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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?


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@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:I say introduce a baseline easy mode simply to get more buck from the work already put into raids (the va, music, enemy models, etc) by reusing whats there.

That wouldn't lead to more Raids, only waste resources. We already have content which is easy (Strikes) and content that has multiple tiers (Fractals), and their release cadence is absolutely terrible, so the absence of tiers or an easy difficulty isn't the reason we don't get more Raids. Unless Strike Missions get more releases first I don't expect Fractals to do so. And unless Fractals get more stable releases, Raids won't increase either. That's my "logical path" to a stable release cadence.

Btw have you posted any strike statistics yet?

No. But let's take a look, as always I'll use episode start/end percentages (to illustrate the amount of total activity) with the percentages of strike missions.Bound by Blood: 43% / 36% / 27% (Shiverpeak Pass)Whisper in the Dark: 39% / 36% / 23% (Voice and Claw)Shadow in the Ice: 34% / 32% / 18% (Whisper of Jormag) / 19% (Fraenir of Jormag
) 7 % (Boneskinner
)Forging Steel: 30% / 29%No Quarter: 32% / 25% / 1% (Cold War**)Jormag Rising: 25% / 22%

*This is the achievement to kill the boss without being downed or defeated, because the regular one from Whisper in the Dark is not available on gw2efficiency** This is the achievement to kill the boss 50 times, because there is nothing else to track about this Strike Mission, actual one-kills should be much higher

It's unfortunate that we don't have any results for Fraenir and Boneskinner without their special achievements, and no single-kill achievement for Cold War.

My view in this subject is what you described with the metas above, most ppl just want to pew pew with no real thought. If you take a raid and only just change the fight, keeping everything else the same, release it and suddenly the participation in raids doubles because of it then i think that gives one more reason to keep releasing raids because the instances, music, dialogue etc are made for multiple modes and the only real time goes to figuring out the fight for each mode.

If you were to take the easy lanes from metas i reckon the environment would become more heated and some ppl would flat out drop the activity. They go there because theres a braidless role to fill.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another proof that increasing rewards isn't the answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such an great "mechanic"...But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another prove that increasing rewards isn't an answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

I don't disagree with this. The thread here is just a hypothetical discussion about how raids could change to be attractive to more players and I don't think there is ANY question that something needs to change if that's to happen. Frankly, I don't think making changes to raids can bring back their development because it's clear to me Anet has moved on ... but if more raid development was being considered, I know what changes I would propose if it was to happen AND if a reboot was to be more successful than the initial release.

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@"frareanselm.1925" said:talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

I know you're saying it's just an example, but I'd be extremely surprised if "most people" playing games - especially online games - did not have a headset or mic. I can picture a decent amount of people having social anxiety or whatever and not wanting to USE voice channels, but a large percentage of gamers would definitely have a mic or headset.

One thing I will say though is you're right about the Discord/etc thing - it's a bit silly that this game doesn't have some form of integrated team voice chat and having to use another platform for that is annoying (even though I already have a Discord account).

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@lare.5129 said:it is easy: make Raid Attunement 1, Raid Attunement 2, Raid Attunement 3 and Raid Attunement 4 !Wiht mostly same Effect type: and bonus at 1, 2,3, 4 .. on 4 same gain 7% outgoing damage, and 100 health per second, less 4% incoming damageTitle Raid God, same requement to buy Attunement, so it on 4 it will be 2000 li, 300 matrix, ...

Solved?It won't solve anything:-people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?-people that will get it don't need the extra stats.

Raid doesn't have to be accessible to all though.Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.One of each per year while keeping le map would be already awesome, but two would be better ?

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Release raids on a regular schedule using industry norms, 6 to 7 month. When a gamemode is no longer being developed, it will wither. Look at pvp and wvw as examples. Easymode raids will not work, look at strikes.Now look at fractals, with the introduction of cm100, i see alot more cm groups than before.

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@CasualElitist.8795 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Seems more like a way to kill raids than help them.

How would you fix them?

