Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

[Ayrilana.1396]

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

I suggest taking a look on the SC site and see what comps they use. Having classes which provide all of the boons isn't unique to SC either. I won't even get started on using a handful of looks at the LFG as a basis of how things are or are not run in strikes nor the confirmation bias some seem to have regarding it.

You proved my point with the circular argument, thank you.

So any post that disagrees with your position is a circular argument?

[Linken.6345]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

I suggest taking a look on the SC site and see what comps they use. Having classes which provide all of the boons isn't unique to SC either. I won't even get started on using a handful of looks at the LFG as a basis of how things are or are not run in strikes nor the confirmation bias some seem to have regarding it.

You proved my point with the circular argument, thank you.

So any post that disagrees with your position is a circular argument?

Sadly, I dont think they understand what they read that well.Or they mix up what they read from different people and mash it together in their mind.

[reapex.8546]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

I suggest taking a look on the SC site and see what comps they use. Having classes which provide all of the boons isn't unique to SC either. I won't even get started on using a handful of looks at the LFG as a basis of how things are or are not run in strikes nor the confirmation bias some seem to have regarding it.

You proved my point with the circular argument, thank you.

So any post that disagrees with your position is a circular argument?

That doesn't make any sense.

[reapex.8546]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

I suggest taking a look on the SC site and see what comps they use. Having classes which provide all of the boons isn't unique to SC either. I won't even get started on using a handful of looks at the LFG as a basis of how things are or are not run in strikes nor the confirmation bias some seem to have regarding it.

You proved my point with the circular argument, thank you.

So any post that disagrees with your position is a circular argument?

Sadly, I dont think they understand what they read that well.Or they mix up what they read from different people and mash it together in their mind.

I think they did too.

[Cyninja.2954]

@reapex.8546 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

LFG groups in general run no "SC comps", what ever that might be. If SC comps are what the website lists as meta compositions for bosses. Those are high end speedrun, static, practice a LOT comps.

Most groups, even very experienced groups, and absolutely pretty much ALL LFG groups, do NOT run SC meta compositions. Most definitely not for clearing bosses. That has been mentioned in this thread. In fact if you ever do read a thread about a record run, which these composition are often based around, you'd also often read how many tries it took for the run to actually succeed. That's great fun for people who love raiding and killing a boss hundreds of times per week while trying things. It's a disaster for getting the weekly kills done, which LFG groups are all about.

You'd do well to clarify what you actually mean with SC comps because that term or composition as such does not exist. You might be referring to often run meta compositions consisting of multiple meta support builds filled up with damage dealers. Those are not SC comps and the website nor the guild has ANYTHING to do with meta compositions being run. Back during vanilla the meta dungeon group was 4 warriors and 1 mesmer. Then later elementalists with ice bows. Etc. Meta compositions have been a part of this game far before the SC website ever existed.

What players look for is often specific roles for providing of boons, healing and dps (most certainly for strikes). Suffice to say, those are NOT "SC comps". In fact most of those builds can be found on many other website too and do not necessarily originate on SC first. That said, I find it strange one would consider that players asking for specific roles to be covered and specific boons to be present to be somehow bad. We know how big the benefit of a full boon setup is and that it is beneficial to have this for each fight. Some groups want those benefits, others do not.

Sure, it's fine you believe that.

True, we all get to believe what we want.

The only question then becomes:"how credible do others perceive our statements to be."

[reapex.8546]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Senfdieb.3985 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Never have I seen ppl in lfg asking SC squad compositions. Just basic comps like 2 chronos, druid, bs, off heal and 5 dps.

I have several times and sometimes even for Strike Missions now.

Can you send me the link were SC shows their strike squad setups?

From Raids my personal favorite is mathias with it's six subgroups btw...I can't imagine you'll find something like that in the lfg.

Think my message was misinterpreted. I was replying to the previous person about SC squad comps in Strike Missions.Its rare to find lowman LFG groups for raids or Strike Missions.

Please define what you’re referring to as a “SC squad comp” in the LFG.

If you haven't seen them in LFG, no amount definition would satisfy your curiosity. You'll debunk it and believe it's not true. Which would lead to a circular argument. If you go back through the previous pages, there was many explanations about what a SC squad comp is. There are pages of numerous circular arguments, so if your curious read the previous pages of this forum post.

LFG groups in general run no "SC comps", what ever that might be. If SC comps are what the website lists as meta compositions for bosses. Those are high end speedrun, static, practice a LOT comps.

Most groups, even very experienced groups, and absolutely pretty much ALL LFG groups, do NOT run SC meta compositions. Most definitely not for clearing bosses. That has been mentioned in this thread. In fact if you ever do read a thread about a record run, which these composition are often based around, you'd also often read how many tries it took for the run to actually succeed. That's great fun for people who love raiding and killing a boss hundreds of times per week while trying things. It's a disaster for getting the weekly kills done, which LFG groups are all about.

