Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Why is Discipline so common in builds?


Dao Jones.6720

Recommended Posts

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:

Would absolutely love to see something new there myself.

Something to add since we talk about Arms and signets are part of Arms, as mentioned countless times, Healing Signet has been butchered. Now if it was a better passive heal, maybe I wouldn't advocate for a form of sustain in arms, but there's that.

Strength and Discipline can lowkey be altered way more than the eye can see tbh. And while we are at it, Major Master 3 in Strength also looks like a subpar trait, cause extra vit was never really an issue with warrior. perhaps something like this could be instead implemented in Discipline, so we can have some form of sustain option (heal/vit) inb all 5 core specs. This would greatly enhance the elite specs too, without crazy sustain coming from them either (for what it's worth, spellbreaker was way too many powerful defense options).

My take on what needs to happen to Strength:

Remove Great Fortitude and replace it with:
Deadly Sprint:
Movement Skills grant swiftness (5s), 10s CD. Swiftness grants 1/2 stacks of might (5s) per second. (PvE/Comp split)

Merge Might Makes Right into Pinnacle of Strength, reduce the healing scaling from 0.02 to 0.01, in its place in the Grandmaster Tier add the following:
Unstoppable Momentum:
Movement skills travel longer distances. Each movement skill travels 150 further.

Change Restorative Strength to:When you use a heal skill cast Lesser "For Great Justice!".
Lesser For Great Justice:
Grant 3 stacks of might for 6s and fury for 6s to allies within range. No split. Yes, it counts as a shout. Yes, I am aware of the relevant trait interactions, that is why it is only 3 might stacks.

Body Blow:
Change the single stack of bleed to 500 damage (0.6 scaling), can critically hit. Body Blow otherwise is unchanged, which means Stability will negate the extra damage, but that AoE CCs will do AoE damage, and Hammer gets to actually benefit from Merciless Hammer.

With those changes you have in Strength a line that enhances damage via might and power increases or flat damage modifiers, a line that enhances CCs ,reduces the CDs of physical skills most of which are CCs, and a line that enhances movement skills, one of each such line in each tier directly competing with one another
WHICH IS INHERENTLY SELF BALANCING
.

Merging MMR into Pinnacle of Strength opens up build diversity since it is such a critical trait to warrior survivability it has become mandatory, and such things should be placed within minor traits. The healing scaling reduction is for moving it to a minor trait, alternatively the base heal could be reduced to 75 hp in competitive play.

This results in a more cohesive traitline where each trait has a distinct purpose, is not dead weight, and is worthy of taking each in their own right and thus actually compete for their slots. It also solidifies the theme of the traitline to be Endurance and HP gain on the minor traits and Damage, CC, and Mobility enhancements via the major traits.

Each traitline, on every class, needs to be treated like this. Each of the three traits in a tier need to have themes that are common across the tiers, that are equally useful, and stand on their own with anything that is viewed as absolutely mandatory placed into or merged into a minor trait. If Fast Hands were a major trait, it would always be taken, there is a reason it is a minor trait.

Takes Arms for example.

In each tier one trait needs to augment condition builds, one to augment critical hit chance or precision, and that last needs to be a trait focused on dual wielding. Dual wielding is a theme of Arms along with critical hit chance and condition damage, but was only ever relegated to a single useless trait. There needs to be three traits there, one in each tier focused on dual wielding.

I would merge Crack Shot into Wounding Precision (keep the Crack Shot name), make the current AA effects it grants baseline, and turn it into:
Crack Shot:
Gain 10% Condition duration. This Duration is doubled if using a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons have 20% reduced weapon skill CDs.

In Crack Shot's former place in Discipline I would add in +25% critical damage versus foes under 50% HP trait, call it Warrior's Ferocity.

Signet Mastery:
Change to grant stacks of Signet of Precision (+100 precision per stack) otherwise it is unchanged. This change is because Discipline is the historical Ferocity traitline, not Arms.

Unsuspecting Foe:
Disabling a foe grants fury (5s), 10s CD. Fury you gain has increased effectiveness (Fury grants 30% Critical hit chance).