I would fix players instead, who talk about this huge entry barrier for raids, while they don't understand it's the endgame content and autoattacking in green random gear is not what you are expected to do here, who refuse to gear properly and join training runs to actually learn the content instead of whining for easy mode raids. Raids are easy.

then give raids endgame reward, like WvW was supposed endgame and the rewards are crap. Lets see how many players would be left.

But seriously, you make a mode for 1% of the player base and then act surprised that participation is low?

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@Pacificterror.7805 said:

@"frareanselm.1925" said:talking with friends we agree that the raid mechanics require teamspeak/discord participation, and most people dont have microphone or headset, for example, that's dissuasive.

I know you're saying it's just an example, but I'd be extremely surprised if "most people" playing games - especially online games - did not have a headset or mic. I can picture a decent amount of people having social anxiety or whatever and not wanting to USE voice channels, but a large percentage of gamers would definitely have a mic or headset.

One thing I will say though is you're right about the Discord/etc thing - it's a bit silly that this game doesn't have some form of integrated team voice chat and having to use another platform for that is annoying (even though I already have a Discord account).

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such an great "mechanic"...But here we are, for some reason people that are uninterested in completing actual raid encounters (and figure them out by themselves or watch/read one of many outside resources to guide them by hand through every mechanic) will come to the forum and pretend that they want to "save raids". No, they don't want to "save raids", they aren't interested in them in the first place. If they are interested in rewards, then that's just another prove that increasing rewards isn't an answer, because apparently they already want them but still can't be bothered with the raids themselves.Learn the content or leave it and... you know... don't get rewarded for it.

I don't disagree with this. The thread here is just a hypothetical discussion about how raids could change to be attractive to more players and I don't think there is ANY question that something needs to change if that's to happen. Frankly, I don't think making changes to raids can bring back their development because it's clear to me Anet has moved on ... but if more raid development was being considered, I know what changes I would propose if it was to happen AND if a reboot was to be more successful than the initial release.

I think it would be a mistake for Anet to abandon raids altogether. There's too much cultural overhead around them in MMOs in general, it will look bad for GW2 to have an abandoned raid system in the long run.

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I've editted my OP with a system that I think makes way more sense.

Here is my new idea (also editted into the OP):

I feel like it would be a mistake for Anet to abandon raids because of the cultural overhead they carry in MMOs at large. In fact what they've already done with Dungeons is bad IMO, but I'll address that later. Given the negative feedback on my original idea and other ideas presented, I have a better idea, and still think people should talk on this thread.

I can identify these issues:

1) There's no incentive for grouping with new people - the rewards only come faster the more experienced your group2) People in GW2 at large are used to pugging, even if they enjoy group content. This goes for fractals, dungeons DRMs. I rarely run with guildies and guildies rarely ping. I usually do a scheduled activity with my guild of a different sort if anything at all.3) Raids tend to have "pony trick" mechanics with devastating results if people don't know it. They usually require skills beyond just dodging a breaking bars that are normally only applicable that fight (Druid pusher in VG, Druid push in SH (still different than VG though as push skills are different between the 2), hand kite in Deimos, Mushrooms in Sloth, etc. This means getting in a PuG with anyone is a massive liability.4) Raid training - culturally I have to say this is a very foreign concept. Most training runs I've been in don't necessarily focus on kills which I've never seen in another MMO and is a testament to the technical complexity of GW2 raids. This is demoralizing in the context of trying to break into the larger raid scene - people want to see KP to want you around.5) An unsolvable problem - scale. I say unsolvable because making the parties bigger with the pony trick mechanics will only make them more frustrating IMO. I don't see Anet doing an entire refactor of old raids to solve this. And maybe they shouldn't. The pony tricks, as annoying as they

I think that Strikes and raids need to be merged, i.e. there is a strike version and a raid version for each encounter. This solves #2. The strike versions are intended to be PuGGable and all operate much like IB strikes in terms of reward structure, the only caveat being Maguuma ones give magnetite shards instead of IB strike crystals and the PoF ones give gaeting crystals instead of IB strike Crystals. The strike rewards a special crafting material in the weekly strike chest that can convert into LIs and LDs, LIs don't drop in the strike versions (maybe you get 1 of this currency per boss per week in the chest but you need 3 to buy an LI, this makes raids still superior for getting legendary gear and rewards in general). The echo system could easily be overloaded to accomplish this. People will still be rewarded more for doing raids than strikes and people who can't commit to statics can still experience the content and eventually get the rewards (albeit slower, which is fair in context).

