuffing part. We have an extremely high amount of specs that are unplayable - Berserker, Firebrand, Chronomancer and alot of core specs instantly spring into mind. By overnerfing them they do nothing but make entire classes unplayable for several months or even longer, decrease build variety and cause huge mechanical issues for classes.I think exactly that is a big reason why the PvP population has so rapidly declined - no one will wait half a year or so until they maybe fix specs they have gutted into uselessness.

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as a rev main who played shiro renegade from the start (i know i mostly comment about warrior, but most people in-game thought i mained rev, that's how much i played rev and barely played warrior for the past year, i told them i mained war they didn't believe it, anyway)i think the nerf is fine, the sustain it has is insane for it to do any more damage than now

people can still build for higher damage but need to face higher risk, that's all. but people aren't used to this, people are used to having incredible damage and still survive without proper positioning thanks to all the power creepdefinitely missed the good old 2013 days, where people actually need to try to survive with proper positioning for the high damage build they ran..it was fun time..but i guess daredevil killed it all

The same goes for burnguard, the amount of sustain and damage doesn't add up.

also after the removal of mender, it's gonna be a lot better.

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@snoow.1694 said:100% agree with you, especially with the overnerfing and rebuffing part. We have an extremely high amount of specs that are unplayable - Berserker, Firebrand, Chronomancer and alot of core specs instantly spring into mind. By overnerfing them they do nothing but make entire classes unplayable for several months or even longer, decrease build variety and cause huge mechanical issues for classes.I think exactly that is a big reason why the PvP population has so rapidly declined - no one will wait half a year or so until they maybe fix specs they have gutted into uselessness.

Haven't smelled an average berserker build with a purpose for like what 4 years, Sacrificed on the alter of PoF, great expansion for making pvp in the game terrible, if that was their idea 5/7 gg no re.

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You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

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@"mistsim.2748" said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

"You're not running out of options"

Mind saying that again for the ele mains in the back?

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@mistsim.2748 said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:

  • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
  • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
  • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:
  • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
  • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
  • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove more options.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"mistsim.2748" said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:
  • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
  • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
  • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options". This guy gets it.

Edit: omg I mean Mender's.

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@mistsim.2748 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:
  • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
  • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
  • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

Thats a condi burst build. I even gave the example of old core engi for reference.

In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

There are two ways this can play out. Either the compensation the sigil gives is negligible, which means the death of every support build that provides sustain through healing. Or there will be enough compensation to outgoing healing with sigils/traits/whatever, which would mean the current disgusting meta of stacking 2 scourges on a capture point would play out exactly like it does right now. Except they would also do somewhat more damage, so even less incentive to run offensive builds.Also... Minstrel? What?

Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

Guess I'll have to define what I mean by attrition bruiser. It's a sturdy build with good cleansing/tanking ability(has to excel at least one of these), but absolutely bad self-healing and average mobility at best. These builds win fights by outlasting the enemy, this playstyle can only exist if the enemy bruiser also takes damage way over its sustain. Vanilla core necro with curses/spite and WITHOUT blood magic was the epitome of this.So no, this is was absolutely not the meta during the last 8 years. I wouldn't be here complaining about balancing if that was the case.

If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

I had to look up what Minstrel stats are, because it's not a thing in PvP, and I stopped raiding back in 2017. I'm just going to assume you meant Menders. And yes you are right, now that damage has been toned down repeatedly in every patch since last february, we reached the limit where this bruiser amulet can outheal almost everything.The sensible thing would be to tone down healing by nerfing how skills scale with healing power. Which I already stated in my OP... noone even tried to argue that it would be a bad idea. The only argument I got was that "removing menders is easier and faster".Which is of course not something I'd dispute, the lazy and destructive approach is always the easiest. Though.... do we really want to play a game that is managed that way?

And this is where the serious answer stops and the snark begins:

Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options".

Unsarcastically. I like that word.

This guy gets it.

What makes you say that? He seems like the giving type to me.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:
  • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
  • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
  • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

Thats a condi burst build. I even gave the example of old core engi for reference.

In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

There are two ways this can play out. Either the compensation the sigil gives is negligible, which means the death of every support build that provides sustain through healing. Or there will be enough compensation to outgoing healing with sigils/traits/whatever, which would mean the current disgusting meta of stacking 2 scourges on a capture point would play out exactly like it does right now. Except they would also do somewhat more damage, so even less incentive to run offensive builds.Also... Minstrel? What?

Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

Guess I'll have to define what I mean by attrition bruiser. It's a sturdy build with good cleansing/tanking ability(has to excel at least one of these), but absolutely bad self-healing and average mobility at best. These builds win fights by outlasting the enemy, this playstyle can only exist if the enemy bruiser also takes damage way over its sustain. Vanilla core necro with curses/spite and WITHOUT blood magic was the epitome of this.So no, this is was absolutely not the meta during the last 8 years. I wouldn't be here complaining about balancing if that was the case.

If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

I had to look up what Minstrel stats are, because it's not a thing in PvP, and I stopped raiding back in 2017. I'm just going to assume you meant Menders. And yes you are right, now that damage has been toned down repeatedly in every patch since last february, we reached the limit where this bruiser amulet can outheal almost everything.The sensible thing would be to tone down healing by nerfing how skills scale with healing power. Which I already stated in my OP... noone even tried to argue that it would be a bad idea. The only argument I got was that "removing menders is easier and faster".Which is of course not something I'd dispute, the lazy and destructive approach is always the easiest. Though.... do we really want to play a game that is managed that way?

And this is where the serious answer stops and the snark begins:

Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options". This guy gets it.

How would you know if the guy gets it? He seems like the giving type to me.

Obviously by Minstrel I mean Mender's. I'm working on some wvw theorycrafting so I have a headache.

Also, lol.

Overall I agree with your points.

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The only way that builds with the removal of menders will be viable, is if they give people 100% Healing bonus on the new transfusion sigils. Since no Healing power, everything will be based on the base heal, and so base healing will be equalized as a consequence of this.

Right now with a menders amulet Conjure Frost bow's auto does about 1200 healing per attack. It's base healing is 442. a 100% contribution from a sigil will raise that to 900, and any other contribution from traits and other abilities will bring it the healing modifiers to anywhere betwee 120%-160% and bring us back to 1200. This is the only way to replace menders...is by giving us healing modifier sigils that give 100% healing bonuses.

Now does anyone here truly believe we will get 100% healing bonuses on these new modifiers...i highly doubt it. Anything less then 100% will be a huge huge nerf....And because they aren't removing Avatar's and Sage, it means that they will in NO way give us 100%.

they will give us 25% transfusion sigils, It will be a huge nerf to all support builds, and there will be even less diversity then there's ever been in the history of the game.

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@"Bazsi.2734" said:

Don't! Please stop! Balance the builds causing the meta being slow. You created this situation by removing true support amulets and lowering damage to the level that support classes can outsustain it wearing bruiser amulets like menders. If anything I would go in the opposite direction, adding back healing mainstat/concentration amulets and nerfing the scaling with healing power on every ability in the game. That way supports would not be able to do damage(which would actually make people care not to overstack them), and would be reliant on boons. Not to mention the sustain of every bruiser would be hit aswell. We had metas like that, and they were more healthy than what we currently have.

To add back concentration stat, global boon durations need to be toned down. Having endless boons like old holos and rangers even firebrands is not what this game needs. Some buffs/boons need to be temporal to show when player is strong and when player is weak. In time when its strong, if it get boon striped/corupted then it will always remain weak.

I can compare world of warcraft support/healer to guild wars 2 and all i can tell is that in WoW there are larger health pools so it is easier for their healers/supports to work while in guild wars 2 health pools are too small compared to damage that can come out. As long as some spells can deal up to 50%+ health as damage, this game won't be any good neither viable for supports as the difference is from doing burst healing, missing bursting healing or even overhealing(healing nothing above full health).

What also makes supports bad is that healing out of combat exist, so why needing a healer if you can disengage and heal up to full?

Another comparation with WoW is that WoW supports have resource bar-"mana" so supports can be good but if they are spamming their spells too much and use high cost spells, at some point they can't keep up supporting. In guild wars 2 it is a healthbar....as long you are alive you can support and once you get pressured you can't even support yourself and that is a reason why we have bunker supports with mender.

Another good thing that exist in wow are tanks in pvp. They redirect some % of damage on themselves, a real purpose of absorbing some damage for your team. While in gw2 you have tanks/bunkers who only care about their own life sitting on node and that's it. Even now, there is no toughness anymore, tanks just became brusiers or healers and that is where we have "bunker" meta with dps+tank and healer+tank builds.

All classes need to be good in their own thing not to be good in everything. Moving from there, you can actually have different roles covering each other into good synergy which makes a team.

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