Jump to content
  • Sign Up

4/6 PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

Recommended Posts

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Kolzar.9567 said:I am sorry but this again doesn't make sense

How does it not make sense? You can literately see how the impact of the nerf is dependent on what the healing coefficient is. I just said...the higher the coefficient, the more the change nerfs you, the lower the coefficient, the less it impacts you. The more base heal you have, the less the nerf impacts you.

In fact skills that have 1000 Base heal and 0 healing coefficient, are buffed by the change, a flat 20% increase to outgoing healing, is a flat 20% buff, because a skill with 0 healing coefficient and some finite base heal doesn't depend on healing power thus a change from Menders to Avatar's doesn't matter. Get with the program bud.

It doesn't make sense because you originally claimed a sigil of 100% is necessary to have similar healing amounts. Afterwards you gave two unreasonable examples, first trying to match the healing with an amulet with literally 0 healing power, then talking about a hypothetical healing skill that has base 0 healing and 100 percent scaling. As I mentioned earlier I am not set on whether the change is good or bad, but claiming it is doom and gloom based on ridiculous examples and spreading misinformation is not helping anyone. Your own example of frost bow was shown to have a loss of only 7% and if their goal was to actually reduce outgoing healing by 10 ish percent to speed up the game they seem to have hit their mark reasonably well. Furthermore, as I mentioned in my other post, I suspect this change would enable comps such as the one ran by Prestige to have a more competitive teamfight by using their side noders as pseudo-healers. This does not make the sidenoders ultra tanky either since it is outgoing healing. This at least in my cursory glance is an improvement to the current meta. As I mentioned if there was a list of coefficients on the wiki that is easily accessible it would be easy to quantify exactly the impact as a whole, but I couldn't find such a list. Finally, I am not sure why you are so defensive, you used a hyperbola, it was not correct, that is it. I was just trying to form my opinion on the actual math, took your example seriously at 1200 and try to backtrack the math, which lead me to my original 10% (which turned out to be an overstatement) since you rounded the numbers to your convenience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Kolzar.9567" said:How is this a sensible comparison? You seem to be expecting to get the same amount of healing without taking any healing on your amulet.

The idea of the patch was that Transfusion was supposed to replace healing stats, since bunkers were using healing stats to remain bunker-y. Outgoing healing doesn't effect yourself, and so that was the whole point...to just get rid of bunky playstyle without killing support viability by granting us a sigil that would replace the healing stats we would lose. duh?

Edit: Actually, my question was whether %61 was high, and seems like you rounded things up clearly you should be able to see that the impact of this nerf actually gets smaller as the sum decreases, so at %45 or at 35% without monks the addition of 20% closes the gap even more, so it would be more on the margin of 5-7% percent, but at this point I don't find your 1200 number itself reliable

Bro u really want to start with me on math? You're dealing with one of the few people on this forum that applies mathematics and complex physics to the game to talk about balance changes.

I'll make this short and sweet and just show u a picture if you think I'm lying. Again, everything is the same as what I said in the previous comment. 45% Healing Modifiers, with a Menders amulet stat of 1200.

With Menders
joxq2Fw.png

With Zerkers
lL61fL3.png

Now do the math yourself. just add up how much of a healing loss it will be given an extra 20% Transfusion sigil, and compare it to menders right now. it's in the realm of a 40ish% nerf. If you are forced to run Avatar yes, the impact of the nerf would be less (half of 40% which is 20% nerf) so you said 7%...but a decrease from 1300 healing to 1100 healing is in order of a 20% nerf...