To toss a bone to the raid community, they could add raid versions of all the current IB strikes. The IB raids could drop 3x of the above mentioned LI/LD conversion currency per boss so they could be used as progress towards legendary rewards for current raiders.

Additionally, the strike versions should be done in a way that mimics the actual raid mechanics, so if players notice they do well in the strike, then they can go ahead and do the raid version with their current group (it would be nice if the strike mission grades them on mechanics and suggest they continue, but that's asking for a lot. Maybe after completing the strike it gives a poll to the group asking if they want to attempt the raid and somewhere on the strike UI it explains what passing the raid version in the strike looks like so the group can have some good judgement on their decision). An example I've experienced like this was Argus the unmaker in Legion -> I did LFR tons and tons and enough of the mechanics were there that I did fine in my Heroic PuG the night before BFA launch (snagging my spellwing in just the nick of time!). This solves #3 and makes strikes a true bridge between raids and strikes, which they aren't currently. #3 builds on the issue in #2, you have to be in a group that has the pony trick experience in order to succeed in raids. Basically you can PuG the strikes until you find yourself in a good enough group to do the raid version.

To solve #1, I would have extra rewards for helping a group beat a raid with at least 3 players that haven't finished it that week yet. Probably mostly raw gold 1-2 and maybe 1 rare. That way if you like to lurk strikes and are a proficient raider, it could be very lucrative and you could help the community by training people in your strikes.

number 4 is solved by the above. The strikes themselves become raid training and now the community can loosely help each other and then commit to raiding if they happen to find themselves in a proficient group.

I got nothing for #5 but feel like it's a non-issue if there's more community involvement as a whole.

But really, doing this, everyone wins. People who like strikes get more content and more incentive to do them, raiders get more raids. ANd it's not really a heavy lift for Anet either. It's mostly copy pasta of current content with tweaking on both ends, the IB strikes to raid conversions and vice versa. Also, most modern MMOs have different difficulty settings, it's a glaring omission that the raid system was never adapted to the hyper casual nature of this MMO.

A much larger issue I want to briefly address is the fact that Anet is accumulating way too many disparate systems with all their PVE content experiments. I think they need a raid system (groups of 10) and a dungeons system (groups of 5) and all content of that size plays into that system. My above suggestions create this cohesive raid system. I would tweak DRMs and Dungeons to work with Fractals as part of a greater dungeon system (and they could even add dailies for each dungeon/raid type to encourage more participation). I feel like abandoned content that doesn't integrate with anything else won't age well. Perhaps dungeons should reward some fractal currencies if you have the masteries, same for DRMs. They could take the more popular content from the non-fractal modes and make fractals out of them.

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I agree with your statement that we have too many different instanced pve stuff...Don't get me wrong I don't want to get rid of it but I guess as a new player it can be overwhelming.

Now on topic.I really wish we would get more raids because they are nicely designed and really fun to play but I am afraid no matter what effort anyone puts in the majority of players won't be interested.I pugged all the way from start to legendary to a point I just do raids for fun and don't need any rewards.I even tried getting some complaining guildmates into it by doing training runs with some experienced players filling more critical roles and newcomers joining as dps mostly.The problem I encountered more times than I like to admit about my guildies ist the following:VG:All good, some ports, some pulls on seekers, some fails.Once most people got the mechanics down we got to one of the root problems. Healers dealing ~3% damage - fine.Some DPS dealing ~22% damage - fine.Some DPS dealing ~3% damage - panic!

Again guildmates so open conversation."You could bring your numbers up by doing xyz, maybe try swapping to another weapon/build/gearset."

