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4/6 PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Low and behold, what did i say would happen?j4lY06G.png

Exactly. Like do they even understand how something as simple as healing scaling works in their own game? They just plop down the 20% extra healing and act like it's going to affect every healing skill equally, as if healing power coefficients suddenly just aren't a thing.

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@Kolzar.9567 said:Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated),

Ya, it's a little less than 60% outgoing. You have Aquamancer's Training (15%) + Monk Runes (10%) + Healing Arrows Buff (20%) which is 45% outgoing healing, just round to 50%.

442 Base Healing + 352 Coefficient Healing (1175 Healing Power) is 800 Healing Via Water Arrow. With the modifiers of 50% thats 800+400 which is 1200 from Water Arrow.

Remove Healing Power now, and you have 442 Base Healing + 0 coefficient Healing. That's 450 Healing via Water Arrow. With 50% Modifer's that's 450+225 which is 675 Healing from Water Arrow. In order to get 1200 from before, you need 150% Healing Modifiers. 100% (transfusion) +50% (Ele's traits)

So ya, my math is correct. To replace Menders, you'd need 100% additional outgoing healing. We only got 20%...so all supports have now incurred about a 50% nerf to all healing. They assume that people will take Sage's and Avatar's...Sure...so it's more like a 25-30% nerf for all supports, that are now forced to take Sage's or Avatar...Course this doesn't take into account low base healing and high coefficients. So in essence, the higher the base healing the less the nerf impacts you...

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As I said in the previous patch note I will support this change if there are regular adjustments which you seem to aim for. The change of the amulet + the loss of a sigil is a double nerf to support sustain. Maybe some teams will stack double off supports.

I would have loved to see some druid changes (but to be honest it needs mechanical changes [not being forced into 1s or more delay for a fast paced game mode + energy loss on downstate] or a complete change of some skill and not just number tweaks).

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4/6 Changes to Build Items and Support Heals

  • Added Sigil of Transference to the PvP Build panel. In PvP, this sigil grants a 20% increase in outgoing healing effectiveness.
  • Elemental Bastion (Tempest): Increased heal scaling from 0.4125 to 0.55 in PvP only.
  • Selfless Daring (Guardian): Increased heal scaling from 0.6 to 0.9 in PvP only.
  • Call of Valor (Warrior): Increased barrier attribute scaling from 0.5 to 0.82 in PvP only.

Does that say increased?! Added?!

Hands down, best part of this patch. Haven't seen those words in forever.

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@XxsdgxX.8109 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:While the attention to sPvP is greatly appreciated, the lack of attention to wvw balance is becoming a little worrisome.

If they are balancing PVP around the removal of amulets then WvW is truly
**
, because so many people run PvP
banned
prefixes such as Minstrels and Trailblazer over there.

Hope they don't ruin WvW next, best to keep the garbage of Spvp within Spvp, and keep WvW as the unfiltered experience as is, otherwise they remove the only niche those stats have for existing. No one runs those stats in PVE because it's all DPS go Brrrrrr in PVE.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Kolzar.9567 said:Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated),

Ya, it's a little less than 60% outgoing. You have Aquamancer's Training (15%) + Monk Runes (10%) + Healing Arrows Buff (20%) which is 45% outgoing healing, just round to 50%.

442 Base Healing + 352 Coefficient Healing (1175 Healing Power) is 800 Healing Via Water Arrow. With the modifiers of 50% thats 800+400 which is 1200 from Water Arrow.

Remove Healing Power now, and you have 442 Base Healing + 0 coefficient Healing. That's 450 Healing via Water Arrow. With 50% Modifer's that's 450+225 which is 675 Healing from Water Arrow. In order to get 1200 from before, you need 150% Healing Modifiers. 100% (transfusion) +50% (Ele's traits)

So ya, my math is correct. To replace Menders, you'd need 100% additional outgoing healing. We only got 20%...so all supports have now incurred about a 50% nerf to all healing. They assume that people will take Sage's and Avatar's...Sure...so it's more like a 25-30% nerf for all supports, that are now forced to take Sage's or Avatar...Course this doesn't take into account low base healing abilities, or skills with terribly low coefficients. So in essence, the higher the base healing the less the nerf impacts you...

How is this a sensible comparison? You seem to be expecting to get the same amount of healing without taking any healing on your amulet. If we go with your hyperbola, now with Berserkers (0 coefficient as you note) you would be healing more since you just got some free multipliers, so this would be a buff from your perspective. You can just take any of the 500 healing power amulets and then do the math again.

