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Claim buff is killing WvW


Riba.3271

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It has been about year since last post so about to bring it up again as claim buff is definitely the biggest "killer" of WvW.

Passive stat buffs are stupid and have no place in competitive gamemode.

ProofFighting at friendly camp vs enemy camp is 200 power, 200 precision, 200 toughness, 200 vitality dif.Damage: 200 power is about 8% damage for power builds but more for minstrel players so it adds up to at least 10%, precision is little less, so lets say 17% total more damageSurvivability: Well 200 vitality is simply 10% more max health for almost all builds, so 10% more survivability, toughness is about the same, so total of 21% more survivability.Just this stat difference on open field makes it so that there can't exist best guild, roamer or open commander. This removes the reason to play the gamemode for tons of people.

Now imagine you're roaming or blobbing, you beat enemy and then go their camp or tower and try have a nice fight again but there is 17% damage and 21% survivability swing, that is like 2 runesets. Obviously your chance to win the combat drops drastically, no strategy or anything involved. If enemy is competent and don't throw around their skills randomly, the map just ends in a stalemate where each side wins at their corner.

Same difference of 17% damage and 21% survivability is also between having no claim buff and being at enemy keep with presence of the keep, which makes keeps impossible to fight in. This is counter intuitive because the agressor brings something to do for both sides. It also allows people to run useless builds and be outside squad when defending while feeling strong which is big issue for everyone that wants to learn or teach useful builds.

Claim buff wasn't always a thing and it already ruined any competitive scene, whetever it was small scale, guilds, ppting or blobbing. It also makes bandvagoning a necessity if people want to have regular decent, not great because fights will still be semiboring due to stat difference, time in open tags offprime as you can't always rely on enemy to have a group willing to fight you. Time to revive WvW again and remove this disgusting thing.

So what should be done is rework claim buff to something like following, other similar ideas are welcome too:

  • Siege requires 10% less supply to build
  • 25% Out of combat movement speed (removed in combat)
  • Dolyaks have 50% more health (and nerf escort buff 90%->50% to revive dolyak fights again)
  • Siege does 15% more damage to siege
  • Siege despawn timers are 20% longer
  • 20% magic find (unchanged)
  • +5 supply (unchanged)

Doubled with presence of the keep

To make up for lost defending power buff wall/gate health everywhere by 25% and rework shield gen bubbles to not block siege fire and instead pulse damage reduction or something similar. This should buy defenders more time and would make more epic long-term sieges and objective battles.

removeclaimbuff

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Claim buff at garrison is killing the fun of WvW combat!

Meanwhile at north camp there is a 10 man perma-boon perma-absorb/reflect group consisting of 8 minstrel support builds and a couple dps running around ganking 20+ one by one because no one can touch them.

But I digress.

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I don't play WvW, but just looking at the suggestion I feel like the balance would completely turn over to the other side. Removing the buffs for defenders, but adding many for the attackers.

Logically, I would say that defending your Camp should give you some buffs. Defending is always easier than attacking.But as a compromise, you could say that the buffs depend on some structure being intact.If the attackers can destroy those structures, that would even out the odds. Siege engines are tools that can destroy them easier.Not sure if that sounds more fair, but I hope it contributes to the discussion in some way.

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@Lucio.4190 said:I don't play WvW, but just looking at the suggestion I feel like the balance would completely turn over to the other side. Removing the buffs for defenders, but adding many for the attackers.

Logically, I would say that defending your Camp should give you some buffs. Defending is always easier than attacking.But as a compromise, you could say that the buffs depend on some structure being intact.If the attackers can destroy those structures, that would even out the odds. Siege engines are tools that can destroy them easier.Not sure if that sounds more fair, but I hope it contributes to the discussion in some way.

Yea originally I wanted them to nerf the claim buff down to like maximum +30 each stat but as time went by, I started wanting it gone completely and replaced with something else. I didn't suggest any changes to make attackers strongers other than reducing dolyak escort buff.

