Is balance THE only issue?

[Crozame.4098]

A more balancing game might make the tournaments more entertainting and fun to watch and participate, but the majority of players play ranked games, and therefore, I am not sure whether the balance is the only issue. It is much more complicated than say WOW 3v3 and 2v2 deathmatch. One important factor is that the maps have more objectives and hence map rotation is more important than mechanical skills.

Therefore, to me, the bigger issue is that the majority of players do not know how sPvP works. And to makes things worse, many bad players would not listen to advices from good players. Sind was told that thief is not dps and hence should take close; some players just think node is everything, and hence tunel vision only on the node; some players think should get the beast every time its up, even when there is a tf going on near it~ And the arguement goes -- its 25 points and have stats. The scrary thing here is that they think they are completely correct.

But this is not the players fault, they do not have any source getting useful information of what to do in pvp. ANET should provide some tips in the mist to at least explain some slightly higher than the very basic concepts such as: bleeding, kiting 1v2 is better than dying on node (except a few cases where the score is 490, and hence you just need to hold a bit to win, or you need to get the bell to secure the win), the concept of snowballing etc etc.

Otherwise, no matter how balance is the game is, its still unfun to play if most players does not know what to do.

also, remove the total game played and PvP level component of the matching algorithm.

[LuRkEr.9462]

Not really feasible with how many dozens of scenarios there are. PvP in any game is mostly about playing and learning the different aspects of the game. Map rotation doesn't matter that much as anyone at a high level of pvp for a tournament knows the map mechanics.It is up to the player of any game with pvp to learn from various resources (youtube, wiki, etc.) to get them selves better through knowledge and practice. Its not up to the developers.

[Khalisto.5780]

no, we have bots and plenty match manipulation

ppl being bad is only problematic when you have such a low pop, and 300+ rating gap between players in a match

if we had a higher pop this guy with weird idea would just be at his gold tier playing with ppl of his skill level

yes, anet could give some tips, but you have to assume they just won't and ppl will have to rely on outside sources

yes, ppl are also stubborn, i could teach a bunch of ppl, but silver guy won't listen to me cuz i'm not top 10, or i'm just plat 1

there are plenty sources to learn, godsofpvp guides, vallun guides, streamer of "class you want to learn" are all very useful, you could also try to ask better players in game, they usually willing to help you.

[Crozame.4098]

@LuRkEr.9462 said:Not really feasible with how many dozens of scenarios there are. PvP in any game is mostly about playing and learning the different aspects of the game. Map rotation doesn't matter that much as anyone at a high level of pvp for a tournament knows the map mechanics.It is up to the player of any game with pvp to learn from various resources (youtube, wiki, etc.) to get them selves better through knowledge and practice. Its not up to the developers.

Explaining what is snowballing is feasible. Explaining surving in most of the cases are more important than standing on node and die fast is feasible. Explaining should not plus 1 as a support is feasible. etc etc.

Therefore your statement is wrong.

[Virdo.1540]

hackers > bugs > Bots > balancing

[Crozame.4098]

@"Khalisto.5780" said:no, we have bots and plenty match manipulation

ppl being bad is only problematic when you have such a low pop, and 300+ rating gap between players in a match

if we had a higher pop this guy with weird idea would just be at his gold tier playing with ppl of his skill level

yes, anet could give some tips, but you have to assume they just won't and ppl will have to rely on outside sources

yes, ppl are also stubborn, i could teach a bunch of ppl, but silver guy won't listen to me cuz i'm not top 10, or i'm just plat 1

there are plenty sources to learn, godsofpvp guides, vallun guides, streamer of "class you want to learn" are all very useful, you could also try to ask better players in game, they usually willing to help you.

bots and match manipulation further means balance alone does not work...And giving general information of how to play at least does not hurt -- weakly dominant strategy.They wont even listen to sind, not to say only a p1 guy, and many p1 guys also does not understand map rotation, many of them get there becuase they are mechanically not that bad, not because they rotate correctly.

[Crozame.4098]

@Virdo.1540 said:hackers > bugs > Bots > balancing

I mean, if players understand the games, they can easily get out of silver or gold, and hence significantly reduce the amount of bots in their game.

[Dawdler.8521]

The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

^This...the older your account and the harder you get punished for losing an unwinnable match...ofc I would leave and like me, I suspect many others left

[Crozame.4098]

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

This only happens if you are around top 10. P1 the rating is pretty balanced, p2 also, at the moment this only happens in P3 I think. But this is less problematic, because there are only a few p3 right now

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

Due to working nights I queue at 7am-10am loads of games.I get +5-6 for win, and -25-30 for loses.I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrateI soloQ btw.This doesnt phase me all that much since I dont give a rats ass about my ranking but if someone actually cared, this would be offputting.Imagine playing 8 games in the day, its all 8 you can play today, doing good. Winning 6/8 and losing ranking XD

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrate

^ That right there is the main crux of what is pissing people off right now.

