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4/6 PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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I have to say so far this has been necro wars. 2-3 necros per game (2 core 1 Scourge). Rezzing each other instantly, fearing everyone off the point. The game is totally bonkers atm. Necro is clearly advantaged by the recent power creep shaves. Even Mender removal made them strong.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi everyone,4/6 Changes to ScourgeFeed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first.-The Systems Team

This must be sarcasm. There isn't much of scourge left to see how it plays out in ranked. I really doubt you will see it either in the better tournament teams.

Edit: The minion master BOT build you preserved ...

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The game has to be fun in the first place! With removing more and more Amulets from the game, we get more balance and very boring/limited playstyle options. If i really want a 100% balance game i would play chess! Why don't you remove certain Amulets from Ranked PvP only and leave them alone in unranked PvP? It's already stupid enough that we can't play PvP with our own gear with our own stats.

Or just copy some rules form World of Warcraft PvP system, for god sake: casual Pvp in WoW you can play whatewer build you want with whatever gear you can get. No one cares if you play a tank, healer, ranged, or melee dps. Hardcore PvP (ranked Arenas) you have additional rules, for example healing reduction or dampening: "Dampening is a stacking debuff applied to all players in the Arena every 10 seconds. Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end in a draw." Can't you just copy paste something similar instead of going lazy mode and removing Amulets all over again?

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@Sifu.9745 said:The game has to be fun in the first place! With removing more and more Amulets from the game, we get more balance and very boring/limited playstyle options. If i really want a 100% balance game i would play chess!sad true. Welcome in my signature club.

Why don't you remove certain Amulets from Ranked PvP only and leave them alone in unranked PvP?keep 2 branches? oh, no, this is additional work fro developers.

Or just copy some rules form World of Warcraft PvP systempeople who like wow pvp system - let them play pvp in wow.

Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end ..the target of spvp - is hold the point. ONLY hold the point. In wow arena - kill someone. Do you see so heal dampening is a stacking debuff in Arathi Basin?? no? so yours example is not fair.

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@"Sifu.9745" said:"Dampening is a stacking debuff applied to all players in the Arena every 10 seconds. Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end in a draw."

Dampening in WoW works only in ARENA DEATHMATCH. In battlegrounds there is no Dampening. The PvP in GW2 is capture and hold so such mechanic does not work for this game mode.

Also the dampening in WoW was introduced because of the slow paced combat, so if every team in a deathmatch perform everything perfectly no team can win , because nobody can kill nobody , thats why this change was introduced so the teams will eventually kill someone and win the game.

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I think it's safe to say that we've come far enough with nerfs. Everything has been brought down so far that +1000 healing power was enough to break builds. That alone says a lot about the state of balance.

The nerf enthusiasts have had their fun, and we've seen where that philosophy has led us. It's given us a divided community, record low population numbers, and a boring, stale meta.

Enough reductions, removals, shaves, whatever you want to call em, lets finally address problems that have been laid out since day 1 of the feb patch.

Underperformers need some love.

For supports, some notable underperformers include:

Scrapper, Druid, Staff ele, Ventari

For Dps builds, notable underperformers include:

Ele (Core, Weaver and tempest), Core Engi, Warrior (they don't want to be forced into heal builds), Guardian (Symbol nerf hit a LOT more than just symbol brand. Mesmer in general.

Boons... These 1 second long durations just make them feel unimpactful and spammy. These need to be brought up enough to at least feel noticable.

Boon Corrupts and Boon removal should be emphasized more heavily in the classes that have it as a counter to boon spam. Introduce checks and balances to powerful mechanics instead of simply REMOVING said mechanic. That is how you create a meta that is capable of adapting on it's own due to player innovation rather than dev intervention.

Finally, lets rework these 300 second cooldown traits. It's been over a year now. It's like you guys forgot they were there?

Balance lately has been the equivalent of sweeping problems under the rug and hoping they don't create bigger problems in the future. If there's any silver lining in this patch it's that others have finally taken notice of the problem. (If only they heeded my warnings since day one when I warned of reverse power creep... as satisfying as it is to say "told you so" I would really just like my favorite game back. )

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@Swing.6439 said:Hi, where's druid if y'all are making changes to support builds? Or did you forget that you completely disgraced the class along with the other HoT specs because you desperately want people to buy PoF?

