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Why does WvW have the worst reward structure?


Firebeard.1746

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Anet thinks wvw players would spend more time semi afk than playing for their rewards, heck we originally had achievements that were calculated to take years to achieve. Yet they give participation to wall repairing and siege damage which just promotes that very thing, it should just be on just kills or caps, to always promote active game play. On the flip side they also have to worry about mass killings that players would just plan, like in OS when they just farmed the ultimate dominator title, or old eotm, hence why rewards have been gated to tracks instead of drops.

And not only do they give you one time gate with skirmish tickets, oh no no, you need memories of battle for the gear which is mostly from skirmish rewards and reward tracks, and also requiring you to unlock tiers of gear of reward track/exotic/ascended levels, with the sublime level needing 1200 500 wvw ranks also. Notice how a bunch of the living story ascended trinkets requires two currencies you can just freely farm in those zones? where is that for wvw ascended trinkets at the very least? Or at least change some currencies from memories of battle to testimonies of heroics?

Meanwhile bots afk farm in pve...

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@XenesisII.1540 said:Anet thinks wvw players would spend more time semi afk than playing for their rewards, heck we originally had achievements that were calculated to take years to achieve. Yet they give participation to wall repairing and siege damage which just promotes that very thing, it should just be on just kills or caps, to always promote active game play. On the flip side they also have to worry about mass killings that players would just plan, like in OS when they just farmed the ultimate dominator title, or old eotm, hence why rewards have been gated to tracks instead of drops.

And not only do they give you one time gate with skirmish tickets, oh no no, you need memories of battle for the gear which is mostly from skirmish rewards and reward tracks, and also requiring you to unlock tiers of gear of reward track/exotic/ascended levels, with the sublime level needing 1200 wvw ranks also. Notice how a bunch of the living story ascended trinkets requires two currencies you can just freely farm in those zones? where is that for wvw ascended trinkets at the very least? Or at least change some currencies from memories of battle to testimonies of heroics?

Meanwhile bots afk farm in pve...

Sublime chest needs 500 ranks.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"frareanselm.1925" said:The Grandmaster mark shard issue is CRAZY. You need a month playing WvW to obtain a complete mark, while in PvP you dont have to wait and can earn it in one day! This is not balanced Anet!

While i completely agree with you. Luckily you can craft those...

You can, but in order to do so, you need 500 in their respective crafting discipline, plus you need the materials for crafting. So, for someone that exclusively plays WvW, crafting them is just as time consuming, or more, depending on your luck, plus what and how much materials you manage to get from synths and reward tracks. Add to that the fact that most commanders and groups don't bother with synths and don't stop to collect them and well... You get the idea.

It's funny how basically every game mode is self sufficient AND enough to gear for other game modes (especially PvP which doesn't use standard armor sets, yet allows you to gear your characters for PvE), except WvW which is just "kind of " self sufficient - as in - you can exclusively play WvW and be "geared" but only in a grindy amount of months.

@Firebeard.1746 said:I would at least just flatten the Skirmish track skirmish tickets, instead of backloading them. I wouldn't immediately advocate accelerating them because rank does give you more pips per tick, but instead of backloading them and encouraging no-lifing it I'd flatten ticket gain per pip across chests. That's really the biggest issue imo. I would also crunch pip/h against an average sPVP queue and make sure the % legendary material/h is equal between the two for a given armor set for an average player. I don't think it's that hard. I just think it's insane they attach the most value to the least enjoyable game modes. If I could form a static for raiding, I would. That's really why hardcore raiders play in progression statics at least.

Frankly, this is probably the best idea i've heard in a long time.The system as it is - while i understand the idea behind it (reward more dedicated people) - is literally punishing to people with limited game time, and people new to the game mode. Which in turn - turns away newbies that would like to do WvW, but feel like their time is wasted reward wise. Especially because of the almost insulting amount of time newbies have to spend in WvW in order to finish diamond let alone repeat it. It's understandable in theory but it doesn't work in practice, and if anything, they should flatten the ticket gain across all tiers so that, even if some people can't spend the required amount of time for diamond, they can at least steadily gain tickets to get the WvW rewards. That way, newbies aren't being treated as low class citizens, while veterans with their rank bonuses and dedicated people aren't shortchanged for their dedication.