You can already rely on skill, communication and strategy when defending camps. Especially on home borderland or your eb corner where if you shout on mapchat that you need help defending a camp, minimum of 2 people show up to help. For example you can build golems that you can man to contest or start the fight with ballista burst. Passive stats aren't necessary for good PvP, you would actually get better fights if the stats didn't exist because you can after defending go to enemy camp and fight them again instead of losing due to stat swing. So without claim buff you'd get more and better fights, even if you lost camps against more skilled/organised opponents.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Claim buff at garrison is killing the fun of WvW combat!

Meanwhile at north camp there is a 10 man perma-boon perma-absorb/reflect group consisting of 8 minstrel support builds and a couple dps running around ganking 20+ one by one because no one can touch them.

But I digress.

Don't forget about group of 5 teefs camping in stealth for ganking for over 5min near portals, but the biggest problem are stats from claim buff~

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Claim buff at garrison is killing the fun of WvW combat!

Meanwhile at north camp there is a 10 man perma-boon perma-absorb/reflect group consisting of 8 minstrel support builds and a couple dps running around ganking 20+ one by one because no one can touch them.

But I digress.

They are skilled players who seek out numbered fights.

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@Threather.9354 said:Survivability: Well 200 vitality is simply 10% more max health for almost all builds, so 10% more survivability, toughness is about the same, so total of 21% more survivability.That doesn't make sense.

200 of 2000 (only health) is 10%.200 of 2000 (only armor) is 10%.400 of 4000 (health + armor) is still 10%.

Now imagine you're roaming or blobbing, you beat enemy and then go their camp or tower and try have a nice fight again but there is 17% damage and 21% survivability swing, that is like 2 runesets. Obviously your chance to win the combat drops drastically, no strategy or anything involved. If enemy is competent and don't throw around their skills randomly, the map just ends in a stalemate where each side wins at their corner.Doesn't matter. What matters much more is outnumbering / imbalanced matchups. This is what kills WvW.If that stat difference was the biggest issue in WvW, the game mode would be in a great spot.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Yeah if someone wanted presence of the keep nerfed or changed I could understand. Doesn't really make sense to remove the defender advantage of guild claim buff. That's kind of the whole point of it and currently does it for all walks of life from roamer to omega zerg. One night I was roaming on an enemy map and for over 10 minutes straight there was a train of defenders running from garrison to bay. You know the attackers had some real carnage going on in there. Closed tag naturally. Down to the solo/roaming end of the spectrum we literally don't care if someone is inside their claim buff. If we want the other player/s dead we will find a way, we always do. We know that happens too because of the salt whispers. I could roam without food and a runeset and still win a giant portion of my fights on a meme build not because I am amazing, but because I am experienced.

If you are losing to claim buffs you might want to reexamine your strategy. I can assure you most fights are determined by player experience, gear, builds and the scenario long before external stats like claim buff and ruins are taken into consideration. That's kind of the point people have tried to explain to you in the past year. There are a lot of other things that need to be worked on first before making a trivial change to guild claim is going to sway anything, if ever. Can't stop a hurricane by killing a butterfly.

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It's not the only thing killing WvW but it does need to go. People in general are starting to not bother much with anything else to get in some large fights before too many people log off and positioning and tempo is heavily dictated by territory lines.

If some group got their shit together and owns your camp, that's on your people. If there are thieves camping a spot, get some people and kill them or leave them there so they won't be other places.

  • Keep non wall levels with no claim buff. Only have claim buff work while on walls and stairs.
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@Justine.6351 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Yeah if someone wanted presence of the keep nerfed or changed I could understand. Doesn't really make sense to remove the defender advantage of guild claim buff. That's kind of the whole point of it and currently does it for all walks of life from roamer to omega zerg. One night I was roaming on an enemy map and for over 10 minutes straight there was a train of defenders running from garrison to bay. You know the attackers had some real carnage going on in there. Closed tag naturally. Down to the solo/roaming end of the spectrum we literally don't care if someone is inside their claim buff. If we want the other player/s dead we will find a way, we always do. We know that happens too because of the salt whispers. I could roam without food and a runeset and still win a giant portion of my fights on a meme build not because I am amazing, but because I am experienced.

If you are losing to claim buffs you might want to reexamine your strategy. I can assure you most fights are determined by player experience, gear, builds and the scenario long before external stats like claim buff and ruins are taken into consideration. That's kind of the point people have tried to explain to you in the past year. There are a lot of other things that need to be worked on first before making a trivial change to guild claim is going to sway anything, if ever. Can't stop a hurricane by killing a butterfly.