HoT has been included with PoF for years.

Anyway, that being said I do agree with some of the other commenters that Rev and Druid have been oddly neglected. If there are specific reasons for leaving them out of the support buffs, I'm sure we'd love to hear them. I love my Rev and I have lots of freedom to play her differently ... in PvE. I have just one viable option in sPvP.

But perhaps most importantly, thanks for communicating with us! A few people have already said that, but I just wanted to add how much I personally appreciate it. It's the #1 area for improvement for Arenanet, imo....well, unless you count getting bought by a publisher that ~~isn't sucking your blood dry ~~takes a more supportive role of the studio, obviously

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Please stop nerfing everything by removing mechanics entirely. I understand reducing duration or effectiveness (or occasionally increasing them,) but removing amulets, sigils, runes, etc. is just removing mechanics and limiting the types of builds people can play which only makes the game even less balanced. This is an RPG and people want to play their main in sPvP. If someone is attracted to a specific concept like throwing fireballs, but throwing fireballs ends up OP in sPvP (or WvW,) the answer is to balance fireball-throwing, not make people switch to dual swords (which will become the new unbalanced mechanic) and drive them away from sPvP. The fact is, the complaints about balance have nothing to do with balance because people can always just play whichever class or classes are OP at the moment and be "balanced," and the real problem is that takes away the RPG aspect. Balance mechanically has everything to do with aligning sPvP mechanics with open world mechanics, to which I say: just allow everything and let people sort it out.

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Proposed way to balance sPvP:

Get rid of the idea of having separate sPvP gear entirely, and just adjust the stats of the gear people are using to the max level (ascended for gear, superior for sigils/runes) for whatever they happen to be using. Allow people to use specific consumables like food and sharpening stones since a lot of those come with effects like life siphon or burning, but maybe have special mists food and items e are free (though if food and consumables are also stat-adjusted paying for them would be trivial since sPvP does pay gold and no one would use ascended food in sPvP.) If anything is unbalanced, change how effective it is, but don't remove it.

Why? Because "balance" means balancing the class fantasy of RPGs, not just having fair fights, because everyone could have a fair fight by playing the top most powerful classes anyways. On the other hand PvE and WvW are already balanced because everyone can use everything, not despite the fact that everyone can use everything.

A lot of the "meta" sPvP builds are actually not miles better than other builds, but people just think they are because they associate those builds with good players that can beat them. There are tons of top-tier builds out there that don't see much use, and as popular builds get nerfed, these builds will get discovered, become overwhelmingly popular, and the cycle will repeat indefinitely.

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@Marxx.5021 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi everyone,
4/6 Changes to Scourge
Feed from Corruption is the most notable omission from this list. It’s a very powerful trait, granting Scourge access to a wide range of boons in potentially large quantities to enhance both its defensive and offensive potential. We are considering reducing some of the stronger boon applications in a future update, but we want to see how the removal of Mender and the reductions to healing and barrier coefficients play out first.-The Systems Team

This must be sarcasm. There isn't much of scourge left to see how it plays out in ranked. I really doubt you will see it either in the better tournament teams.

Edit: The minion master BOT build you preserved ...

Ok, (avatar) scourge is still playable - at least in lower tiers (plat 1). I guess there will be another nerf comming. It would be better to lock class stacking imho.

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@"Sifu.9745" said:The game has to be fun in the first place! With removing more and more Amulets from the game, we get more balance and very boring/limited playstyle options. If i really want a 100% balance game i would play chess! Why don't you remove certain Amulets from Ranked PvP only and leave them alone in unranked PvP? It's already stupid enough that we can't play PvP with our own gear with our own stats.

Or just copy some rules form World of Warcraft PvP system, for god sake: casual Pvp in WoW you can play whatewer build you want with whatever gear you can get. No one cares if you play a tank, healer, ranged, or melee dps. Hardcore PvP (ranked Arenas) you have additional rules, for example healing reduction or dampening: "Dampening is a stacking debuff applied to all players in the Arena every 10 seconds. Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end in a draw." Can't you just copy paste something similar instead of going lazy mode and removing Amulets all over again?