The impact of the nerf wouldn't be half of 40% because healing modifiers are applied after healing power is taken into account (you take no healing power in zerker so the modifiers don't have as big an effect). That's where you are messing up your math. The base healing of arrow with mendors and monk runes is 849. Add the 45% modifiers and it becomes 1231. The base healing with avatar and monk runes is 699. Add the 65% modifier and it becomes 1153 which is a 7% difference. The patch drops tomorrow so there isn't much point in debating it. Feel free to test it tomorrow with the same build running avatar with transfusion. The outgoing healing will be a 7% decrease on that particular build you are referencing. The personal healing will be what is drastically affected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@thancock.6307 said:The impact of the nerf wouldn't be half of 40% because healing modifiers are applied after healing power is taken into account (you take no healing power in zerker so the modifiers don't have as big an effect).

dude I know when u apply healing modifiers. just look no further then the comment. The impact of the nerf is dependent on the healing coefficient the end...it means the nerf will impact each skill differently depending on its coefficient.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kolzar.9567 said:It doesn't make sense because you originally claimed a sigil of 100% is necessary to have similar healing amounts.

Your just misrepresenting what I said in those posts. i said Anet won't give us 100% healing mod because Sage and Avatar exist. If they removed those, then they'd have to give us a 100% modifier to replace healing power. This is why i said they will probably give us 15-25 and call it a day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny how people are calling for buffs for one of the most overperforming sidenoders in the game right now in form of Druid. Truly a gamer moment.

Great changes and great communication. If we get a skills patch before EoD releases the PvP community will declare you as our messiah lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swing.6439 said:Hi, where's druid if y'all are making changes to support builds? Or did you forget that you completely disgraced the class along with the other HoT specs because you desperately want people to buy PoF?

I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. See Revenant for example if you can picture the Ventari legend having personal sustain with an elite legend that is also a purely healing spec like say something like a Ritualist that is most likely part of the reason for these changes as per how high the outgoing healing potential is with them. However no one really uses these in competitive because of the fact that having like one ranger as an opponent can make Ventari absolutely useless. With the various outgoing healing effectiveness of current rev traits combined with how the current stats work adding in something new that heals would be absolutely game breaking. So in reality its not a scheme to sell PoF its just a selling point for a new expansion which is probably going to be close to what I am thinking they plan on doing although for Revs already having one pve spec thats not really that useful outside of pve I probably won't buy end of dragons if it ends up just being something else I can't play where I want to play it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At first thanks for communication and preview vision.

But as for me it wrong way.

reduces the self-sustain of supportwhat a point reduce self-sustain of support in mmo game? It should be unavailable unit machibe who can survive vs 2 and more dps in same skill level.. It is already nerfed, before nerf.

we hope to see an increase in kill potential in fightswhat we point increase " kill potential" ? I am ok if good suport stand all fight on one point. Sad, but looks what one-shot game mode next?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In addition to my previous message I believe more and more that it will be roughly the same for builds using mender (big heals get buffed and small heals nerfed if my super quick attempt at calculating the impact on some skills is right). But this idea got me a thinking about sage. It could become an indirect buff to condi healers (firebrand / condi tempest) compared to power because they also get roughly the same healing for more pressure. As always, wait and see.EDIT : noticed it was mentioned in the note :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi everyone,

Tomorrow’s release will include a few PvP balance changes, some of which we discussed in our post two weeks ago. We’re back again to provide some context behind these upcoming changes. We’re still evaluating the impact of the previous PvP balance update, but at the end of this post we’ll talk about a few areas we’re keeping an eye on for future updates.

4/6 Changes to Build Items and Support Heals

  • Removed Mender Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
  • Removed Marshal Amulet from the PvP Build panel.
  • Added Sigil of Transference to the PvP Build panel. In PvP, this sigil grants a 20% increase in outgoing healing effectiveness.
  • Elemental Bastion (Tempest): Increased heal scaling from 0.4125 to 0.55 in PvP only.
  • Selfless Daring (Guardian): Increased heal scaling from 0.6 to 0.9 in PvP only.
  • Call of Valor (Warrior): Increased barrier attribute scaling from 0.5 to 0.82 in PvP only.