Furthermore net of the removal I can see this sigil enabling some comps both competitively and improve ranked diversity. Take a comp such as the one Prestige used in the Hardstuck tournament with no dedicated supports and suffered in teamfights. Now such comps could be more viable, just pick some sidenoder like a weaver and slap on the sigil. It still performs almost equally as a side noder but in team fights it will work as a halfway support so now you can have comps that either have dedicated sups and teamfighters, or maybe more roamers and sidenoders. Of course this argument would be invalid if the sup + teamfighter comps got removed altogether, but given the nerf is a lot more modest than what you are trying to imply, I don't see why current sups can't just pick say avatar or sages as opposed to menders and be ok.

Edit: Actually, my question was whether %61 was high, and seems like you rounded things up, clearly you should be able to see that the impact of this nerf actually gets smaller as the sum decreases, so at %45 or at 35% without monks the addition of 20% closes the gap even more, so it would be more on the margin of 5-7% percent, but at this point I don't find your 1200 number itself reliable.

Edit2: Another user verified below the change is on the margin of %7. Again as the total number of multipliers available decrease the nerf gets even less significant, and 20% from water arrows seems like it is on the higher end rather than the lower.

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I don't get why people were opposed to the removal of those amulets. They were busted and resulted in a stale meta. Outgoing healing is definitely the way to go as it's less selfish and more selfless of an option. It will encourage teamwork among players. We can also see Ventari support coming back? :flushed:

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@mindcircus.1506 said:While the attention to sPvP is greatly appreciated, the lack of attention to wvw balance is becoming a little worrisome.

Eh, every balance patch has made things worse than the previous one. The fact that WvW has not had any balance changes in a long time is a blessing. Granted, the february one still sucked, but its better than the shitshow PvP has become.

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@Kolzar.9567 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Low and behold, what did i say would happen?

IA8Kc67.pngj4lY06G.png

Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated), adding 0.2 with the new sigil and any amulet with 500 healing (which still exist) would yield an outgoing heal of 592
1.81~1075, a loss of 125 healing, or in relative terms a loss of less than 10%. Admittedly frost bow is just one example you picked, but it doesn't seem that large of a change, especially if the goal is to shave outgoing healing say around 10%-15% except a few targeted skills that had their coefficients changed (increased or decreased respectively) Overall it seems grossly misguided to require a 100% sigil, given the sum of healing multipliers is used at the tail end of the formula:Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power)
(mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)Of course this could be readily verified as a total if there was a complete list of healing coefficients somewhere, but I couldn't find a list of coefficients in wiki without having to click through each healing skill individually.

As a side note, while the removal of an amulet is by default reducing the set of feasible (not necessarily viable) alternatives a player can choose, the addition of the sigil makes the napkin math a little unclear as well, previously there were 18 amulets and 25 sigils, leading to 450 feasible (again not necessarily viable) combinations, now there are 416 feasible combinations of amulets and sigils, so even though the set of feasible choices got reduced the effect on the set of viable alternatives is not clear to me.

I was curious about the math on that too because that didn't sound right... so real quick I put together a build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAg2lRwCZOsFWJe2SrtfA-z5AXG9WAdnA+OA

With that build, I can get water arrow healing an ally for 1241 assuming I have 2 stacks of water arrows (thanks to coefficients from water arrow, monk rune, and 3rd minor in water). When I equip avatar instead of mendors and add an additional coefficient of 0.2, I get 1153 on an ally which is a loss of about 7.1%.

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@"Kolzar.9567" said:How is this a sensible comparison? You seem to be expecting to get the same amount of healing without taking any healing on your amulet.

The idea of the patch was that Transfusion was supposed to replace healing stats, since bunkers were using healing stats to remain bunker-y. Outgoing healing doesn't effect yourself, and so that was the whole point...to just get rid of bunky playstyle without killing support viability by granting us a sigil that would replace the healing stats we would lose. duh?

Edit: Actually, my question was whether %61 was high, and seems like you rounded things up clearly you should be able to see that the impact of this nerf actually gets smaller as the sum decreases, so at %45 or at 35% without monks the addition of 20% closes the gap even more, so it would be more on the margin of 5-7% percent, but at this point I don't find your 1200 number itself reliable

Bro u really want to start with me on math? You're dealing with one of the few people on this forum that applies mathematics and complex physics to the game to talk about balance changes.

I'll make this short and sweet and just show u a picture if you think I'm lying. Again, everything is the same as what I said in the previous comment. 45% Healing Modifiers, with a Menders amulet stat of 1200.