I also experienced something similar for about the first 40 or 50 games I had this season.

At some point I had noticed that I had over a 70% win rate but I was only 1510 rating. I've never had such a high win ratio but such a low rating before.

And no, nothing special is going on with my queues to create a situation where I am always with a lower partner than me and we are trying to farm low rates early morning. Most of these games had been played in NA prime time as a solo queue.

So I dunno what's going on lately that is causing rating margins to be ridiculously low, but it is beginning to get to be unrealistic to play into p2 margins unless you are in top 20 or maybe even top 10.

Feels bad man.

[Vancho.8750]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrate

^ That right there is the main crux of what is pissing people off right now.

I also experienced something similar for about the first 40 or 50 games I had this season.

At some point I had noticed that I had over a 70% win rate but I was only 1510 rating. I've never had such a high win ratio but such a low rating before.

And no, nothing special is going on with my queues to create a situation where I am always with a lower partner than me and we are trying to farm low rates early morning. Most of these games had been played in NA prime time as a solo queue.

So I dunno what's going on lately that is causing rating margins to be ridiculously low, but it is beginning to get to be unrealistic to play into p2 margins unless you are in top 20 or maybe even top 10.

Feels bad man.

Did you play the deathmatch season just for the lolz with kinda shitty rating? Cause I think the matchmaker takes in consideration, my QA senses are tingling about that.Other option is you hit the next x amount of matches played and the system added another 100+ to your matchmaker rating .Or the population so fucking low that every match is stacked and when you win you win with people on your level and when you lose your team mates are low rated while you have more rating then the opponents so you get shanked even though you were on the underdog team.To tell you the truth im getting more consistent matches in unranked even though people run around with meme builds.

[Crozame.4098]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

Due to working nights I queue at 7am-10am loads of games.I get +5-6 for win, and -25-30 for loses.I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrateI soloQ btw.This doesnt phase me all that much since I dont give a rats kitten about my ranking but if someone actually cared, this would be offputting.Imagine playing 8 games in the day, its all 8 you can play today, doing good. Winning 6/8 and losing ranking XD

If people actually cared maybe they would not solo q at that time... This is normal because population is even lower at that time...

[Crozame.4098]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrate

^ That right there is the main crux of what is pissing people off right now.

I also experienced something similar for about the first 40 or 50 games I had this season.

At some point I had noticed that I had over a 70% win rate but I was only 1510 rating. I've never had such a high win ratio but such a low rating before.

And no, nothing special is going on with my queues to create a situation where I am always with a lower partner than me and we are trying to farm low rates early morning. Most of these games had been played in NA prime time as a solo queue.

So I dunno what's going on lately that is causing rating margins to be ridiculously low, but it is beginning to get to be unrealistic to play into p2 margins unless you are in top 20 or maybe even top 10.

Feels bad man.

Its funny that my post is about suggesting ANET to put more information about sPvP somewhere in the mist, but people complaining about win ratio and rating...

1. I am based in EU, so I do not know and do not care what is the case in US. Maybe 1510 is quite high in US therefore, it is already quite hard to get there.

The source of this situation is that people find the game unfunny to play --> quit --> low population --> bad ques. Balance cannot address this. However, if players start to have a deeper understanding of rotations, roles etc, the games might be more enjoyable, regardless of the population. For example, suppose there are only 20 people playing sPvP, and all those players are from R55, Worms, TeaM USA, prestige etc. Then each game might be enjoyable because most of them know what to do in ranked games.

So you do not have the case where you hold 1v2 far but your teammates constantly feeds into mid or somewhere else, or 1v1ers rotation into TFs, supporters constantly rotation into 1v1s etc. And people understand not to push into a loosing 1v1 again and again. If people understand these, then the games will be more enjoyable for sure.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrate

^ That right there is the main crux of what is pissing people off right now.

I also experienced something similar for about the first 40 or 50 games I had this season.

At some point I had noticed that I had over a 70% win rate but I was only 1510 rating. I've never had such a high win ratio but such a low rating before.

And no, nothing special is going on with my queues to create a situation where I am always with a lower partner than me and we are trying to farm low rates early morning. Most of these games had been played in NA prime time as a solo queue.