Oh I agree, it's kinda dumb to blame losses for that. It's just I wanted to make sure that if there were falsehoods in the OP (and the last dozen or so topics spammed on the matter). Not that I am surprised that it is presented in a disingenuous fashion.

So basically we are talking about a <5% advantage on the matter which could be solved by buying infusions or something. Also it's not really all stats either.

My main annoyance with the keep buff is that it inflates my numbers when I'm adjusting my build so that just leads to me overestimating my stats. But that's not a huge deal.

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Most WvW fights aren't perfect frictionless spheres knocking into each other. (Neither are most SPvP fights, either.)

Sometimes the extra stats are like someone getting a free hit on me, or vice versa. But there are build disparities and outnumbering situations that are also like that. There's also a huge amount of variance in circumstances like "Did your enemy pre-charge their stacking sigils?" "How much life force does this necro have banked up?" "Does this group's mesmer have moa off cooldown?" We learn to live with it and it's fine.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:You might as well ask for them to remove ascended gear from wvw too then...

yeah that is pretty much it.if one side had superior bloodlust + guild claim + presence of the keep + food + sigil stacks + ascended + infusions and the other side didn't obviously that would be ridiculous but normally bloodlust is minor, food/ascended/infuions/stacking sigils are available to all and the regular claim buffs across a map are generally +, - or = depending on each server's activity on said map.

Presence of the keep does kind of stand out to be fair. It takes the defender advantage and doubles it up which makes it a bit more prominent. If I had to choose a change to presence of the keep I would consider having it add +2 more tiers to the current guild's claim level and if already VIII then set it to X which would add concentration and expertise maybe? Just a random idea to trim/water down presence of the keep while still making it relevant.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

Survivability:
Well 200 vitality is simply 10% more max health for almost all builds, so 10% more survivability, toughness is about the same, so total of 21% more survivability.That doesn't make sense.

200 of 2000 (only health) is 10%.200 of 2000 (only armor) is 10%.400 of 4000 (health + armor) is still 10%.

Now imagine you're roaming or blobbing, you beat enemy and then go their camp or tower and try have a nice fight again but there is 17% damage and 21% survivability swing, that is like 2 runesets. Obviously your chance to win the combat drops drastically, no strategy or anything involved. If enemy is competent and don't throw around their skills randomly, the map just ends in a stalemate where each side wins at their corner.Doesn't matter. What matters much more is outnumbering / imbalanced matchups. This is what kills WvW.If that stat difference was the biggest issue in WvW, the game mode would be in a great spot.

If you double your armor and your health, you only gained 100% and 100% but its actually 300% increase in survivability.So with 200 vit and toughness is 1.1 1.1 100% -100% = 21% increase in survivability

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:Wait, I thought you could only get +200 all stats at a keep via Presence of the Keep and Guild claim? It's just +100 at a camp?

Issue is that over 90% of fights you have against between 2 servers is at claim buff of one side, so it is either one side has it, or the other has it. So the difference is actually doubled.

Reducing claim buff radius could be good idea too.

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@LetoII.3782 said:Almost no fights are won/lost over 10%It's an easy scapegoat though.

Its 17% damage and 21% survivability difference between normal fights (either near your objective or enemy objective). Its not 10%, its more like 40% more damage difference depending on location. Imagine that.

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@"Wiin Prenite.9652" said:MonkaHmm, You do realize half of wvw na is pug/bag farming groups that will sit in a t3 garri’s for an hour plus right?

Yes and that is exactly result of claim buff. Imagine if claim buff didn't exist, then the attackers wouldn't need to be completely organised to survive in enemy keeps. Thus bandvagoning would be less of a necessity to "go for content".

Overall claimbuff forces massive skill and build disparity between 2 servers as they need to overcome 800 stats, siege, movement speed and whatever. Thus guilds stack... so they can play the game instead of relying on enemy commander existing/not tagging down.

You don't understand how fun works, if the "farmers" take keeps easier, they will be less stacked because they will be bored. And tbf most of us just want good fights.

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