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Yeah guys really sucks thief isnt a easy kill free bag in wvw emiright, also sucks their great roamers consideringits the one thing they excel at in wvw cuz the definitely arnt a zerg class. The only feasible suggestion in this thread is thief should be revealed on any attack attempt failed or not. I could also see thief stealth having a 10 sec restackable stealth cap. A lot of the suggested changes would delete the entire class which im sure many would love, at least until the realized how many players left the game due to such changes and the population is already struggling in this mmo. To add thief would need a significant buff in burst damage, sustained damage/survivability if stealth was nerfed to the degree most want, which is why in every MMO forum there's players complaining about the rogue class and its stealth.Be thankful in gw2 to achieve any long duration stealth it requires constant active upkeep resulting in the use of most of the thiefs global resources ie ini. If a thief attacks u after long duration of stealth chances are it has 0 ini or very low (3 or so) ini regenerated by the time its attack occurs.We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth skills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd combined with a burst that takes 75% or more of even high sustain builds hp in one burst instead of the chip damage it does currently lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth kills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

You could also have a short time limit of stealth application from combos when in combat, or so that you can only combo once, other stealth utility works as normal duration. Out of combat comboing stealth stacking etc would work as it is now (or even longer duration), so you can still setup your engage with enough duration to cover some ground. You could also give the in combat stealth utility longer duration if you are only going to have 2. You can stealth for combat still, but it makes you dedicate to the fight, or leave, it would stop the constant resetting. For me, stealth I can deal with, if the player was forced to remain in the fight or if they decided to bail they have to actually bail like other classes have to.

Though I am not sure it's needed. I think my first suggestion would fix a good deal of what is annoying about fighting high stealth up time builds, I think most people don't understand how often people spam attacks from stealth that hit a block or miss etc etc. Most people I find on thief and ranger etc are just bad players and this would punish spam play and reward paying attention, I also think if the other player counters something they can't see coming, they should be rewarded by having the stealthed player revealed.

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Players should get revealed if their attack is blocked/evaded. Players should get revealed upon leaving stealth, even if they dont attack anything or enter combat. No more DE being visible for 0.25 seconds while dodging into stealth again. No more thieves getting outplayed and having no penalty for it. Playing thief should actually require skill and not be carried by a poorly balanced mechanic.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:We could always give thief infinite duration stealth at click of one button and 0 resources used while out combat combined with 1 or 2 utility stealth kills doing the same while in combat on a balanced cd lol similar to wow, or even elder scrolls night blade version would be fine with me :)

You could also have a short time limit of stealth application from combos when in combat, or so that you can only combo once, other stealth utility works as normal duration. Out of combat comboing stealth stacking etc would work as it is now (or even longer duration), so you can still setup your engage with enough duration to cover some ground. You could also give the in combat stealth utility longer duration if you are only going to have 2. You can stealth for combat still, but it makes you dedicate to the fight, or leave, it would stop the constant resetting. For me, stealth I can deal with, if the player was forced to remain in the fight or if they decided to bail they have to actually bail like other classes have to.

Though I am not sure it's needed. I think my first suggestion would fix a good deal of what is annoying about fighting high stealth up time builds, I think most people don't understand how often people spam attacks from stealth that hit a block or miss etc etc. Most people I find on thief and ranger etc are just bad players and this would punish spam play and reward paying attention, I also think if the other player counters something they can't see coming, they should be rewarded by having the stealthed player revealed.

Yeah imo reveal on missed burst attempts should have been implemented long ago, even on any skill use aside from utility skills when in combat which would limit thief to 3 secs stealth when doing HS blast field but I'd lower revealed time to 1-1.5 secs when revealed from such where as other causes of reveal would be 3 secs.

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cap all stealth in game to 3 sec /thread. thieves don't need more than 3 sec at a time to survive, source? SD thieves/blinds. you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

change the traits that buff stealth in shadow arts to like increased life leech and shit like that to improve their sustain a bit. ez fix really

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@"Skada.1362" said:you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

"You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"oke.

@Zeesh.7286 said:I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable, ez fix, everything's balanced.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

"You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"oke.

@Zeesh.7286 said:I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable,
ez fix
, everything's balanced.