You'd do well to clarify what you actually mean with SC comps because that term or composition as such does not exist. You might be referring to often run meta compositions consisting of multiple meta support builds filled up with damage dealers. Those are not SC comps and the website nor the guild has ANYTHING to do with meta compositions being run. Back during vanilla the meta dungeon group was 4 warriors and 1 mesmer. Then later elementalists with ice bows. Etc. Meta compositions have been a part of this game far before the SC website ever existed.

What players look for is often specific roles for providing of boons, healing and dps (most certainly for strikes). Suffice to say, those are NOT "SC comps". In fact most of those builds can be found on many other website too and do not necessarily originate on SC first. That said, I find it strange one would consider that players asking for specific roles to be covered and specific boons to be present to be somehow bad. We know how big the benefit of a full boon setup is and that it is beneficial to have this for each fight. Some groups want those benefits, others do not.

Sure, it's fine you believe that.

True, we all get to believe what we want.

The only question then becomes:"how credible do others perceive our statements to be."

Interesting.

[Biermeister.4678]

The builds are not the problem sites that post their meta builds are a good reference for making a build that works for an individual a lot of the content in the game has to do with position if you stand in the wrong spot you die raids strikes and fractals have a set program and can be predicted

[lare.5129]

because we still not have max imcoming damage modification for boss.No matter how you dps - in boss prom one person income damage is for example 10kIf that machanic will come to new wing - "dps skip" mechanic will be nerfed.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

@Klypto.1703 said:The website mentioned isn't the problem its the players and their behavior that play raids and the efficiency site you can see how majority of players just avoid raids and strike missions for that very purpose. So its not the fault of the developer or a website that houses a database of builds to use. Before raids these same kind of players were the dungeon players people hated playing with so basically whatever is viewed as the best endgame pve content is where you will find these people and that content will always be avoided unless people organize methods to put those kinds of players in their own lane while people who don't want to play with them can play without the hassle of dealing with them.

Ironically the exact problem I have with the living world, the 90% of players there just spam 1 in random gear with mismatching rare runes. They are the reason events fail, because of the lack of damage and failing break bars, and the reason 99% of the game is has to be too easy so the common denominator can finish the content. Thank god there is a method to keep these players out of the content I want to complete, it is called lfg, most players must not know how to use it. How do i know this, because compare a lfg strike group to a public instance strike group, the quality of player is significant higher.Personally I think the golden age of gw2 was prehot, the devs actually tried to challenge the players to get better. We had tequalt rising, triple trouble, liadre, and ls bosses with cms that have no npcs and if you die, they get 100% of the health back. This was also when silverwaste and vinewraith would fail all the time. Now we have living story bosses that the npcs will kill themself eventually, world bosses that are just loot pinatas.

[lare.5129]

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:he reason 99% of the game is has to be too easywithout that 99% it will be another game. So may be we should discard that 1% better?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@lare.5129 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:he reason 99% of the game is has to be too easywithout that 99% it will be another game. So may be we should discard that 1% better?

There can be more balance.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:he reason 99% of the game is has to be too easywithout that 99% it will be another game. So may be we should discard that 1% better?

There can be more balance.Any shift in the balance of content (regardless of direction) is going to make some players quit. Neither you nor I have any idea what numbers are we talking about, but maybe Anet does.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:he reason 99% of the game is has to be too easywithout that 99% it will be another game. So may be we should discard that 1% better?

There can be more balance.Any shift in the balance of content (regardless of direction) is going to make some players quit. Neither you nor I have any idea what numbers are we talking about, but maybe Anet does.

Not necessarily when the vast majority of the game favors one group of players.

[keenedge.9675]

substitute "wiki build" or "rotation" with "kata" in this Excerpt.

 

Kata has value in terms of capturing and passing on information. The problem is that people have made learning the kata as an end in itself. Instead of a starting point, a way of reminding you of important information. You then need to take this information and train it as you suggest. This is whats the old masters used to do. Which is why when you see the rare videos of them training, for example the video of funakoshi (founder of shotokan) doing the heian shodan form he looks pretty rubbish by todays standards. But I would bet he knew how to apply it and practicing it with partners is probably where he spent his time. Spending time making kata look perfect to the point that all meaning is lost which is a modern phononemen. The problem of people prioritising the form over the function is seen in the fact that many karate people come up with frankly rediculous applications for their kata. The explainantions they come up are often divorced from reality and so the value of the kata is lost. Where as if you look at the work of someone like Patrick McCarthy you get a much better idea of what you should actually be doing. The problem isn't that kata doen't have value. The problem is that perhaps only 1% of karate people actually understand how to use it and then take develop their training into dealing with opponents in a realistic way.

 

Edit: This is also the lesson Bruce Lee was striving to teach Westerners and the old masters.

Edited April 30, 2021 by keenedge.9675

[tim.4596]

On 10/11/2020 at 1:49 AM, Blumpf.2518 said:

Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.

With shorter phases you need lesser boon duration, less heal or even 1 less healer. You can sacrifice boon uptime and heal for more DPS to make the bosskill even faster.

BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.

All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.

As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.

Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.

So raiders out there, dont just copy everything from Snowcrows. You and your raid is not like them and will never be, so instead of copying their speedkill meta find out what works for your raid and adjust your raid according to your playstyle.