With Mendersjoxq2Fw.png

With ZerkerslL61fL3.png

Now do the math yourself. just add up how much of a healing loss it will be given an extra 20% Transfusion sigil, and compare it to menders right now. it's in the realm of a 40ish% nerf. If you are forced to run Avatar yes, the impact of the nerf would be less (half of 40% which is 20% nerf) so you said 7%...but a decrease from 1300 healing to 1100 healing is in order of a 20% nerf...

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I really enjoy how you guys are balancing pvp, but when is the next PvE balance patch? Current pve meta is boring, there is a healbrand and alacrigade monopoly, you only see those on endgame PvE, chronos alacricity is dead and firebrand got overbuffed, doing what druid and chrono does but better and in a single character, there is lots of underwelming weapons in the game, DH's longbow is sad, P/P deadeye will never see the light of meta, Herald... whats the point of the Charr based spec for rev beeing better at support than the Glint based one? Make elites less mono build, add bonus condition damage to traits that add base % damage increase so the trait and the spec ain't useless for condition based builds, increase the range of boons so i can play a truly ranged character or/and add stronger self might/quickness stuff for long ranged boys so we can sustain ourselves with those, a sigil that increases your damage and other that increases condition damage by 10% when 600 range away from the target, thats my feeback, give some love to long ranged characters, thank you for listening, love the game.

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@thancock.6307 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:Low and behold, what did i say would happen?

IA8Kc67.pngj4lY06G.png

Let me start by saying currently have no opinion on the change, but whilst trying to form one, I believe it is useful to have the correct math.I am not understanding the math in the second post you quoted. As you noted given a base heal of 442, a heal of 1200 with menders means the sum of your healing multipliers is at ~1.61 (I am not sure having modifiers of %60 outgoing healing falls into whether high or low, if someone has data on this it will be greatly appreciated), adding 0.2 with the new sigil and any amulet with 500 healing (which still exist) would yield an outgoing heal of 592
1.81~1075, a loss of 125 healing, or in relative terms a loss of less than 10%. Admittedly frost bow is just one example you picked, but it doesn't seem that large of a change, especially if the goal is to shave outgoing healing say around 10%-15% except a few targeted skills that had their coefficients changed (increased or decreased respectively) Overall it seems grossly misguided to require a 100% sigil, given the sum of healing multipliers is used at the tail end of the formula:Total healing done = [(mechanic-specific base healing) + (Healing Power)
(mechanic-specific coefficient)] * (sum of healing multipliers)Of course this could be readily verified as a total if there was a complete list of healing coefficients somewhere, but I couldn't find a list of coefficients in wiki without having to click through each healing skill individually.

As a side note, while the removal of an amulet is by default reducing the set of feasible (not necessarily viable) alternatives a player can choose, the addition of the sigil makes the napkin math a little unclear as well, previously there were 18 amulets and 25 sigils, leading to 450 feasible (again not necessarily viable) combinations, now there are 416 feasible combinations of amulets and sigils, so even though the set of feasible choices got reduced the effect on the set of viable alternatives is not clear to me.

I was curious about the math on that too because that didn't sound right... so real quick I put together a build:

With that build, I can get water arrow healing an ally for 1241 assuming I have 2 stacks of water arrows (thanks to coefficients from water arrow, monk rune, and 3rd minor in water). When I equip avatar instead of mendors and add an additional coefficient of 0.2, I get 1153 on an ally which is a loss of about 7.1%.

Well everyone who know how little the builds heal after last years feb patch already knew this we said so already in the last patch. On one side it is nice they patch so fast after months of nothing on the other side they seems to have take 0 input from the last patch pvp thread.

I also took Avatar but there is even more option . I guessed we will have losses in a 1 digit % but when you add the new sigil we got then:

  • more healing if 7.1% and use the Sigil of Transference then for others it increase by 13.9%
  • we do (more)dmg now.
  • we have the same HP pool as previously.
  • okay we lose a bit on self heal
  • we are now bruiser builds.
  • exception are the necros they lose barrier.

The main reasons why pvp is so sluggish are untouched

  • Some builds are over nerfed
  • We have people who can't do their rota
  • half a minute of cc and block skills tendency increasing.
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@mixxed.5862 said:

@"mistsim.2748" said:Bro, did you forget about Druid? You gutted his healing output, and 20% increased heals to allies is nothing man.

Anyway, glad to see the frequent changes.

Leaves room to buff it into something other than the lame sidenode decap role later.

Yeah we're 9 years in. No one wants to wait 2 years for the "possibility" that a completely ruined class might get attention to become semi-viable.

Druid had received nerfs to the actual skills/traits rather than it being handled with amulet removal. So when they remove Mender/Marshal to tend to 1 build on Scourge rather than nerfing the Scourge's actual traits/skill in question, Druid CA kit and the entire Druid specialization line will be completely useless outside of Ancient seeds. I mean
USELESS
capital and bolded.