"lazy mode" "you should copy other devs"

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@Albert.3574 said:ANET need creat solo rank i just keep lose my team all solo player fight double duo team = = so bad luck or delete duo so easylose 4 game enemy they all duo or double duo 1team . now win 1 same man duo now they at my side fight another solo teamkitten?

absolutely, anet are you taking notes?

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@Nihil.9817 said:

@"Sifu.9745" said:The game has to be fun in the first place! With removing more and more Amulets from the game, we get more balance and very boring/limited playstyle options. If i really want a 100% balance game i would play chess! Why don't you remove certain Amulets from Ranked PvP only and leave them alone in unranked PvP? It's already stupid enough that we can't play PvP with our own gear with our own stats.

Or just copy some rules form World of Warcraft PvP system, for god sake: casual Pvp in WoW you can play whatewer build you want with whatever gear you can get. No one cares if you play a tank, healer, ranged, or melee dps. Hardcore PvP (ranked Arenas) you have additional rules, for example healing reduction or dampening:
"Dampening is a stacking debuff applied to all players in the Arena every 10 seconds. Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end in a draw."
Can't you just copy paste something similar instead of going lazy mode and removing Amulets all over again?

"lazy mode" "you should copy other devs"

Removing more and more Amulets is lazy mode and totally unproductive. Do you really want to play PvP in GW2 2022 with only Berserker and Sinister Amulets left? I don't think so. Without Mender Amulet i can't find a way how to play my Elementalist any more. Is just way too squishy. Copying ideas from some other games is still better then removing Amulets. If Anet doesn't know how to make PvP a better experience they should copy some ideas from other games. Removing more and more Amuletes from the game is not the right way. Less builds, less way to play as you want to play. I don't mind if they remove some Amulets from Ranked arena, as long as they let Unranked untouched (Bring back ALL amulets in Unranked). We don't need that kind of "balance" in unranked PvP. They can also create some new PVP maps for 10 vs 10 or 15 vs 15 players, whitout Amulets, just bring your own gear and whatever stats you want.

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@Sifu.9745 said:

@Sifu.9745 said:The game has to be fun in the first place! With removing more and more Amulets from the game, we get more balance and very boring/limited playstyle options. If i really want a 100% balance game i would play chess! Why don't you remove certain Amulets from Ranked PvP only and leave them alone in unranked PvP? It's already stupid enough that we can't play PvP with our own gear with our own stats.

Or just copy some rules form World of Warcraft PvP system, for god sake: casual Pvp in WoW you can play whatewer build you want with whatever gear you can get. No one cares if you play a tank, healer, ranged, or melee dps. Hardcore PvP (ranked Arenas) you have additional rules, for example healing reduction or dampening:
"Dampening is a stacking debuff applied to all players in the Arena every 10 seconds. Each stack of Dampening reduces all healing and damage absorption by 1%. If neither team has won after 20 minutes, the Arena match will end in a draw."
Can't you just copy paste something similar instead of going lazy mode and removing Amulets all over again?

"lazy mode" "you should copy other devs"

Removing more and more Amulets is lazy mode and totally unproductive. Do you really want to play PvP in GW2 2022 with only Berserker and Sinister Amulets left? I don't think so. Without Mender Amulet i can't find a way how to play my Elementalist any more. Is just way too squishy. Copying ideas from some other games is still better then removing Amulets. If Anet doesn't know how to make PvP a better experience they should copy some ideas from other games. Removing more and more Amuletes from the game is not the right way. Less builds, less way to play as you want to play. I don't mind if they remove some Amulets from Ranked arena, as long as they let Unranked untouched (Bring back ALL amulets in Unranked). We don't need that kind of "balance" in unranked PvP. They can also create some new PVP maps for 10 vs 10 or 15 vs 15 players, whitout Amulets, just bring your own gear and whatever stats you want.

There is nothing wrong to copy ideas (no need to reinvent something if it is already invented). But dampening is not an idea which would fit conquest mode, so it is not the right idea to copy.