As previously discussed, we removed Mender and Marshal amulets from PvP and added Sigil of Transference to compensate for the reduction of allied healing to support builds. While Marshal is currently overshadowed by Mender and not as much of a problem, we wanted Transference to be powerful, and we were concerned with how high it could push outgoing healing in combination with a 1000 healing power amulet for builds that are less reliant on the extra health that Mender provides.

Removing Mender amulet serves 2 purposes: it forces high-sustain side node builds into more aggressive amulets, and reduces the self-sustain of support builds. Mender amulet side noders are much more prone to stalemating fights and generally slowing down the pace of the game. Similarly, by reducing the self-sustain of support builds, we hope to see an increase in kill potential in fights and a general increase to overall pace. We still want support builds to be able to support their allies well, and targeting their self-sustain lets us keep a lot of their other skills at the same power level.

Our goal with Sigil of Transference is to keep support healing to allies around the same level that it currently is with Mender. Elemental Bastion, Selfless Daring, and Call of Valor stood out as three sources primarily used by support builds that are most heavily impacted by the removal of Mender, and so we’ve preemptively bumped up the healing coefficients to bring their allied healing with Avatar amulet and Sigil of Transference closer to where it is currently. Looking over other allied heals, some sources will heal for a bit more than they currently do with Mender and some will heal for a bit less, but overall output should be similar. We’ll keep a close eye on healing values as the meta develops without Mender and will make further adjustments as necessary.

4/6 Changes to Scourge

  • Sand Cascade: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 1.0488 to 0.77 in PvP only.
  • Sand Flare: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.75 to 0.45 in PvP only.
  • Desert Empowerment: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.77 to 0.62 in PvP only.
  • Harbinger Shroud: Reduced barrier attribute scaling on detonation from 2.0 to 1.65 in PvP only.
  • Transfusion: Reduced pulse heal scaling from 0.1 to 0.08 in PvP only, when the Scourge specialization is equipped.

Scourge has continued to show strong results in both ranked play and automated tournaments, providing strong defense to itself and allies through barrier generation and healing while also creating a good amount of pressure through boon removal and damage. While Scourge sustain is affected by the removal of Mender amulet, given the current power level of the build we were concerned that the move to Avatar amulet alone wouldn’t be enough to bring it in line, so we’ve made additional shaves to the healing power coefficients of some of Scourge’s barrier generation and Transfusion.

Feed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first.

Looking AheadWe’ll be evaluating the impact of tomorrow’s changes in addition to the recent March update on the side node meta and support builds. We still want dedicated support builds to be a viable option, and we’ll be paying close attention to how the meta develops following the removal of Mender and the addition of Transference.

Sigil of Transference has the potential to enable stronger healing from non-support builds that can afford to run Avatar or Sage amulet and may end up being too powerful for an individual sigil. We’re not opposed to enabling this type of build, but if they end up pushing dedicated supports completely out of the meta then we may reduce the outgoing healing granted by Transference and roll more outgoing healing into support traits or support runes to create a greater tradeoff for non-supports.

We’ve also considered the possibility that moving support builds from Mender to Avatar amulet could end up making them too squishy due to the reduction in self-healing. This is something that we’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but we’re prepared to make further adjustments as necessary to find the right balance between squishiness and support power. This could involve buffs to more selfish survivability skills, or possibly further increasing outgoing support potential to justify the level of vulnerability.

That’s all we have for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in the mists!

-The Systems Team

Hello, I am really glad to see that you are doing some frequent adjustments to the pvp. I am still too unexperienced to give a constructive feed back on the changes, but i am happy to see that you are doing some frequent changes , please continue to do so.