 

SnowCrows does theorycrafting, and figure the best build to play in Raids. I'm not too sure how theory crafting is destroying raids. You also have to take into consideration that this game as moved from a traditional MMORPG with raid release to a speedclearing game almost due to its slow content release.

 

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, tim.4596 said:

 

SnowCrows does theorycrafting, and figure the best build to play in Raids. I'm not too sure how theory crafting is destroying raids. You also have to take into consideration that this game as moved from a traditional MMORPG with raid release to a speedclearing game almost due to its slow content release.

 

 

Its been 6months pretty sure the OP dont care anymore.

[anna.5487]

Look, like in everything. common sense has to be used. I tried to do a strike on my Harb with a build I was confident to get 12k in OW solo. I did 4k in the strike, it was depressing, and we failed due to a pug made from overconfident people like me. After spending 15 minutes researching the strike and the raid builds, and using the help of a guildie with audio, we did the strike easily and I was on 4th place as dps. The snowcrows builds are OK. For my main I can do my own stuff, but for the rest of the classes I noticed I'm better starting from the snowcrows builds and working around  if needed, with minor changes you can trade some dps for sustain without much trouble.

[Blumpf.2518]

 

On 5/10/2021 at 12:36 AM, Linken.6345 said:

 

Its been 6months pretty sure the OP dont care anymore.

 

I realized that its pointless.

And instead of wasting time here now, i help friends and guildmates instead of trying to tell random strangers, especially beginners, that there are better and easier alternatives in raids.

Its pointless, cause when i say "Hey, i see youre having some problems, why dont you try this and this...." then the answer is either "But ... snowcrows ... but meta ... but Snowcrows!" or "No one tells me how to play. Go Eff yourself!"

 

If they think that theyre as good as snowcrows, fine, let em play the builds and compositions that allow snowcrows to speedkill stuff. But from my experience and all the kitten random wanabe snowcrows raids i joined, its that the problem for this groups is always: Bad Boon Uptime cause not enough Boonduration, not enough DPS to phase bosses while boons are up, not enough heal so people go down and have to be rezzed, therefore DPS sucks and then boons suck and heal sucks and the raid wipes, or its just people not knowing their classes and playing bad with bad rotations and low DPS, or everything at the same time.

 

But hey, not my problem anymore. I have my weekly fullclear guild, my friends and guildmates and i dont care about randoms anymore. If they wanna learn it the hard way, fine, not my problem. I tried to help em, but failed, cause they dont want the help. So, let em suck and die and wipe with snowcrows gear and builds, and then give up raiding , i dont care anymore.

 

[BumboJumbo.1308]

17 minutes ago, Blumpf.2518 said:

 

 

I realized that its pointless.

And instead of wasting time here now, i help friends and guildmates instead of trying to tell random strangers, especially beginners, that there are better and easier alternatives in raids.

Its pointless, cause when i say "Hey, i see youre having some problems, why dont you try this and this...." then the answer is either "But ... snowcrows ... but meta ... but Snowcrows!" or "No one tells me how to play. Go Eff yourself!"

 

If they think that theyre as good as snowcrows, fine, let em play the builds and compositions that allow snowcrows to speedkill stuff. But from my experience and all the kitten random wanabe snowcrows raids i joined, its that the problem for this groups is always: Bad Boon Uptime cause not enough Boonduration, not enough DPS to phase bosses while boons are up, not enough heal so people go down and have to be rezzed, therefore DPS sucks and then boons suck and heal sucks and the raid wipes, or its just people not knowing their classes and playing bad with bad rotations and low DPS, or everything at the same time.

 

But hey, not my problem anymore. I have my weekly fullclear guild, my friends and guildmates and i dont care about randoms anymore. If they wanna learn it the hard way, fine, not my problem. I tried to help em, but failed, cause they dont want the help. So, let em suck and die and wipe with snowcrows gear and builds, and then give up raiding , i dont care anymore.

 

Biggest true in the history of truths. 

Honestly I think it would be good if the top end players that create those complex Meta builds would gate keep those builds. And instead advertise low intensity builds. And/or creating easy enough builds that allows for sacrificing dps to upkeep boons, healing, utility, etc.

If anet creates absurdly hard content (like harvest temple cm, no hate) then I can understand advertising complex builds that reach 30-40k dps. But I don't think many people do challanging content to begin with.

[Zaret.1450]

you have to understand something, most people dont want to do anything themselves, just look at how many people rage that raid comunity is full of toxicity, how were elitists and how needing a build and to learn a rota is extremely bad and elitist, and that is with snow crows having builds like mech, spectre, etc, builds that even if not mastered can give pretty good dmg for randoms and pugs, sc gives you the build, writes you down the rotation, a bit more and theyd have to kill the boss for you, and some people still say its imposible to enter a raid, were elitist, etc etc, i agree that just copi paste death brain is not good but people that want to master something will do it regardless of sc.

[Dib.4612]

Disagreed. SC builds are not just for speedclears. Plus, they make boss to boss guides on what utlity to bring in order to keep your group supported (read: alive).