Dampening is targeted for healing in a game which has dedicated healer roles and also it only works in Arena deathmatch not in battlegrounds.

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@"Sifu.9745"Rewith only Berserker and Sinister Amulets left? I don't think so. Without Mender Amulet i can't find a way how to play my Elementalist any more. Is just way too squishy. Copying ideas from some other games is still better then removing Amulets. If Anet doesn't know how to make PvP a better experience they should copy some ideas from other games. Removing more and more Amuletes from the game is not the right way. Less builds, less way to play as you want to play. I don't mind if they remove some Amulets from Ranked arena, as long as they let Unranked untouched (Bring back ALL amulets in Unranked). We don't need that kind of "balance" in unranked PvP. They can also create some new PVP maps for 10 vs 10 or 15 vs 15 players, whitout Amulets, just bring your own gear and whatever stats you want.

we need more self sustain guys, imagine if no one died during a match, that would be really fun and cool because more builds, because unranked doesnt need that balance, they should have 2 different ques with completely different balance, that would be really cool for when you want to practice in unranked and have 2 metas going, or just a complete mess of what to expect, completely negating the reason why you would que for unranked in the first place. bring back the amuletES anet rn >:( if they keep doing this they will have no more amulets i heard a streamer once and he said something and im just regurgitating it in a slightly less coherent manner, amuletes.

the solution to this issue is to narrow down things in each kit and hack away at it until its unusable then slowly give back numbers to see when its at a good spot, but it takes a long time, by the time that would happen the expiation would probably drop and be reverted back because it has toxic interactions with the elite specs, the reasoning is solid enough, who wants to fight on a side node for the entire game and have it be a stalemate that isnt fun, who would use those besides the self healing builds that refuse to die. its annoying to rotate into a node and find out that you cannot kill that thing, not because of them out playing you or because they counter you, just because they are wearing an amulet designed around the idea that youre going to heal other people and they are self healing instead, and they heal all of the damage you deal, thats fun and engaging gameplay, i love dealing damage to a static target that refuses to die, thats why i que for UNRANKED instead of joining a raid group, is to kill a raid boss that deals no damage and dosent really have any mechanics besides the fact that it doesnt die (kinda like raid training in general eh?). i would like for the game to not be balanced at all because competitive games arent fun, like who wants balance anyways so overrated, i think anet should just cave in and listen to the forums or reddit or whatever and see how bad the game gets before it is in an unplayable state, its not like pvp would take a hit i think the core combat is fun enough, like in the balance patches we could rp as if we were unwilling passengers on a wild ride that never ends.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

We’ve also considered the possibility that moving support builds from Mender to Avatar amulet could end up making them too squishy due to the reduction in self-healing. This is something that we’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but we’re prepared to make further adjustments as necessary to find the right balance between squishiness and support power. This could involve buffs to more selfish survivability skills, or possibly further increasing outgoing support potential to justify the level of vulnerability.

As someone who wants to play a non scourge support, these last 2 weeks have been awful regardless of match outcome. Not saying that scourge are perfect, but they have more synergy with the typical comps I'm seeing as an average player. A buff to "selfish survivability skills" isn't going to change anything.

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  • 6 months later...
On 3/29/2021 at 10:21 PM, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Looking Ahead (...)

We’ve also considered the possibility that moving support builds from Mender to Avatar amulet could end up making them too squishy due to the reduction in self-healing. This is something that we’ll evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but we’re prepared to make further adjustments as necessary to find the right balance between squishiness and support power. This could involve buffs to more selfish survivability skills, or possibly further increasing outgoing support potential to justify the level of vulnerability.

That’s all we have for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in the mists!

-The Systems Team

 

It has been more than 5 seasons since then.

Do you intend to pick Tempest out of the trash tier any time soon?

 

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1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's fine as a higher dps roamer utility aura support tbh. It's just not material for a central support anymore.

High roaming DPS?

Tempest's DPS lies in multi-target AOEs. Or in other words: quantity over quality.

To get half decent single target DPS, you need to get so squishy you'll just wipe or loose support ability.

Aside from +1 it doesn't do much as a roamer.

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