"Why would I want to play like that if I don't like it?"

That is the problem.People want to raid but don't want to adapt to the encounter/group play style

And that is why all effort put in won't revive raids because the people who are down to it will get it done but the majority will just try and leave after not being successful with their approach.

I would still buy the expansion if all new stuff it gives is some balance shakeup and 3 new raids tho.

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@Fangoth.4503 said:It won't solve anything:-people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?as I say we have some ways - remove any timers from any boss, and reduce bosses hp per 50%

-people that will get it don't need the extra stats.oh, this is GuildWars2, most of than want shinny buff and god of Raids title.

Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.1yes, raid content looks very strange and should be reworked ofc.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.This, specially when this game raids are his own things like fractals, it's derived from raids, but it's cleary not the classics raids.

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That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it.I agree, even though I can only speak for myself. There's nothing that would make me interested in raids. I fully admit that I'm too much into a story-only mindset where I treat GW2 (and FF14 which I play too) to 99% as single player games, and this mindset will most likely never change. I respect the concept of raids and the different mentality you need for it, but the very idea to practice rotations over and over (or mechanics at which I even suck in the solo missions) is simply not my cup of tea. So I care enough about my own entertainment but have enough common sense to not step into content where I'd actively interfer with the fun of others (except of maybe public DRMs; mea culpa).For reference, I had a hard time opening up to FF14's system of putting story behind dungeons and trials (glorified boss battles with early-on 3 others and currently 7 other players), no matter how easy they are.

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@"Xerac.1542" said:"Why would I want to play like that if I don't like it?"

That is the problem.People want to raid but don't want to adapt to the encounter/group play styleyeah that's why i abandonned the idea of running with their guild and won't recommand it

@lare.5129 said:

@Fangoth.4503 said:It won't solve anything:-people cry they can't raid so how they gonna get 2k LI?as I say we have some ways - remove any timers from any boss, and reduce bosses hp per 50%So they phase every 3sec? no thanks

-people that will get it don't need the extra stats.oh, this is GuildWars2, most of than want shinny buff and god of Raids title.yeah title and AP should be removed from raid imo, it drag people in for the wrong reasons

Having main content being personal story to feed casual gameplay with here and there a new raid/fract/dungeon/PvP map/wvw map (or whatever PvP/wvw player likes) to keep more committed players around is fine.1yes, raid content looks very strange and should be reworked ofc.Raid are fine, boss lack a bit of hp as DPS increased a lot (mainly due to repeating the same boss over and over rather than having a new wing) but other than that its ok.

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@Mahou.3924 said:

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it.I agree, even though I can only speak for myself. There's nothing that would make me interested in raids. I fully admit that I'm too much into a story-only mindset where I treat GW2 (and FF14 which I play too) to 99% as single player games, and this mindset will most likely never change. I respect the concept of raids and the different mentality you need for it, but the very idea to practice rotations over and over (or mechanics at which I even suck in the solo missions) is simply not my cup of tea. So I care enough about my own entertainment but have enough common sense to not step into content where I'd actively interfer with the fun of others (except of maybe public DRMs; mea culpa).For reference, I had a hard time opening up to FF14's system of putting story behind dungeons and trials (glorified boss battles with early-on 3 others and currently 7 other players), no matter how easy they are.

I think this is false, plenty of people are willing to do 10+ man content, even build up roles for it, strikes prove that. The overhead is the problem, you're really only effective in statics and everything about this game outside of raids was supposed to not be like traditional MMOs that required them. I think if people could be confident the groups they're bringing could do it, they would and my new suggestion helps create that bridge from PuG players to being able to raid.

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@"Firebeard.1746" said:I think this is false, plenty of people are willing to do 10+ man content, even build up roles for it, strikes prove that.Notice, that at this point most of the players that do strikes are the same players that do raids. This is even more true in the more difficult strikes (Voice and Boneskinner), which are, from the point of view of most players, completely indistinguishable from raids.

