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Please reevaluate barrier


mrauls.6519

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on,
I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/970060074

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Very good video, @"Trevor Boyer.6524" .

For non-scourge necromancers, Blood Bank is the opportunity to compensate for one of shroud's biggest weaknesses: no healing in shroud. Blood Bank provides a method of allowing a "heal", provided you're at full health going into shroud, which would also allow longer time in shroud, enhancing a necromancer's usefulness. Reapers and core necros going into shroud at 100% is a somewhat rare occurrence from my experience. And I honestly don't know if any non-Scourge builds use blood bank.

Scourge doesn't have this shroud weakness, so they can always benefit from incoming healing. Considering that Scourges can already heal and provide barrier reliably, it is not difficult to be at 100% health and then proc blood bank. And once you start procing it, it's hard to overcome the barrier.

Maybe the solution should be that blood bank only procs while in shroud. Any healing received while in shroud applies barrier. (regardless of health level) Desert shroud is 6 seconds long, so Scourges would have limited time to use this and even if they did, the barrier disappears in 5s. Chances are the barrier would go to waste since Desert Shroud already provides a large amount of barrier. Or if you don't want to remove the Blood Bank utility out of shroud completely, have it only proc at a lower percent when out of shroud and still allow full proc when in shroud.

I think this would serve to not only reduce Blood Bank utility for Scourges, but make it more appealing for other necros that can't get any decent use out of Blood Bank.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on,
I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

Awesome video. I wish you had time in it to swap amulets and see how it goes without the +1000 healing power, which if it were still broken would indicate to the Devs that the amulet isn't the problem.

My take away from the video:

  1. Just life steal and Runes of Sanct. isn't broken.
  2. Just life steal and Blood Bank isn't broken.
  3. The fact that it is ANY incoming healing source may very well be the biggest problem in a match, and this could be fixed like how Abrasive Gift was fixed.
  4. Together BB+Sanctuary is a extra 120% 'healing' from all non-regeneration based healing which sticks out to me as the breaking point on top of scourge's other sources of barrier.

This makes Blood Magic's life stealing into something like 276 barrier per AA if you are hitting 2 targets on each hit, and it is a fast hitting AA chain, so I can see how it adds up fast. Dagger 2 is giving you something like 4.5k on the setup (9 pulses, 415 healing per pulse, at full hp with sant and BB is ~4500 barrier).

It seems to me that what needs to happen is that Blood Bank needs a mode split for 50% in PvP at least. That may be too big of a nerf, but Dagger 2 would give you something closer to 2.6k barrier and the AA life steal procs would give 161 barrier for each pair of targets. Its a question then of what output rate is fine? I'm personally convinced now that the issue isn't the rune, or the amulet, or even the rune proccing off of life steal. It very much seems to be the 100% conversion rate from Blood Bank.

EDIT: I think dropping Healing Power altogether would only reduce the barrier gain on dagger 2 to 3.4k, or 75% less barrier and the Barrier gain per 2 foes on AA hits to 182, a 66% reduction in barrier. Its a good data point to consider in what amount to adjust Blood Bank too. Getting rid of each 1000 healing power amulet will not solve the problem.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on,
I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

Awesome video. I wish you had time in it to swap amulets and see how it goes without the +1000 healing power, which if it were still broken would indicate to the Devs that the amulet isn't the problem.

My take away from the video:
  1. Just life steal and Runes of Sanct. isn't broken.
  2. Just life steal and Blood Bank isn't broken.
  3. The fact that it is ANY incoming healing source may very well be the biggest problem in a match, and this could be fixed like how Abrasive Gift was fixed.
  4. Together BB+Sanctuary is a extra 120% 'healing' from all non-regeneration based healing which sticks out to me as the breaking point on top of scourge's other sources of barrier.

This makes Blood Magic's life stealing into something like 276 barrier per AA if you are hitting 2 targets on each hit, and it is a fast hitting AA chain, so I can see how it adds up fast. Dagger 2 is giving you something like 4.5k on the setup (9 pulses, 415 healing per pulse, at full hp with sant and BB is ~4500 barrier).