Replace Opportunist with the following:
Weapon Master:
When wielding an mainhand weapon in you offhand your critical strikes gain enhanced effects:Axe: 33% chance on crit to inflict cripple (2s).Sword: 33% chance to inflict torment (5s).Mace: 33% chance to inflict weakness (2s).Dagger: 33% chance to strip a boon.(And if we get Pistol/Pistol or /Pistol there would have to be a relevant effect here based on Pistol's theme(s).)

Change Sundering Burst to Sundering Blows:
Sundering Blows:
Critical hits have a 50% chance to inflict vulnerability (5s). Inflicting vulnerability heals you for 45 hp. These effects are doubled if you are wielding an mainhand weapon in your offhand. No healing scaling, just a flat 45 heal, 90 if you are dual wielding. Taking the FGS approach here to greater shore up the dual wielding theme, but I want other weapons to have access to a small source of sustain within Arms.

Burst Precision:
Reduce the critical hit chance to +25%. This effect now lingers for 1s per bar of adrenaline spent.With the new Signet Mastery and Unsuspecting Foe you can run a 0 Precision build like some other classes can. This offers more build diversity since it opens up a stat for other things. You'd lose out on other things though, so it may not be an optimal decision to make since it requires 3 traits, one of which requires a ramp up time.

Dual Wielding:
Gain 15% increased attack speed. This effect is doubled if you wield a mainhand weapon in your offhand. *Special notes: I would advocate for the increased attack speed from Berserk Mode to stack with this effect. The base increase is to help with Warrior's chronically telegraphed attacks to be a bit faster and less telegraphed, you just have to take a trait for it.

Very good points. I'm particularly interested on your Lesser FGJ suggestion. Lesser shouts, just as lesser stance effects on a reworked defense, should be a bit more prevalent. Shrug it off is a good example of that. Hell, somehow putting somewhere a lesser "fear me" as a defense mechanism which currently works with Cull the weak too, would be a very interesting idea!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:

Very good points. I'm particularly interested on your Lesser FGJ suggestion. Lesser shouts, just as lesser stance effects on a reworked defense, should be a bit more prevalent. Shrug it off is a good example of that. Hell, somehow putting somewhere a lesser "fear me" as a defense mechanism which currently works with Cull the weak too, would be a very interesting idea!Fear me should not have a lesser version that is automatic. An AoE fear when CC'd would be too powerful and CmC would slap a 300s CD on it.

Anet needs to go through all the specs leading up to EoD and streamline them like I did above in my two examples.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:@Dao Jones.6720 I apologize that your thread for derailed away from Discipline, but you've touched a nerve on the state of Warrior traitlines. Discipline is so common really because after Strength there really isn't anything better unless you are rolling an elite spec.

Not at all! I’m actually finding the conversation interesting. While some of the specific issues seem to be magnified for PvP/WvW, the overall discussion remains interesting given that I’ve found I’m enjoying Warrior much more than I did 8 years ago. Plus, now I’m running with Discipline, as well as Tactics because Healing Shouts seems like a better add than anything you get out of Defense or Arms. (Although I do miss the 20% attack speed increase from Dual Wielding. It was fun being a spastic A/A blender.)

I do wish the traitlines were better arranged, like most of you seem to. Some of the other classes have pretty clear themes for their traits, whereas Warrior just kinda has stuff everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there's a problem right now that spellbreaker outshines defense, why would you take defense that barely gives you any sustain when u have spellbreaker which gives u tons of sustain on top of damage, i think defense is in a more awkward situation compared to arms, arms atleast still have pve condition build

