Get Rid of Glicko PvP Matchmaking System and Change Rating Gain/Loss

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I've been saying it for awhile now:

2. Tie rating/badge system to AT seasons that begin and end with monthly AT..

Why rating should go to ATs, as far as i know ATs are running only at specific hours and also you cannot soloQ for them, i am against that , becuase forcing people to be at the game at specific hour in order to compete for rating is not good idea in my opinion. Also i prefer to have the soloQ option, forced to make a team everytime when i want to do ranked is not very healthy for the game specially for new people, as example WoW can be used, it does not have soloQ, people there are asking for it from years and a lot players are leaving the pvp becuase they are spending more time in searching for people in LFG that actually playing the game(one of the reasons i left WoW) also there are other issues related to the teamQ only ranked pvp.

In short in my opinion based on the experience which i have in pvp in many other mmorpgs ranked pvp should not be connected to the ATs .

About the rewards i prefer to be able to gain gold from ranked because in that way i am not forced to do content which i do not want for gold, but even if it is removed thats not a big problem for me personally.

Then you can form a team like all of the other competitive players if you really care to compete in less reward more rating based environment.

I'm sorry but it just needs to happen at this point for those of us who want good competitive games again, and have the rating actually mean something.

Thats the problem mate, i dont want to stay hours in LFG as in WoW, and WoW has much bigger player base and you still have more hours in LFG than actually playing pvp. YOu have ATs at the moment so you can have your "true" competitive experience there, no need to ruin rated pvp, for those of us which are playing more casually (which i believe is much more ppl than the high end AT players).

You said you are playing casually so you probably aren't deep enough into the community to recognize how much match manipulation & botting is happening in the ranked mode solo/duo only. If you had recognized it, you'd be agreeing with me once you realized solid 5 man queues full of humans is the only way to stop garbage match making.

TeamQ only, has a lot of problems of its own, i can give couple of examples if you want:

1. People will mostly search people with higher rating than them in LFG and shunt people with lower rating,
2. People will accept you in group only if you play meta build or comp specific build and reject you if you dont,
3. People will leave after 1 lost match, so you will have to again spend time in LFG in order to replace.

Looks like you don't run ATs often, if you ever have at all. Nothing you've said here is even remotely true.

1. No one searches higher rating than them in LFG because LFG groups are labeled things like "Plat +" and everyone in the Plat + community knows each other, so if people join who are not Plat +, they get kicked. If people join who you don't know, you badge check. Same goes for w/e LFG you post. It's actually rather easy to form a team for AT in the LFG. If you had ever tried it even once, you'd already know this.
2. No one boots anyone out based on "meta builds" they boot people out based on the merit of your personal reputation and/or current rating.
3. People don't leave after 1 loss. In all the time I've spent in ATs, which is a lot of time at this point, I've seen that happen maybe twice. Maybe it's a problem for "Anyone Join Groups", but groups who are even Gold + do not have this problem. People at Gold + levels who join an AT know what they're getting themselves into beforehand. They are joining not for big rewards but rather for good games, and they have an open willingness to get trashed by Plat + teams because they want to learn and get better. <- This is the difference between yolo/duo gamble dice throw ranked reward casual play, and competitive AT team play. And might I add HOW MUCH LOWER the toxicity is in AT play for this very reason.

All of this problems are seen in WoW (which i repeat has much bigger player base) and people are leaving because of it, From the last report which i have seen 42% of the WoW player base stop playing (just in about 2 month period) and very big part of that is because of the pvp and LFG related issues.

Stop comparing this to WoW. What's going on here is nothing like WoW. It really isn't.

Last month of WoW playing i spended around 100 hours in the game and 60-70 hours were just waiting in LFG searching for teammates , i dont want to experience that anymore, thats why most of the WoW PvP community are asking for soloQ from years, specially the new and casual people , because they are suffering the most from teamQ only system, so i suggest lets learn from other game's mistakes instead of doing the same mistakes which are did there, which would lead to even worse results in pvp participation.

You should actually try LFGing an AT team in GW2 instead of assumin everything is like WoW. You'd see that the LFG AT team will fill up usually within about 2 or 3 minutes with a Gold + listing. You go Plat + and it starts turning into 10+ minute organization through LFG. You go Plat 2 + and then it begins turning into a 20+ minute organize sometimes requiring personal invites to fill the roster.

I also think it's hilarious that you say "we should learn from other games" yet you literally said "WoW's population is much higher. WoW does not have solo queue pvp." Did it ever occur to you that the reason why GW2's population was so low is because the conversion to solo/duo drove people off with the problems it created? If you had been an avid player all of these years and had somewhere near 20,000 games played, you'd already recognize this fact. Many players up and left GW2 pvp when they realized how much math manipulation solo/duo ranked brought into the game.