Have a great day and thank you for your work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

for everyone thats interested in numbers (calculating with 150 healing power from last rites):

Sand Cascade: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 1.0488 to 0.77 in PvP only.

results in 2428 base barrier + (previous: 1206 - calculated with 1150 healing power) and after this patch 500 (calculated with 650 haling power) which results in a 2928/3634=0,8-> 20% reduced


Sand Flare: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.75 to 0.45 in PvP only.

results in 4839 base barrier + (previous 3230 self heal + 862self heal, + 862 barrier) and after this patch: 487 extra self heal and 292 extra barrier) for barrier thats 5131/5701=0,9 -> 10% reduced, and for self healing another 3717/4092=0,91 ->9% reduced for barrier


Desert Empowerment: Reduced barrier attribute scaling from 0.77 to 0.62 in PvP only.

results in 966 base barrier + (previous 885) after this patch 403 - resulting in 1369/1851= 0,74 ->26% reduced


Harbinger Shroud: Reduced barrier attribute scaling on detonation from 2.0 to 1.65 in PvP only.

base barrier: 5016 + (previous 719self barrier and 1684+2300 allied barrier) after this patch: 406 extra self barrier and 1684+ 1072 allied barrier thats self barrier reduce by 5422/5735=0,94 -> 6% and allied barrier 2756/3984=0,69 -> 31%


Transfusion: Reduced pulse heal scaling from 0.1 to 0.08 in PvP only, when the Scourge specialization is equipped.

base 219 healing per pulse + (previous 115 extra healing) after this patch 52 extra healing results in overall 2439/3006=0,81 -> 19% reduced healingbut its the only skill/ trait that would be affected by % outgoing healing.

so if i add a 20% outgoing heal modifier (which is absolutely not worth taking for just one skill) that would be (219+52)1,29=2927 which results in a reduction of 2927/3006=0,97 -> 3%

God so many numbers, hope i didnt miss anything.

So most notable are two things: 26% reduced barrier from Desert Empowerment (which can be seen as spammy ability) and Harbinger Shroud barrier for allies reduced by 31%In my opinion this touched too much (harbinger shroud). it has 3.5 seconds activation time and will then "only" give around 2.8k barrier if you look at the support aspect. sorry but noone can plan almost 4 seconds ahead in a pvp-gamemode.maybe this is just a failure of a trait overall and needs a rework (again). i think it was only changed because the previous trait in that spot was too strong in wvw and pvp.

also reducing the outgoing barrier doesnt feel right. that patch sounds more like "scourge is not supposed to be a supporter, its meant to be a selfish class, but we are looking into removing this selfish aspect as well, by probably changing feed from corruption:

"Feed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first"

my guess is, that you might be looking into boon durations from this trait. but keep in mind, that necro is the class with the lowest range of reliable boon application, to itself and especially to allies.

In my opinion its good that a trait like this exists. Most classes just spam out their boons in combat without really thinking about it (yes even after boon application nerfs. so imo there should be something that punishes them for doing that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like seeing necro nerfed.I would be happy to see further PvP changes in the future, for example Tournaments based on rank with small reward. Would love to see some challenge for players like me, who are gold II - gold III and cant really compete better playres in platinum in automated tournaments. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the communication. As well, thanks for being a bit more frequent with smaller passes, this is a HUGE step in the right direction.However, the removal of Menders is a very bad idea. The only issue with Menders is the fact that it has a high level of power on top of high health and high healing. Supports are not supposed to be damage dealers, they're supposed to be supports. Also, instead of removing menders, tone down the specific skills that are overperforming due to high coeffs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sorrow.7298 said:Just give ranger spirits the gyro treatment, they literally melt in PvP . They would be super meaningful for support/heal druid and the speed they melt to damage is kinda sad. WE BELIEVE IN YOU CMC !!!

No need to believe. They said in the last post they don't want AI heavy builds to be competetiv viable. Ranger is officially dead in PvP in high ranks as it doesn't have any non-AI-Heavy builds by design.

@Swing.6439 said:Hi, where's druid if y'all are making changes to support builds? Or did you forget that you completely disgraced the class along with the other HoT specs because you desperately want people to buy PoF?This isn't about HoT and PoF. It is about AI-heavy builds that aren't supported by ANet in PvP anymore. See their last balance post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...