defense is literally a garbage version of spellbreaker for when u have berserker so u cant take spellbreaker.that leads to another problem, berserker's sustain is too weak that u needs to spec for defense, even with defense berserker is still unplayable for how garbage the sustain is, for the lack of might gen. and that by picking defense, berserker not only does less damage in pvp, but also has less sustain then spellbreaker.and this leads to another problem, when u spec for might gen, strength is just a better defense trait with sustain and damage together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed , like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills , the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds. All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.Look at this
every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there. Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items. Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline or lets take another class with hard defined main mechanic like warrior, Necromancer, it can be played in variety of ways without the need of soul reaping . The shroud mechanic takes a step back and becomes supplement as a defensive tool so even though shroud is the main mechanic it does not need traits to function well. Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons. When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline. You can do a minute man build STR/ARMS/Berserker for pvp where you burst down people with signets for about 5 seconds and then wait for cooldowns and if you fail these 5 well you wait there being useless and most probably dead, not exactly all rounder build is it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.Look at this
every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy with itself than it has with warrior as a class.

Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make another vague list of stuff then what's even the point.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.Look at this
every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy
with itself
than it has with warrior as a class.

Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make
another vague list of stuff
then what's even the point.How is it random all of the things I list are important. The metabattle list shows that every build uses discipline in pvp , wvw and pve builds on other professions can go for other traitlines, thief for pve does not use trickery(even though they fucked around with ini cost and getting the 2 bonus ini baseline at this point is probably for the better to don't fuck with the internal clock on people), guardian no virtues on most pve builds . There isn't a good build without discipline straight and simple, warrior is about hitting shit with sticks, you have 2 sticks and each stick is made from something different and when you get angry you hit them differently, Discipline lets you swap the sticks more often and lets you get angry more often, all of the skills on warrior are either set up to smack someone with a stick or to protect you while waking someone with a stick. There aren't many sticks that can camp for 10 seconds or more and those that can camp have their traits in discipline. It is quite simple warrior is defined by weapon bar the most, and discipline lets you use it properly and there is another traitline that can exchange it to change up the playstyle while keeping the flow. The line is mandatory witch fucks with theory craft on warrior. Almost all professions have builds that can be defined with their utility skills traps, wells, spirits, minions, gyros warrior is pigeonholed on its weapons, which is not bad per say just that it lacks options with using them.To your question I play all professions but my personal preference are the full contact ones over the hit and run ones, I play the odd thief here and there but it the proper way of playing it really clashes with my fun of fighting . Does this answer your question of "Do you even play BRO?" ?I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.Look at this
every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy
with itself
than it has with warrior as a class.

Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make
another vague list of stuff
then what's even the point.How is it random all of the things I list are important.

Linking metabattle changes nothing about what I said there or about your initial claims that I found and still find mostly false. Maybe start with actually responding to my first response to you, not sure how else to say it.

Ah and about this:

I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.

Notice how I answered that to the things where you didn't give any examples or specifics, but instead just some vague claims:

  1. "like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ," -what is this even supposed to mean??
  2. "and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds." -how?How are those claims specifics "with examples for proof"? Maybe re-read your first post with my answers and you'll see that there's barely any specifics at all, mostly all you did there was providing a random list of vague claims. By far not what you NOW claim you said there. But no problem, if "my feelings don't fly with you", next time I respond to your vague claims, I'll just decide they're false until you come up with specifics supporting those exact same statements. Which just linking metabattle definitely isn't.
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:It seems you're just throwing anything you can think of regardless of whether or not it's true, but lets go through things you've listed to show how I feel about them:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

It's not "necessary", it's "strong" -and it would be for any other class as well. :D If anything "strong"/"optimal"/"meta" is classified as "necessary" and automatically somehow is a reason to make it baseline then we end up with one build per class and no trait system.

(...I guess it's this time of the year again :p )The thing is Warrior has Burst skills as main mechanic and they are tied to the weapon you are wielding

Yes, the burst skills are the only thing that are somewhat connected to weapon swap imo. But they still have 8sec icd, so that connection is still sort of limited.

for the other classes it doesn't matter weapon you are wielding to cast your special mechanic so the 5 s swap gives you the ability to use it when needed ,

For some more than the other, but the weapon swap is still effectively as good as a 4 (I'm not counting 1 here, might be worth counting for swapping between melee/range weapons, where that range will make difference, in some cases more than in other) skillbar toggle. Those skills have their utility and the more free you are to swap between them without being bound to the entire skillset for 9 seconds, the better you can use their potential. Right? This is the primary reason I say lowering weaponswap cd is strong for pretty much any class regardless of their mechanics.

like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ,

That might be somewhat true in some cases, but in general... I'm not sure about that.

the utilities are supplementary and most of the power on warrior comes from Weapons

The utilities are exactly like you pick them. If you pick active skills, they're active. If you pick passive skills... they'll be passive/supplementary (but I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean by "supplementary"? Isn't this the case for most classes/builds?). Warrior isn't really so different in this aspect in comparison to other professions.

and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds.