If you don't know what smurfing, synching, throwing, multi box botting, win trading is, you have no idea what's going on my man. The leaderboards are ruined in GW2 because of all this. The solo queue mode you love so dearly as a casual player is almost entirely responsible for enabling these problems. If you don't understand why, well that's a topic for a different thread.

From what is seen in WoW easily can be concluded that teamQ system only ,work good only for hard core players and it is very punishing from casual and new players, thats why i am strongly against removing soloQ from ranked or making ranked games only at specific hours. About the rewards in ranked as i said i prefer to be able to make gold in ranked pvp, but if they are removed that wont stop me from playing pvp since thats the content which i enjoy the most.

And that's why I said that the hardcore players can go do their 5 man in ATs, and then everyone else can go to Unranked with Ranked rewards for their mixed queue system. You aren't understanding that the suggestion I propose would help players like yourself. It would put the try hards in a different fish tank where they are trying to compete for clout of rating and badges and MAT wins. Everyone else can have fun making their gold and getting pips for shards and w/e in Unranked that has Ranked rewards shuffled to it.

Look man, it sounds like you want to compete for rating which is why you argued against me to begin with. But honestly, if you don't want that rating enough to take 3 minutes form a team through an LFG to help support the purpose of the rating actually reflecting real player skill in a 5 man environment rather than a bunch of dice throw gambling in yolo/duo, maybe you shouldn't be worried about rating at all. Because the rest of us want a system that means something again, where matches are clean.

Solo queue is casual man. Rating has no place in a casual environment full of bots and synch queue match manipulation. Sorry but it doesn't.

Rating/Badge system needs to be slid over to AT monthly seasons that begin and end with MAT. Ranked rewards can be slid over to Unranked.

Please dont get me wrong i am not saying that the current system is the best, just from what i have seen teamQ only system is much MUCH worse.

You haven't seen anything. You keep referencing WoW and saying things that if you had ever played a 5 man team even once, you'd know weren't true. I mean, say what you want man. Just stop making assumptions about what's going on in GW2 based off of WoW. These are two very different lists of problems.

I dont have time atm to reponce to everything , but i will a bit later, but i want to mention that personal attacks as " you dont know nothing" do not back up your point but only show that you dont like people disagreing with you, if you cannot back up your point with facts or logic dont even try.

I will respond to everything a bit later, but lets keep the conversation constructive.

I simply pointed out things you claim that are wrong. It's not an attack if you're just being corrected on things that everyone else knows is true.

Look man, no one criticizes this game more than the guys in the pvp subforum, we get it. But a lot of what you are saying is just not accurate. It seems you're creating a hypothesis on GW2 based on your experience with WoW. Literally anyone who runs an AT or two every couple of days can see this in your post.

Arguing with me here will not be constructive to anything other than some itch you have to do it. So this will be my last post to you.

Oh and one more thing. I did not say "You don't know nothing". I said "You haven't seen anything" . <- Consider the difference in emotional inflection between these two catch phrases, and that maybe you are seeing what you want to see and not necessarily what something actually is. What you did here is very similar to you arguing with me about the practicalities of how the AT community works, as if you had these facts that you KNEW, but in reality it is quite clear that you lack experience & immersion time participating in organized team play in GW2, which you pretty much stated this yourself in your own response. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Just don't argue facts about something like that from the sheer standpoint WoW hypothesis only. literally everything you've come at me with has seriously been a hypothetical comparison to WoW. I mean.. yeah alright, w/e.

Do what you want man.

[razaelll.8324]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@razaelll.8324 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I've been saying it for awhile now:

2. Tie rating/badge system to AT seasons that begin and end with monthly AT..

Why rating should go to ATs, as far as i know ATs are running only at specific hours and also you cannot soloQ for them, i am against that , becuase forcing people to be at the game at specific hour in order to compete for rating is not good idea in my opinion. Also i prefer to have the soloQ option, forced to make a team everytime when i want to do ranked is not very healthy for the game specially for new people, as example WoW can be used, it does not have soloQ, people there are asking for it from years and a lot players are leaving the pvp becuase they are spending more time in searching for people in LFG that actually playing the game(one of the reasons i left WoW) also there are other issues related to the teamQ only ranked pvp.

In short in my opinion based on the experience which i have in pvp in many other mmorpgs ranked pvp should not be connected to the ATs .

About the rewards i prefer to be able to gain gold from ranked because in that way i am not forced to do content which i do not want for gold, but even if it is removed thats not a big problem for me personally.