So I dunno what's going on lately that is causing rating margins to be ridiculously low, but it is beginning to get to be unrealistic to play into p2 margins unless you are in top 20 or maybe even top 10.

Feels bad man.

yep, my last 2 gameswin +7, lose -16. it was at fucking 1520 rank, legit gold teritory and im expected to have 65%+ winrate to maintain it, no wonder half the pop abuses duoQ and alts lol.I cant imagine how shit it must be higher up prob legit +2, -50 or some shit lol. how else can you climb if not abuse MM

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

Due to working nights I queue at 7am-10am loads of games.I get +5-6 for win, and -25-30 for loses.I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrateI soloQ btw.This doesnt phase me all that much since I dont give a rats kitten about my ranking but if someone actually cared, this would be offputting.Imagine playing 8 games in the day, its all 8 you can play today, doing good. Winning 6/8 and losing ranking XD

If people actually cared maybe they would not solo q at that time... This is normal because population is even lower at that time...

its not normal, people are getting fucked over for so long they started telling themselves its normal.In most games you can climb with simply positive winrate, you need to be REALLY high up the ladder to be forced into maintaining positive winrate, and then its close to ~55% anyways. being forced to have 60%+ winrate to be barely above gold is stupid, heck if I duoQ with my g1/g2 friend, I legit get +3/-30, what then? have 90% winrate? XDheck my record with him was +1, then +2 then -56 :Dbut hey, JuSt DoNt PlAy WiTh HiM or just dont play at night lulW.I can play lol/csgo/hots/r6 or whatever at night and not lose half my rating within 1 hour lolsystem is fucked and people defending it are cringe

Whenever people tell you just dont do X and its fine, things usually go down hill.Just dont play lateJust dont duoQand even if you dont its still fucked just slightly less.People are forced to dodge good players, even if you can beat them its not worth the risk, why bust your ass trying to beat boyce, falan or whatever if you gonna get +7 or some stupid shit while you lose 30 on defeat.And since people start avoiding them the matchmaking keeps getting worse, so the problem gets bigger, people quit, less players MM even worse, shit patch, more people quit, MM gets worse. And it just spirals out of control lel

[Exile.8160]

Gonna add my 2 cents here. I been playing since beta and I had the most fun with a group of frineds in pvp when there was no limit to ranked q we played for years almost every night.

Now the group went down to 3 ppl at the best of day which is rare.

[Leonidrex.5649]

ill sum up what I think1 balance is bad2 meta is shit, im sick of all the bunkers, revive spam, and do it all builds ( cough rev cough )3 MM is bad4 people troll games5 people abuse bad MM to make it worse.6 bots in low ranksThere is no 1 reason why its this shit, fixing just 1 thing will help but not make a miracle.

[Marxx.5021]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:ill sum up what I think1 balance is bad2 meta is kitten, im sick of all the bunkers, revive spam, and do it all builds ( cough rev cough )3 MM is bad4 people troll games5 people abuse bad MM to make it worse.6 bots in low ranksThere is no 1 reason why its this kitten, fixing just 1 thing will help but not make a miracle.

Every single point is a direct result of game design and/or decicions Anet made. So nothing will change ...

[Crozame.4098]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

Due to working nights I queue at 7am-10am loads of games.I get +5-6 for win, and -25-30 for loses.I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrateI soloQ btw.This doesnt phase me all that much since I dont give a rats kitten about my ranking but if someone actually cared, this would be offputting.Imagine playing 8 games in the day, its all 8 you can play today, doing good. Winning 6/8 and losing ranking XD

If people actually cared maybe they would not solo q at that time... This is normal because population is even lower at that time...

its not normal, people are getting kitten over for so long they started telling themselves its normal.In most games you can climb with simply positive winrate, you need to be REALLY high up the ladder to be forced into maintaining positive winrate, and then its close to ~55% anyways. being forced to have 60%+ winrate to be barely above gold is stupid, heck if I duoQ with my g1/g2 friend, I legit get +3/-30, what then? have 90% winrate? XDheck my record with him was +1, then +2 then -56 :Dbut hey, JuSt DoNt PlAy WiTh HiM or just dont play at night lulW.I can play lol/csgo/hots/r6 or whatever at night and not lose half my rating within 1 hour lolsystem is kitten and people defending it are cringe

Whenever people tell you just dont do X and its fine, things usually go down hill.Just dont play lateJust dont duoQand even if you dont its still kitten just slightly less.People are forced to dodge good players, even if you can beat them its not worth the risk, why bust your kitten trying to beat boyce, falan or whatever if you gonna get +7 or some stupid kitten while you lose 30 on defeat.And since people start avoiding them the matchmaking keeps getting worse, so the problem gets bigger, people quit, less players MM even worse, kitten patch, more people quit, MM gets worse. And it just spirals out of control lel

Not if you solo q at those times mate... I am not defending it, but your case is an exception not norm....