This seems mostly false to me?

All of the tuning on warrior over the years has been made with Discipline being always taken even though the traits on it are really basic they make warrior work. Imagine if thief had to take some traitline so it can use stealth attacks or dual wield attacks.

Sorry, but is warrior, by any chance, the only class you play? This (having a go-to spec) is the case for a lot classes and by bringing up thief as a comparison you basically shoot yourself in the foot ;p Not only that, but claming that warrior without disci is somehow locked out of mechanics is a huge stretch if not straight up false. Sure, warrior is strong with disci, but it's because disci offers a lot of utility and passive power.Look at this
every build uses Discipline I checked them even expected to not see it on some WvW builds but nope it is in there.

I don't know what this is supposed to be answering to and how does it change anything I wrote above?

Both of the elite specks on warrior are all about bursts, there isn't much room to wiggle on warrior with the build craft. I used as an example Thief since it has multiple special mechanics that come out of the box without the need to trait for them, stealth attacks, dual wield, the energy system that lets you use skills without cd, steal and stolen items.

Warrior doesn't need any spec to use the burst skills, let alone discipline, not sure what that's about.Pretty much every competitive thief build is cornered into trickery btw, right? Time to make it baseline.

Lets use another profession then Guardian, virtues and the elite versions are not that defining and has variety of builds all the time without the need for the Virtues traitline

...discipline isn't "defining" either. And every guard build seems to be using virtues. Looks about the same to me, the main difference being: you only play warrior, so if the same situation takes place in another class then it doesn't matter "because I said so and my class deserves making strongest traits into innate profession passive effects". It really seems this is all it is about. In the end discipline has much more synergy
with itself
than it has with warrior as a class.

Almost all of the utilities on warrior are there to help it use its weapons better, there is no trap something well something to define a build it is always weapons.

No, it's not. Maybe it is for the triats you're using, but it's not a general rule. I also don't understand how "trap/well" has any relevance here?

When you look at all the utilities you can see that rage, meditations, stances and physical skills are all about making weapons work better and then you have shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself or in PVE do more dps so you dip into discipline.

What are you even talking about here? "shouts and banners which are about support force you to use weapons to defend yourself"? What? Physical skills are "all about making weapons work"? Some of those skills have as much utility as you could ask from a utility skill, not sure what you're complaining about here. Stances are just stances with varrying effects, it's similar for some of the other classes. Meditations also have varying offensive/defensive/utility effects, not sure how it's somehow "all about weapons" here. Pretty similarly with rage. You're stretching this whole thing pretty thin here...

Anyways, it would be better if you just answered to what I wrote before in the responseto your initial post instead of trying to list random things and claiming they're "all about weapons", when they're not. If I tried to answer specifically to what you wrote and then you just skip right over it just to make
another vague list of stuff
then what's even the point.How is it random all of the things I list are important.

Linking metabattle changes nothing about what I said there or about your initial claims that I found and still find mostly false. Maybe start with actually responding to my first response to you, not sure how else to say it.

Ah and about this:

I go out of my way to write why I believe something works the way it is with examples for proof and all I get is "nahh its not like that" with some vague hearsay, if I'm wrong explain why and how with examples "I feel its wrong" doesn't fly with me.

Notice how I answered that to the things where you didn't give any examples or specifics, but instead just some vague claims:
  1. "like the other classes, also warrior doesn't have much room with skills ," -what is this even supposed to mean??
  2. "and almost all sets are tuned to be swapped on 5 seconds." -how?How are those claims specifics "with examples for proof"?