Dp is overpowered? Is it op just on the basis that the rest of the kits have been nerfed to point their not very good. Sd,sp,dd,and staff are all mediocre kits.If u actually look at each individual skill in dp compared to other classes most used kits its actually not great. HS does good damage if targets low health, can give stealth in smoke fields, shadowshot does good damage and blinds, headshot is only good at interrupt and its daze is repeatable a few times at 0 damage and .5 daze(lol) and black powder damage isn't great but gives u smoke field for HS. The autos are low damage so basically u have one heavy hitter in SS, one can hit hard if a criteria met with HS, and rest are low damage and not anything special. I feel like dp as a kit greatness is overstated, if wasnt for stealth access it would be gbage in reality.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Skada.1362" said:you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

"You know that one overperforming build? Well, nerf the whole class and every other build because of this one GG BALANCED OMEGATWITCHEMOTEOVERLOAD"oke.

@Zeesh.7286 said:I'll be happy if they put a modifier where if you went stealth, you can't go out of combat for like 15 secs or something after getting out of stealth and you can never go out of combat while you're in stealth.

Yeah, same with buffs including-but-not-limited-to aegis, healing effects, barriers, dodges and mobility skills. I don't like that someone can spam sustain/mobility skills on their builds and then go out of combat, so slap a random 15 second buffor on all of those as well. Actually lets leave everyone permanently in-combat in wvw and remove the safezones or unplayable,
ez fix
, everything's balanced.

Dp is overpowered? Is it op just on the basis that the rest of the kits have been nerfed to point their not very good. Sd,sp,dd,and staff are all mediocre kits.If u actually look at each individual skill in dp compared to other classes most used kits its actually not great. HS does good damage if targets low health, can give stealth in smoke fields, shadowshot does good damage and blinds, headshot is only good at interrupt and its daze is repeatable a few times at 0 damage and .5 daze(lol) and black powder damage isn't great but gives u smoke field for HS. The autos are low damage so basically u have one heavy hitter in SS, one can hit hard if a criteria met with HS, and rest are low damage and not anything special. I feel like dp as a kit greatness is overstated, if wasnt for stealth access it would be gbage in reality.

I don't see where I wrote anything about it being overpowered?

But it is overperforming in relation to the rest of the options, yup.

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@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

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I would also like to add how obnoxious thief is in WvW outside of combat and hiding in keeps/towers. I never thought i could dislike red border more then i did, but then they gave the thief a portal which just made having red border a freaking pain in the ass and so unfun that i just don't want to play those weeks.

Here is why. Not only did they give the thief a portal but since it is a preparation you have no clue if the thief that left the structure have a active portal or not. But wait it gets dumber. When you portal people in you and the people are stealthed. So you can easy get people in without anyone even freaking knowing so. But hey it is only 5 people, sure it is, and then they portal another thief or messmer and bam now you have the blob inside.

But wait it gets dumber. Since Deadeye have permastealth they can sit in the keep forever. And since we can not sniff a person in stealth we wont see them. Why don't you use stealth traps is probably your next claim, sure we do but this is dessert border and the keeps is so larges that you would litterally have to place thousands of traps to finally get them and since each person can only add 1 trap, yeah good luck with that.

But sometimes they do get in to the trap and now you have a short few second to get them, but hey you are on the other floor and just going to them and they are in stealth again. All keeps in dessert border have 3-4 levels and being on one side takes you half a min to get to the other. It is a impossible cat/rat game that can go on for hours. And if you actually do this you 1, loose your particiapation and gain no rewards no nothing. 2. It is the most boring thing ever to do. It litterally eat your braincells up and you want to claw your eyes out and you hate red border even more.

But wait there is more. After a while you feel you gonna die for real if you go on looking so you decide oh well it is 40 min since i saw him last he is "probably" not here anymore. You know he is but you can not just take it anymore so you leave and go and help on the border. 3 min after you see orange crosses in the lord room, and you are at Fire keep and you know you will never make it to Rampart and even if you did, the tactivators is nearly on top of the lord so getting people in will be a slaughter, but hey lets go back to never make it there in time because you dont because all structures and camps goes on contested 30 sec before it show on the map. So camps you can forget because everything is more then 30 sec away structures you might make it unless it is a smaller group because they kill lord faster.

Next week it is Alpine borderland. Here you have the time to run to all camps all structures and finding thiefs is roughly 99% easier then on red border.

I have no idea why thiefs god stealth portals and perma stealth. It is the dumbest idea ever made and WvW and how that would play out on red borders can not have been in mind on anyone who came up with this idea. It is a pain, it is unfun and there is zero real counter too it.

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@"Skada.1362" said:cap all stealth in game to 3 sec /thread. thieves don't need more than 3 sec at a time to survive, source? SD thieves/blinds. you get 5 sec blind per shadowshot which is omegalul op so thieves will be just fine. honestly as SA DP dash you, most of the time, don't even need to stack stealth to obliterate people simply dash around and land shadowshots then heartseekers. auto in black powder gg ez mode.