The overhead is the problem, you're really only effective in statics and everything about this game outside of raids was supposed to not be like traditional MMOs that required them. I think if people could be confident the groups they're bringing could do it, they would and my new suggestion helps create that bridge from PuG players to being able to raid.As i pointed out, strikes failed too, for exactly that reason - even if the earlier strikes are much easier, their general design is the same as raid one. There's a reason why "public" groups for those failed very fast - they could not guarantee a working group composition. Which may not have been important for shiverpeaks (due to how easy it is), but started to become an issue in anything above that. And the moment you start needing certain roles, and certain levels of competence with said roles, you're back to the original point that makes raids unapproachable to the majority.

(That's, of course, only about the single boss battle strikes. Forging Steel is something completely different - it's more of a dungeon instance, and designed in such a way that practically all group compositions can do it.)

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One big gate that's keeping people from raiding is the false perception that raids are harder than they truly are. And Kitty's not speaking about possible new raiders who are hesitating due to difficulty but about people who insist on metametameta though good portion of raid community probably doesn't even know how meta works. Let alone what meta even means. Big problem is, as Kitty's ranted about for years now, that big majority of raiders go for "max dps comp" they're taught since "high dps means no mechs". But many raiders overestimate their skills, eat mechs they can't afford and due to low support 'cause metametameta, the heals aren' t up to cover for their mistakes. It's actually very rare for any squad to hit enrage at most bosses so bringing a powerful healer to cover for druid (when it comes to sheer healing power, druid is half a healer and thus squads typically have 1,5 healers or less) would actually increase the chances of scoring a kill drastically. Heal scrapper, renegade, ele, mace healbrand and heal scourge are such healers, in the order of strongest to weakest. Esp. Heal scrapper's ridiculous amount of heals, utility and remote resses and scourge's barrier and resses and might would make many of the easier bosses(W1-4) pretty much 95% certain kills even with worse squads. There's also bunch of dps builds with pseudo-immortality for minor dps cost, like power ps berserker (insane self-heals due to Mending Might), power renegade, power scrapper (most OP build), condi Tormenting rune mirage, Condi tormenting renegade,Power IP Staff Mastery staff DD etc. Simple builds like shortbow soulbeast, kitless holo and power assassin+dwarf renegade would also lower the entry threshold by eliminating need to learn complex rotations.

Tbh, if people started using some of the builds Kitty mentioned, the chance of successful kills would increase a ton

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@"Firebeard.1746" said:2) People in GW2 at large are used to pugging, even if they enjoy group content. This goes for fractals, dungeons DRMs. I rarely run with guildies and guildies rarely ping. I usually do a scheduled activity with my guild of a different sort if anything at all.

It's not pugging that people in GW2 are after. It's leeching. The reason Raids have lower participation than other parts of the game is because it's much harder to leech in them, because in order to do so you must take advantage of other people. In the open world, barely enough people deal with mechanics, they'd rather stand still and afk auto attack (go see Shatterer for example). Or when a meta event has multiple lanes, the majority picks the easiest one, ignoring those that require some actual brain power (Octovine or Chak Gerent are great examples). Or in other cases wait for a burn phase, go dps to get their participation and then go afk waiting for their rewards (Tequatl is a prime example). After all, most mechanics are removed during burn phases.

This leeching is what creates the meme of "you want to press 1 and F on your keyboard" and "easy open world". If everyone in meta events did that, then no meta event would succeed. Fortunately, some players are actually playing the content, doing the mechanics, and earning rewards for everyone else.

When a game trains its players to leech and earn the same rewards as someone actively playing the content, you get into this situation. I mean, players are even leeching in PUBLIC DRMs, which are really really easy (without CMs). How to teach players not to leech is gonna be very difficult, especially after years of encouraging it by design, but it's the only possible way to increase participation in instanced content. Because leeching there is usually harder.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

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Been playing the game since launch and only started raiding back in Feb. The biggest obstacle for me to get into raiding is not knowing where to look. LFG is filled with sellers. It wasn't until I found out about RA did I start raiding. I've completed w1-3 but still don't feel confident enough to start my own group. It would be nice if the raiding guilds advertised somewhere

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)
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