Then you can form a team like all of the other competitive players if you really care to compete in less reward more rating based environment.

I'm sorry but it just needs to happen at this point for those of us who want good competitive games again, and have the rating actually mean something.

Thats the problem mate, i dont want to stay hours in LFG as in WoW, and WoW has much bigger player base and you still have more hours in LFG than actually playing pvp. YOu have ATs at the moment so you can have your "true" competitive experience there, no need to ruin rated pvp, for those of us which are playing more casually (which i believe is much more ppl than the high end AT players).

You said you are playing casually so you probably aren't deep enough into the community to recognize how much match manipulation & botting is happening in the ranked mode solo/duo only. If you had recognized it, you'd be agreeing with me once you realized solid 5 man queues full of humans is the only way to stop garbage match making.

TeamQ only, has a lot of problems of its own, i can give couple of examples if you want:

1. People will mostly search people with higher rating than them in LFG and shunt people with lower rating,
2. People will accept you in group only if you play meta build or comp specific build and reject you if you dont,
3. People will leave after 1 lost match, so you will have to again spend time in LFG in order to replace.

Looks like you don't run ATs often, if you ever have at all. Nothing you've said here is even remotely true.

1. No one searches higher rating than them in LFG because LFG groups are labeled things like "Plat +" and everyone in the Plat + community knows each other, so if people join who are not Plat +, they get kicked. If people join who you don't know, you badge check. Same goes for w/e LFG you post. It's actually rather easy to form a team for AT in the LFG. If you had ever tried it even once, you'd already know this.
2. No one boots anyone out based on "meta builds" they boot people out based on the merit of your personal reputation and/or current rating.
3. People don't leave after 1 loss. In all the time I've spent in ATs, which is a lot of time at this point, I've seen that happen maybe twice. Maybe it's a problem for "Anyone Join Groups", but groups who are even Gold + do not have this problem. People at Gold + levels who join an AT know what they're getting themselves into beforehand. They are joining not for big rewards but rather for good games, and they have an open willingness to get trashed by Plat + teams because they want to learn and get better. <- This is the difference between yolo/duo gamble dice throw ranked reward casual play, and competitive AT team play. And might I add HOW MUCH LOWER the toxicity is in AT play for this very reason.

All of this problems are seen in WoW (which i repeat has much bigger player base) and people are leaving because of it, From the last report which i have seen 42% of the WoW player base stop playing (just in about 2 month period) and very big part of that is because of the pvp and LFG related issues.

Stop comparing this to WoW. What's going on here is nothing like WoW. It really isn't.

Last month of WoW playing i spended around 100 hours in the game and 60-70 hours were just waiting in LFG searching for teammates , i dont want to experience that anymore, thats why most of the WoW PvP community are asking for soloQ from years, specially the new and casual people , because they are suffering the most from teamQ only system, so i suggest lets learn from other game's mistakes instead of doing the same mistakes which are did there, which would lead to even worse results in pvp participation.

You should actually try LFGing an AT team in GW2 instead of assumin everything is like WoW. You'd see that the LFG AT team will fill up usually within about 2 or 3 minutes with a Gold + listing. You go Plat + and it starts turning into 10+ minute organization through LFG. You go Plat 2 + and then it begins turning into a 20+ minute organize sometimes requiring personal invites to fill the roster.

I also think it's hilarious that you say "we should learn from other games" yet you literally said "WoW's population is much higher. WoW does not have solo queue pvp." Did it ever occur to you that the reason why GW2's population was so low is because the conversion to solo/duo drove people off with the problems it created? If you had been an avid player all of these years and had somewhere near 20,000 games played, you'd already recognize this fact. Many players up and left GW2 pvp when they realized how much math manipulation solo/duo ranked brought into the game.

If you don't know what smurfing, synching, throwing, multi box botting, win trading is, you have no idea what's going on my man. The leaderboards are ruined in GW2 because of all this. The solo queue mode you love so dearly as a casual player is almost entirely responsible for enabling these problems. If you don't understand why, well that's a topic for a different thread.

From what is seen in WoW easily can be concluded that teamQ system only ,work good only for hard core players and it is very punishing from casual and new players, thats why i am strongly against removing soloQ from ranked or making ranked games only at specific hours. About the rewards in ranked as i said i prefer to be able to make gold in ranked pvp, but if they are removed that wont stop me from playing pvp since thats the content which i enjoy the most.