Capping stealth duration is a good idea, but 3 is too low. It also breaks utilities like Shadow Refuge entirely. 6 baseline, and whatever Shadow Refuges max duration is for Shadow Refuge seems reasonable though. Also, you do know that blind is a one-time thing? It being 1 second or 5 second doesnt matter, its why Shadowshots blind is pretty pathetic.

change the traits that buff stealth in shadow arts to like increased life leech and kitten like that to improve their sustain a bit. ez fix really

Those don't really matter for thief all that much (or at all), so sure, remove the increased stealth duration and keep only the "when in stealth gain X" traits. Oh and I guess give thief some damage again. Without permastealth oneshots, we dont need to keep their damage down.

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@Salt Mode.3780 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will lower your damage.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Many great suggestions from people who never played thief and want to see it destroyed,much wow.

d/p, s/d, s/p, p/d, staff, dont need high stealth uptime to be effective. Its only dumb gimmick builds like SA rifle DE and smoke field spamming bound DD that have completely 1 dimensional gameplay centered around constantly stealthing.

How many of the non stealth thief builds are competitive, u see any in mats? Really doesn't matter whether a thief build relies on stealth or not they will always get complained about due to the rogue archetypes design. Sd visble-nerfed it, barely seen these days, sp viable- nerfed it, barely seen these days, staff build-nerfed it, barely seen these days. Those three builds didn't utilize stealth yet when they were viable the non thief players whined until the devs caved and nerfed them. Dagger dagger is gbage for yrs and yrs now. So now dp is used BECAUSE its high stealth access and blinds but without the high stealth if u actually look at each skill in dp kit they are not that great. Hs hits hard if enemy low hp, ss hits hard and blinds, headshot is .5 daze for perfect timing interups(lolz), blinding powder is low damage blind field and lastly autos are weak. Without high stealth access dp would need a full rework to not suck even worse than the other less played kits lol.Maybe nerf stealth access but buff the other non stealth kits back up as well. U guys won't like that idea as that still would leave thief in existence lol.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naaah... come on, it's not.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

I take DA and CS in my core build but if I wanted to sustain myself and keep pressuring consistently in different scale fights I'd leech and syphon with SA. Some kits push SA into that area where it's going to have to be dealt with, not so much other trait lines. For raw damage when I can't funnel and drag some people I'm with you though, and SA takes a bit of a dive if one or two people can keep tethered to you out of radius, that's just a little hard to do against dagger/pistol.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:It is okey for us theefs as long as we get moar dmg and much more substain when out of stealth

Maybe perhaps stop running SA and you will get dmg.

Spoken like someone who doesnt know thief. Spoiler: SA is the highest damage traitline in its slot. It replaced DA after DA was nerfed so hard that it does less damage than SA. Any other traitline you choose will
lower
your damage.

Naw man raw damage both DA and CS out damage SA, CS by a large margin. SA is taken more for its small damage gain but huge utility. Damage from venous and leech arnt very great but combine it with the utility the line gives u and it definitely lends to the thief being more prepared for more situations than the other lines especially with the added sustainability with the high stealth access it grants.

On paper, but not in practice. In practice you don't get enough condis on the enemy for the Exploit Weakness trait to give you enough damage, and executioner is only active when you dont need the damage anymore. CS would do more damage, but its modifiers are turned inactive way too quickly. Its good on exactly rifle because rifle avoids that issue (which is why Rifle is the only weapon where CS > SA), but on D/P, SA will just do more damage in most scenarios. The damage is not as small as you think, its around 600+ damage that bypasses armour, thats more than what DA will usually do.

I play CS over SA on both staff and dp dd, on staff for obvious reasons and on dp cuz I prefer high risk high damage playstyle so when i back stab, HS or SS i do almost 1.5-2 x the damage on those bursts with CA than I do on SA. my sustain and utility take a huge hit but I down players far faster. SA provides far less risk for almost as much reward which is over all a better scenario in most situations, I just prefer my skills to be more burst heavy and impact full when the do connect vs the idea of being a bit less impact full but being more dependable as far as connecting.

On Staff SA is worse, given you dont use stealth on it, but thats where you use DA. D/P uses SA, its better. And even best case scenario with CS (which is "none of the modifiers turned off like they usually do), you will at most do roughly 30% more damage, ish. Not 1.5 or 2 times.

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