It seems to me that what needs to happen is that Blood Bank needs a mode split for 50% in PvP at least. That may be too big of a nerf, but Dagger 2 would give you something closer to 2.6k barrier and the AA life steal procs would give 161 barrier for each pair of targets. Its a question then of what output rate is fine? I'm personally convinced now that the issue isn't the rune, or the amulet, or even the rune proccing off of life steal. It very much seems to be the 100% conversion rate from Blood Bank.

EDIT: I think dropping Healing Power altogether would only reduce the barrier gain on dagger 2 to 3.4k, or 75% less barrier and the Barrier gain per 2 foes on AA hits to 182, a 66% reduction in barrier. Its a good data point to consider in what amount to adjust Blood Bank too. Getting rid of each 1000 healing power amulet will not solve the problem.

It's definitely not the fault of the amulets. Its' the traits & rune that are just amplifying things to a ridiculous extent.

I just went in game and ran some tests while running full dps amulets like Sinister as example. You still benefit significant barrier/life steal padding just latently because of how Blood Bank/Sanctuary synergizes. Any other class/build would have their support gimmick bottomed out if they didn't run heal stat. This shows that it's the traits & the rune that are powerful, not the amulets.

It would be unfair to remove mender/marshal from other classes for this reason, and in general it dumbs down our in-game options which isn't good.

And what happens when Mender/Marshal is gone? Well then Scourges will use Sage and we'll have the same problem with a different mathematical skew. Now the Scourges deal damage and still have a lot of support. The counter offensive pressure from the damage will make up for the loss in barrier. If they don't use Sage, they'll use Avatar and it'll still be good support that is complained about and a bit more damage than they have now. <- You see the problem is not amulets, it is the strength of the class Scourge, regardless of what amulet it is wearing.

Arenanet must stop this "just remove it" game philosophy. It is only ruining the game mode and avoiding the actual balance issues.

They need to address Rune Of Sanctuary and Blood Bank. They do not need to remove more amulets. Removing amulets is killing the dynamic of the game mode. It's actually destroying the 4 job role dynamic that has always been good, an reducing it to this shallow meta of "things that are somehow all team fights and supports at the same time" and then "thief for decaps and +"

If they keep down this route, long gone will be the days of: Team Fighter / Support / Roamer +er / Side Node Duelist or Bunker.

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@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@SteepledHat.1345 said:Just make barrier a boon and let it be strip/steal-able

Wouldn’t help classes with no way to strip boons tho.

But, it would help the classes that have boon strips, which somehow are already counters to a degree to classes that have access to barrier.
Looks at teef icon
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

If that’s the case then they don’t need any more help lol

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as shit.

As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really fucking good due to synergy it has with other traits.barrier = effective hpgives regen = hpgives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traitssignet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.barrier = effective hpgives regen = hpgives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traitssignet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.barrier = effective hpgives regen = hpgives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traitssignet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

which is the fucking point ?core ele becomes stronger, weaver stays as strong as it is right now

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.barrier = effective hpgives regen = hpgives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traitssignet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

which is the kitten point ?core ele becomes stronger, weaver stays as strong as it is right now

Unexpected reply, I am used to people wishing to gut everything but the profession they play, so much that it's uncommon for somebody here asking for buffs to another class

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...Too lazy to think about solutions~

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

Yeah it's called selective memory ...they recently nerfed both stone resonance(trait and utility) and the trait giving out barrier on dodges...nerfed it twice

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@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...I don't know who you are trying to convince....

im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...Too lazy to think about solutions~

1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy....

Too lazy to type other professions

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

Yeah it's called short memory ...they recently nerfed both stone resonance(trait and utility) and the trait giving out barrier on dodges...nerfed it twice

My memory generally doesn’t include ele stuff as I don’t play the class, I stick to ranger and guardian. Guess I’ll see how weaver goes when I get back home and able to pvp without being on mobile hotspot.

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy

Scrapper's hammer specifically gets buffed with explosion tag on hammer 2 for explosives synergy"Let's forbid scrapper to take explosives!"

404 logic not found.

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