And back to circles again, the claim is that Discipline is mandatory and some stuff can be baselined like some mechanics on other classes, I show the site that used to measure the supposed best builds for warrior on all game modes I can pull more sites that show the same builds, you can use the way back machine and see that the builds on warrior always use discipline, not because it has some big deeps multipliers but because it makes the gameplay flow better all the while it changes the gameplay loop to a level that can separate warrior from the other professions with something simple yet special.

Warrior has 17 skills 18 on elites all of the skills are on quick use you press it does something its over so there isn't much room to sit around and wait for 10 seconds for weapons swap, there is no in between cds like for example necro, all of the weapons on warrior complete their combo in 5 seconds or less and then you burst and then you switch since the basic attacks on almost all weapons are not that great to supplement a 10 second weapon switch , there is exception like axe axe which can be ran for longer but the trait for it is in discipline. Lets take ele for an example it has 4 sets of weapon skills, both ele and warrior work generally the same on cooldowns but warrior has a loop of two sets on short cd while ele has 4 loops on 10 second cd, so warrior can compete with ele even though it has less options to work with. Lets say we have a traitline that gives you the option to have 4 sets of weapons on 10s cd like ele does that could compete with discipline but there is no such thing so you either run discipline or you don't reach your mechanical potential. Why a 5s weapons switch, the walls of text I wrote and the fact that traitline combinations without discipline do not work well even for PVE since you end up with dead zones of tempo where you just hit basic attacks that are not really that good and for PVP you end up with a 5 second gap without anything to retaliate with .I still haven't heard why I'm wrong , and I'm getting tired of explaining how the simplest profession in the game works.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or as true as for most other classes).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has more chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc it should be pretty fucking obvious. Because the warri without will be stuck trying to avoid damage or only relying on auto's for the remaining 5 sec.

I play this game since 2012,warri was my main. A warri without disc is a fail vs proper players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Caedmon.6798 said:It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?...aaand also true for many other classes btw

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Caedmon.6798" said:5 Sec cooldown on swap is just necessary imo. It should have been baseline long ago.

No, it shouldn't be baseline long ago or now ... for many reasons.

Just in case anyone thinks this hasn't been discussed ... I've got your covered:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72573/discipline-more-specifically-fast-hands/p1

@Sobx.1758 said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

Absolutely. People need to be careful how they justify things. Also something discussed in the posted link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?...aaand also true for many other classes btw

@Caedmon.6798 said:It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?...aaand also true for many other classes btw

The fuck are you even on about ? My comment is solely about the 5 sec weap swap. Ive had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of duels against other warris. A warri without 5 sec swap Will be in a disadvantage,in every situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Caedmon.6798" said:You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "
I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't
". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

Youre not making much sense.

I already gave reasons as why to,im not about to repeat myself. Or do you want to ignore the examples i gave ?

It kinda says enough that you think that a 10 sec weap swap is not inferior to a 5 sec though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?...aaand also true for many other classes btw

@Caedmon.6798 said:It IS mandatory. A warri with a 10 sec weap swap has less chance as a warri with a 5 sec weap swap. Its not that hard to figure out whats better to use.

E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other,who will win ? In the case of losing disc its pretty kitten obvious.

Take a meta pvp build from any class and put it against a non-meta build of the same class. Who will win? Take war without str or without spellbreaker spec and put it against the usual one, who will win? What is this supposed to prove? That more optimized pvp build is more optimal than less optimized? So I guess put all of those traits as baseline, because it's stronger than it would be without them?...aaand also true for many other classes btw

The kitten are you even on about ? My comment is solely about the 5 sec weap swap.

This is what I directly responded to: "the claim is that Discipline is mandatory "I said: "it's not mandatory, it's a strong choice"You said: "it is mandatory"....actually you even literally wrote this in your post: "E.g, warri with and a warri without disc dueling each other".

So, um... That's "what I'm about".