And that's why I said that the hardcore players can go do their 5 man in ATs, and then everyone else can go to Unranked with Ranked rewards for their mixed queue system. You aren't understanding that the suggestion I propose would help players like yourself. It would put the try hards in a different fish tank where they are trying to compete for clout of rating and badges and MAT wins. Everyone else can have fun making their gold and getting pips for shards and w/e in Unranked that has Ranked rewards shuffled to it.

Look man, it sounds like you want to compete for rating which is why you argued against me to begin with. But honestly, if you don't want that rating enough to take 3 minutes form a team through an LFG to help support the purpose of the rating actually reflecting real player skill in a 5 man environment rather than a bunch of dice throw gambling in yolo/duo, maybe you shouldn't be worried about rating at all. Because the rest of us want a system that means something again, where matches are clean.

Solo queue is casual man. Rating has no place in a casual environment full of bots and synch queue match manipulation. Sorry but it doesn't.

Rating/Badge system needs to be slid over to AT monthly seasons that begin and end with MAT. Ranked rewards can be slid over to Unranked.

Please dont get me wrong i am not saying that the current system is the best, just from what i have seen teamQ only system is much MUCH worse.

You haven't seen anything. You keep referencing WoW and saying things that if you had ever played a 5 man team even once, you'd know weren't true. I mean, say what you want man. Just stop making assumptions about what's going on in GW2 based off of WoW. These are two very different lists of problems.

I dont have time atm to reponce to everything , but i will a bit later, but i want to mention that personal attacks as " you dont know nothing" do not back up your point but only show that you dont like people disagreing with you, if you cannot back up your point with facts or logic dont even try.

I will respond to everything a bit later, but lets keep the conversation constructive.

I simply pointed out things you claim that are wrong. It's not an attack if you're just being corrected on things that everyone else knows is true.

Look man, no one criticizes this game more than the guys in the pvp subforum, we get it. But a lot of what you are saying is just not accurate. It seems you're creating a hypothesis on GW2 based on your experience with WoW. Literally anyone who runs an AT or two every couple of days can see this in your post.

Arguing with me here will not be constructive to anything other than some itch you have to do it. So this will be my last post to you.

Oh and one more thing. I did not say "You don't know nothing". I said "You haven't seen anything" . <- Consider the difference in emotional inflection between these two catch phrases, and that maybe you are seeing what you want to see and not necessarily what something actually is. What you did here is very similar to you arguing with me about the practicalities of how the AT community works, as if you had these facts that you KNEW, but in reality it is quite clear that you lack experience & immersion time participating in organized team play in GW2, which you pretty much stated this yourself in your own response. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Just don't argue facts about something like that from the sheer standpoint WoW hypothesis only. literally everything you've come at me with has seriously been a hypothetical comparison to WoW. I mean.. yeah alright, w/e.

Do what you want man..I simply pointed out things you claim that are wrong.You didnt back up your claim with anything, which do NOT prove me wrong , but only shows that we disagree with each other, how did you prove me wrong exactly?

Solo queue is casual man. Rating has no place in a casual environment full of bots and synch queue match manipulation. Sorry but it doesn't.looks like you dont know the difference of ranked and unranked.

lack experience & immersion time participating in organized team play in GW2,i never stated that i have experience in it. I stated that teamQ only system probably wont be that good as you think it will be , because of reason which we already saw in different games(not only WOW every mmo with just teamQ has this problems so i dont think GW2 will be any different). It does not work in games which are much bigger than GW2 , what exactly makes you believe that it will be different in GW2?

If you don't know what smurfing, synching, throwing, multi box botting, win trading is, you have no idea what's going on my man.all of this is happening in WoW which dont have soloQ , so yea looks like teamQ is not the answer to that either. Also as far as i know there was some cases of win trading in ATs too...

Bots are not in pvp because of soloQ , but because they can gain easy money (gold)from it, so removing rewards will definitely help in that regards, so no need to remove soloQ to get out the bots

Arguing with me here will not be constructive to anything other than some itch you have to do it. So this will be my last post to you.

so you dont even want to read my point of view and my arguments , which only prove that you just dont like people which disagree with you. Good , then certainly the conversation with you is just pointless.

I just hope GW2 developers dont listen to you blindly. You have very good suggestions in other posts, but this one is not one of them in my opinion.

Have a great day and be healthy mate!

[Flumek.9043]

@memausz.7264 said:For the few of us who are still playing PvP (because people are leaving the game mode in droves - just look at the NA leaderboard.... no one above 1900 or even 1800 at this point), ArenaNet seriously needs to adjust the rating gain/loss from winning/losing PvP ranked matches. So many of us are frustrated and get -21 for losing games that cannot be carried and yet our 200 lower rated teammates only lose 8 rating points. It really should be even across the whole team - that way, the better players will win more games and go up over time, whereas the weaker players will continue to lose themselves into their proper division. It's the best you can do with such a low population that 6 minute ranked queues are normal and you still end up with outmatched games. :/

There isnt a solution for low playerbase.