[LuRkEr.9462]

@Crozame.4098 said:

@LuRkEr.9462 said:Not really feasible with how many dozens of scenarios there are. PvP in any game is mostly about playing and learning the different aspects of the game. Map rotation doesn't matter that much as anyone at a high level of pvp for a tournament knows the map mechanics.It is up to the player of any game with pvp to learn from various resources (youtube, wiki, etc.) to get them selves better through knowledge and practice. Its not up to the developers.

Explaining what is snowballing is feasible. Explaining surving in most of the cases are more important than standing on node and die fast is feasible. Explaining should not plus 1 as a support is feasible. etc etc.

Therefore your statement is wrong.

You are kind of proving my point with the etc etc. Its not that explaining it isn't feasible, its the amount of scenarios that would need explained. You can't make an all in one guide for pvp without it being many hours long or dozens of pages long. If a player wants to get better it is up to them to learn it, not up to the developer to teach it.

[Crozame.4098]

@LuRkEr.9462 said:

@Crozame.4098 said:

@LuRkEr.9462 said:Not really feasible with how many dozens of scenarios there are. PvP in any game is mostly about playing and learning the different aspects of the game. Map rotation doesn't matter that much as anyone at a high level of pvp for a tournament knows the map mechanics.It is up to the player of any game with pvp to learn from various resources (youtube, wiki, etc.) to get them selves better through knowledge and practice. Its not up to the developers.

Explaining what is snowballing is feasible. Explaining surving in most of the cases are more important than standing on node and die fast is feasible. Explaining should not plus 1 as a support is feasible. etc etc.

Therefore your statement is wrong.

You are kind of proving my point with the etc etc. Its not that explaining it isn't feasible, its the amount of scenarios that would need explained. You can't make an all in one guide for pvp without it being many hours long or dozens of pages long. If a player wants to get better it is up to them to learn it, not up to the developer to teach it.

No need to, I will give a few examples:

1. as a support do not +1 a 1v1 fight.
2. In most cases, survining is more important than dying on node -- except when you need to hold the node for a few more seconds to secure the win.
3. In most cases, securing a kill is better than letting them decap -- except when you need to hold the node for a few more seconds to secure the win.
4. When you are behind and you won a TF, try to get more kills and snowball, instead of giving up the momentum by killing beast or getting the pot areana, where you give your opponents time to regroup.
5. Do not run in tfs one by one, better to wait your teammates.

You can easlisy list 10 points, which most top players have already summerzied on the forums before.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:The reason casual players stopped enjoying sPVP long ago and player numbers dwindle to unsustainable was because ranked scoring force people to win 3 matches straight for every match lost just to maintain position.

But hush now its all about balance in tournaments yo.

I have dropped from 1650 to 1500 maintaning somewhere between 60-70% winrate

^ That right there is the main crux of what is pissing people off right now.

I also experienced something similar for about the first 40 or 50 games I had this season.

At some point I had noticed that I had over a 70% win rate but I was only 1510 rating. I've never had such a high win ratio but such a low rating before.

And no, nothing special is going on with my queues to create a situation where I am always with a lower partner than me and we are trying to farm low rates early morning. Most of these games had been played in NA prime time as a solo queue.

So I dunno what's going on lately that is causing rating margins to be ridiculously low, but it is beginning to get to be unrealistic to play into p2 margins unless you are in top 20 or maybe even top 10.

Feels bad man.

Or the population so kitten low that every match is stacked and when you win you win with people on your level and when you lose your team mates are low rated while you have more rating then the opponents so you get shanked even though you were on the underdog team.

You know what, I think that probably answers it right there.

Nowadays due to population, when you win you gain less, and when you lose you lose more. I'm sure that's exactly what it is.

[frareanselm.1925]

Op is 100% right. People dont know that they cant be 3 players holding the same point, that caping and decaping is thief and mesmer's task and others dont have to do their job.The other mistake is new players dont watch the minimnap never, they are losing zones and dont even notice that.Often I see suicidals that try to 1vs 4 giving free points to the enemy.Last day I saw a team mate dying like paper... the thing is he didnt knew he had to equip a pvp amulet....

Whenever you try to teach them they think they're the smartest and never accept an advice, all the contrary respond insulting.... that's the pathetic state of PUGS in pvp