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Sobx.1758" said:It's not mandatory, it's just a strong choice. A trait being strong to the point you want to take it all the time isn't an argument to make it baseline, but it sure can be an argument to nerf it.

And asking you about specifics on some of your vague -and for now seemingly false- claims isn't "going in circles".

it makes the gameplay flow better

No way that having more freedom by not being locked into a weaponset for 9 seconds "makes the gameplay flow better"? It's almost as if that would be true for other classes as well because it's just objectively strong due to how this game works by connecting skillbar with separate cds to weapon swap?!

Your claim that warrior's weapons are somehow "tuned around 5 second swap" is as false as it was the first time you mentioned it.Your claim about warrior utilities just being "tied to weapons" (or something? <.<) is also false (or
as true as for most other classes
).Burst skills still have icd, so you can't keep casting them every 5 seconds. (unless... you know... you pick disci anyways)

Overally I'm still waiting for you to respond specifically to what I wrote above instead of just comming up with a new blob of text throwing whatever you can regardless of most of these things being either false or universally true for most of the other classes in hopes that something sticks. Literally quote a single thing and respond to it. Quote another and respond. Specifically, so I can finally understand what you're responding to.Several pages of explanation why the fuck discipline is mandatory and he says I haven't read a why. It is not a strong choice it is the only choice there is no alternative traitline that lets you use your skills, if you remove discipline warrior becomes worse Ranger at best, the whole point of the 5 second swap is to let you use Burst skills on demand since you have 2 and the game has been balanced and reworked with that in mind. Lets take GS for example, on guardian you have several skills that combo with each other you pull you drop the seal on the ground you spin and you even cleanse conditions from people, lets take warrior gs well it doesn't combo with itself very well does it you need cc to land thousand blades, but the gs does not have hard cc you either take cc utility or you take a cc weapon.

All other classes do not have a trait that lets them swap weapons fast so their weapons are designed to be used for 10 seconds the exceptions are engi and weaver, engi has kits no cd on them and on holo it has holoforge which also has 5 second cd between uses, and weaver has 5 second attune to mix elements which its main mechanic you know their 3 skill basically burst skill, both of these come baseline with the elite.

By just existing the 5 second swap Arenanet has to take it into consideration every time buff or nerf a weapon set so the weapons, and that has happened from the start of the game. The most ironic thing that I mentioned is that the one weapon set that is not hindered by slow weapon swap is the axe axe which has its trait in Discipline . If warrior was not designed with 5 second swap why would berserker have 5 second cd on bursts.

Lets talk about the utilities, other classes have standalone skills that function without the need of a weapon to follow through warrior does not have such skills.False is not an argument without proper explanation. You are asking why 5 second swap is good and am saying that the whole Discipline traitline is mandatory cause there is no other traitline that can allow warrior to be on equal ground as the rest of the classes in ALL modes, since you cannot reach their average performance without it, the 5 second swap might help ARMs take the slot or the other option is to define Discipline as the power option and arms as the condition option and rework the condition weapons to be good without the need of discipline.The big gripe here is that there isn't much room for theory crafting on warrior since the slot will always be taken by Discipline which leaves only 2 slots to work with and usually one goes for the elite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's try a different approach:

WHY does FH need to be baseline? What problem are you trying to solve doing that?

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:You dont have me covered. Ive played Warri for thousands of hours,i actually know what im talking about. I dont dont give a kitten what other people say based on my own experiences.

If you want to justify Fast Hands as baseline, then give us a reason we can talk about that isn't "
I've played THIS long and I just know things you don't
". I'm just saying whatever reason you can come up with ... I bet it's been addressed in that thread.

Youre not making much sense.NO, that's not fair ... I'm making LOTS of sense ... there isn't anything nonsensical about asking for a reason why this should be baseline.

I already gave reasons as why to,im not about to repeat myself.That's perfect because examples aren't reasons to make FH baseline. I'm not asking you to give me scenarios where FH is advantageous.

It kinda says enough that you think that a 10 sec weap swap is not inferior to a 5 sec though.

5 being better than 10 isn't a reason to change it. Just being better isn't a reason to change ANYTHING.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...