Youre always playing with the next best player available. Doesnt matter if youre 200elo apart, it simply means theres NOBODY from 1800-1600 there.

Also, Leaderboards NEVER produce actual tournament winner in nr1 spots.Its always a reliable, bit cheezy, soloq hero that climbs the ladder playing ladder strats, where as the organized team players usually place in middle of top spots.So dont lose nerves over who gets nr1 tittle if we all know the best player is like on spot nr20.

Only thing they can do is maybe lower legendary tier, but its just cosmetic change.

P.S.Some matches arent meant to be winnable.The wurms tryharding and going 68-0 in 3v3 also isnt fun for long. Its actually more stressfull, grindy and stupid cheezy and is just stat padding.Play the game how u enjoy it and stop when ur not having fun anymore.

[Marxx.5021]

There isnt a solution for low playerbase.

Not for GW2 PvP anyway. Anet gave up on it a long time ago ...

[Vancho.8750]

I just wish the game didn't punish me for playing it, like pre deciding the game before it start by stacking one team over the other since I have played X amount of games before and now I have to solo it even though it is supposed be a team game , because the matchmaker considers you 200+ rating over your current one. Get a shit start bam now you are smerfing for god knows how many games till you reach your usual rating, half of your team is probably mouse skill clicking while the enemy team has all LB titles and after a while the game switches phases and now you are on the LB title team for some ez 500 0.The matchmaker is so predictable , that you can tell what will happen in the next game you queue in.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The actual rating algorithm in matchmaking used isn't that bad. The problem lies in how it handles Duo Q / Party Q, failing to take many factors into account.

This especially well said! Personally and I can imagine many other like-minded people have stopped PvP due to this, the more I was going up in rank and the more duo I would meet in the opposite team... sometimes 2x duo and the game would still punish me with -22 pts for losing ...no point in keeping up with that charade

[Arheundel.6451]

@Flumek.9043 said:

@"memausz.7264" said:For the few of us who are still playing PvP (because people are leaving the game mode in droves - just look at the NA leaderboard.... no one above 1900 or even 1800 at this point), ArenaNet seriously needs to adjust the rating gain/loss from winning/losing PvP ranked matches. So many of us are frustrated and get -21 for losing games that cannot be carried and yet our 200 lower rated teammates only lose 8 rating points. It really should be even across the whole team - that way, the better players will win more games and go up over time, whereas the weaker players will continue to lose themselves into their proper division. It's the best you can do with such a low population that 6 minute ranked queues are normal and you still end up with outmatched games. :/

There isnt a solution for low playerbase.

Youre always playing with the next best player available. Doesnt matter if youre 200elo apart, it simply means theres NOBODY from 1800-1600 there.

Also, Leaderboards NEVER produce actual tournament winner in nr1 spots.Its always a reliable, bit cheezy, soloq hero that climbs the ladder playing ladder strats, where as the organized team players usually place in middle of top spots.So dont lose nerves over who gets nr1 tittle if we all know the best player is like on spot nr20.

Only thing they can do is maybe lower legendary tier, but its just cosmetic change.

P.S.Some matches arent meant to be winnable.The wurms tryharding and going 68-0 in 3v3 also isnt fun for long. Its actually more stressfull, grindy and stupid cheezy and is just stat padding.Play the game how u enjoy it and stop when ur not having fun anymore.

The solution would be to make players get better on their own terms...and not trying to climb the ladder while surfing on somebody else wave but that again would go against the "everybody a winner" mentality instilled by Anet since season 4 after the cries of players incapable of rising through the ranks with their own effort.

They changed the MMR to the current one where new players start at 1200 after the tears of players who would start and finish in Bronze during season 1 to 3....that's your reason behind low playerbase

[aymnad.9023]

I have a different opinion on this. I find it fine for what it does. For the past year I have been playing different professions and had to make progress through different tiers. Every time I was getting better / more comfortable with the build I could feel my allies and opponents also being better.It has a few flaws but most of them come from people’s expectations (and a lot can be tied to the team comp / roles).The second thing you are describing is way more specific and linked to a huge ranking difference between the team members. I play solo (EU) more than 90% of the time and mostly around 21 until midnight during the week or the afternoon during the we. I only lost those amounts of points when playing with a silver guildmate, never in solo even when I was on my “previous” main (obviously after the start of the season where you can loose way more :)).