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@"Cuks.8241" said:I wouldn't mind if they added the extra pips for rank a bit earlier. A new player is getting what, 5 pips on average?

Yeah, that too... There's just no way for a new player to finish diamond except playing every day for hours in WvW. Most people can't afford that kind of playstyle.

I mean, a new player needs to play 40 hours a week if they have the bad luck of being the last server in the matchup, and if they are the starting rank.That's borderline insulting... This is supposed to be a game, not a job.Sure, it goes down with commitment modifier and more ranks, but i wonder how many people just said "lol no" when they saw the treatment and went to play other modes instead.

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The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

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@Dayra.7405 said:The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

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@LetoII.3782 said:The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

Things arent that simple.It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

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@Sylvyn.4750 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

Butsrs.

There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's kinda like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

Butsrs.

There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's
kinda
like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

Good point...we haven't seen it get to that point in WvW yet, but it's a possibility.

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@Solanum.6983 said:WvW rewards system is so strange to me.The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

Playtime & numbers are highly important to WvW health. More so than ktraining. AKA capping objectives.It actually makes sense when you put it in that context.

Like yeah, you could AFK for quite a while after a raid. Hell, during non-peak times most wouldn't even blame you for doing so.But the fact that you're in game, and in the mode. Means if your keep is attacked, even if you're half AFK, you're likely to help out.

Player psychology is an important thing to keep in mind.

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Anet gives WvW the best rewards structurePVE players start playing WvW"REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

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@Sylvyn.4750 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

Butsrs.

There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's
kinda
like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

Good point...we haven't seen it get to that point in WvW yet, but it's a possibility.

We did, in eotm.There was a point where doing actual pvp in eotm was referred to as griefing or harrassment. It's a lesson history will happily repeat at the merest rumor of WvW having a good GPH return.

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Restricting food to the provisioner and making the privisioner free and then just having a random skin unlock track/reward for the various currencies would go really, really far to be honest.

As it stands the problem with WvW isn't the rewards themselves insofar as the high upkeep cost to play that can only be provided from doing and spending money on PvE.It's also that PvE rewards have been crept pretty hard, and the login rewards permanent gold boosters are starting to really add up these days, causing people to get WAY more raw cash than intended, inflating prices.

Foods and other bonuses like Karka potions etc. are so significant that it creates a bigger disparity than a good chunk of armors, and most adults just don't have the time to sink tons of time into PvE in order to play the PvP content they want when PvP-centric games already exist.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:Restricting food to the provisioner and making the privisioner free and then just having a random skin unlock track/reward for the various currencies would go really, really far to be honest.

As it stands the problem with WvW isn't the rewards themselves insofar as the high upkeep cost to play that can only be provided from doing and spending money on PvE.It's also that PvE rewards have been crept pretty hard, and the login rewards permanent gold boosters are starting to really add up these days, causing people to get WAY more raw cash than intended, inflating prices.

Foods and other bonuses like Karka potions etc. are so significant that it creates a bigger disparity than a good chunk of armors, and most adults just don't have the time to sink tons of time into PvE in order to play the PvP content they want when PvP-centric games already exist.

You know that won't happen, ascended food is going to remain part of WvW. If it was meant to be PvE only there would not have been Wxp bonuses.

Adding a lvl 70 heal utility to the provisioner that functions similar to bountiful maintenance oil would go a long way. Adding the ascended food seeds to the synthesizers would go a long way as well.

I'm not sure why karka potions are still in WVW. They should have been gone long ago.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

Things arent that simple.It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

Things arent that simple.It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

50 (!) Tickets per emblem is ridiculous. Personally, i am sitting on 600 emblems of the avenger, many hav much more than that. Imagine that, with 50 skirmish tickets each... That is absurd.Emblems should get a merch price, thats it. Same as legendary spikes have. Skirmish tickets are timegated and limited per week, and thats ok.Anet made the structure of the pace of getting tickets like this because they wanted to honor veterans, they wanted to make people who spent countless hours playing this mode feel they deserve SOME kind of rewards.Btw, Ian's suggestion seems great for pvers only. In my opinion, it is bad.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:Anet gives WvW the best rewards structurePVE players start playing WvW"REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

And that is precisely the point. Well said.

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