Removing Mender/Marshal is not the way to go about this at all. 100% guarantee you it's going to force the stalest most narrow meta we've ever seen x10.

Have you been to wvw lately where there are still options for making different kinds of builds? Yeah it's amazingly fun. Going in there and messing around will remind you of how much more fun the game is when there are options to do different things.

So you really enjoyed playing the current druid build that much?

Not at all.

I come from a time of Druiding long before this recent variant.

I stopped using Druid when they nerfed pet stats by 20% and removed evade frame on Ancestral Grace. It was then that Core Ranger and Soulbeast became solid choices over anything the Druid could do in spvp. The Druid decap thing was only niche for a very short time. It was never a good build in higher tier play. Having 1 Druid pull an MAT win while using it made people think it was a strong meta, but I assure you this was just a niche choice for the player who played it.

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Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"mistsim.2748" said:Bro, did you forget about Druid? You gutted his healing output, and 20% increased heals to allies is nothing man.

Anyway, glad to see the frequent changes.

Leaves room to buff it into something other than the lame sidenode decap role later.

Yeah we're 9 years in. No one wants to wait 2 years for the "possibility" that a completely ruined class might get attention to become semi-viable.

Druid had received nerfs to the actual skills/traits rather than it being handled with amulet removal. So when they remove Mender/Marshal to tend to 1 build on Scourge rather than nerfing the Scourge's actual traits/skill in question, Druid CA kit and the entire Druid specialization line will be completely useless outside of Ancient seeds. I mean
USELESS
capital and bolded.

Removing Mender/Marshal is not the way to go about this at all. 100% guarantee you it's going to force the stalest most narrow meta we've ever seen x10.

Have you been to wvw lately where there are still options for making different kinds of builds? Yeah it's amazingly fun. Going in there and messing around will remind you of how much more fun the game is when there are options to do different things.

So you really enjoyed playing the current druid build that much?

Not at all.

I come from a time of Druiding long before this recent variant.

I stopped using Druid when they nerfed pet stats by 20% and removed evade frame on Ancestral Grace. It was then that Core Ranger and Soulbeast became solid choices over anything the Druid could do in spvp. The Druid decap thing was only niche for a very short time. It was never a good build in higher tier play. Having 1 Druid pull an MAT win while using it made people think it was a strong meta, but I assure you this was just a niche choice for the player who played it.

The removal of the i-frames on staff 3 was a kick in the nuts. Nothing felt good after that. But then they gutted the healing coefficients, and that was it. The spec is an empty shell of its former self.

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Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

Yes this is the problem but people know from experience that the coefficient and base heal are already nerfed to the ground. Some build had low amount of healing from the beginning like heal warrior because of this all meta support builds became condi clean tanks with cc.

Basically who has more cc and block wins in a game of musical chair

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Let's clear this up right now before anyone get's confused, because I see why there's a problem here.

Let's say you have a skill that has 0 base healing, and a 1.0 coefficient. With 1000 Healing Power from Menders this skills does 1000 heal. Swapping to Avatar is a 50% nerf, as your healing of this skill goes from 1000 healing to 500. Add a 20% modifier Healing modifier, and that 500 becomes 600, for a total of a 40% nerf.

Also in this case, you would need 100% modifiers to go from 500 to 1000 again.

In other words, the impact of the change will depend on how hardcore your build depends on the coefficient of the heal (and also it's base heal), which means your dependence on the build for healing power. Frost Bow has a high base and a low-ish coefficient, so it's less effected by the change then say, Soothing Power/Soothing Mist, which have a 1.0 and 2.0 coefficient...also i said this already two comments ago idk why i had to say this again.

I am sorry but this again doesn't make sense, first you wanted to heal as much as menders did with an amulet with 0 healing power, now you want to heal with an ability that has base 0 healing. Were you expecting to heal with decapitate, maybe blink? As another user pointed out the change in your original example is a loss of 7.1% exactly, I don't know what is there to further discuss.

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@Kolzar.9567 said:I am sorry but this again doesn't make sense

How does it not make sense? You can literately see how the impact of the nerf is dependent on what the healing coefficient is. I just said...the higher the coefficient, the more the change nerfs you, the lower the coefficient, the less it impacts you. The more base heal you have, the less the nerf impacts you.

In fact skills that have 1000 Base heal and 0 healing coefficient, are buffed by the change, a flat 20% increase to outgoing healing, is a flat 20% buff, because a skill with 0 healing coefficient and some finite base heal doesn't depend on healing power thus a change from Menders to Avatar's doesn't matter. Get with the program bud.

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