[Study Results] Current Class Rankings for Roaming and 1v1s

[Junkpile.7439]

Thief is so broken in wvw too. They can just hang around in stealth with siege disabler. Disabling siege is most important job in wvw.

[saerni.2584]

I've been rebuilding a thief from scratch. Exotics. Some lower level trinkets. I just barely unlocked Warclaw.

I can still 1v2. It's a lot harder but anyone who says thief can't beat ranger 1v1 in most cases isn't playing the right build.

[mistsim.2748]

@saerni.2584 said:I've been rebuilding a thief from scratch. Exotics. Some lower level trinkets. I just barely unlocked Warclaw.

I can still 1v2. It's a lot harder but anyone who says thief can't beat ranger 1v1 in most cases isn't playing the right build.

I can crush the common Daredevil and Deadeye on my condi Soulbeast....if he decides to stick around. I pretty much farm these guys, if they feel like dueling. I poop condis and have unlimited sustain in a 1v1, sometimes a 1v2.

Thief will always be a +1'er even in WvW. There are way better attrition specs across multiple professions. A good thief is hugely valuable, but in a small gang context. For the record, I think an average thief can defeat an average power Soulbeast without too many issues. Personally, I feel the pew pew Soulbeast isnt anything special in a 1v1, but also excels as a +1er.

[Virdo.1540]

imo necro cant be placed into one spot.

Reaper , Scourge and core necro cant be compared to each in any way.

Condi core Necro definetely deserves a 3.7 in both.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Like maybe if we're talking a straight up arena style 1v1 where running away isn't an option, then yea. Thief would arguably not be number 1 (it'd still be high up there).

It wouldnt be high up. If you cant run away at all, itd be 7th, maybe 8th. There is a reason why in PvPs 2v2 and 3v3 gamemodes thief is entirely unplayable.

Nah, it'd still be high up. The thing is, in a 1v1 the thief can play around as long as it needs to. In 2v2/3v3, and similarly with SPvP, a thief cannot do that. The thief has teammates. The thief has a timer to compete with. These are things that actually severely hinder one of the core strengths of a thief, that being controlling the engagement.

If we're talking about a straight up, 1v1. No timers. No interference. No running away. The thief has a lot that they can do to control the fight & eventually get it into their favor against every class in the game. And I do mean every class in the game.

Sure, you can beat a thief on a number of classes. But it's not about whether thief is beatable or not. It's about whether it's good at 1v1s. And honestly, it is.

I also find bringing up 2v2/3v3 to be wholly irrelevant. I mean, any class with some good AoE damage is going to do stupid well in 2v2/3v3 arena. AoE's that are a lot weaker in a small scale open world fight.

[UNOwen.7132]

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Like maybe if we're talking a straight up arena style 1v1 where running away isn't an option, then yea. Thief would arguably not be number 1 (it'd still be high up there).

It wouldnt be high up. If you cant run away at all, itd be 7th, maybe 8th. There is a reason why in PvPs 2v2 and 3v3 gamemodes thief is entirely unplayable.

Nah, it'd still be high up. The thing is, in a 1v1 the thief can play around as long as it needs to. In 2v2/3v3, and similarly with SPvP, a thief cannot do that. The thief has teammates. The thief has a timer to compete with. These are things that actually severely hinder one of the core strengths of a thief, that being controlling the engagement.

We're talking without running away here. What youre referring to is running away.

If we're talking about a straight up, 1v1. No timers. No interference. No running away. The thief has a lot that they can do to control the fight & eventually get it into their favor against every class in the game. And I do mean every class in the game.

No, they have nothing. The enemy can just grind down their defenses then kill them. They have nothing they can do to actually control the fight, and they can only get a favourable position against 2 classes.

Sure, you can beat a thief on a number of classes. But it's not about whether thief is beatable or not. It's about whether it's good at 1v1s. And honestly, it is.

Its not. Again, we also had 1v1 PvP events, and thief ate dirt in every one.

I also find bringing up 2v2/3v3 to be wholly irrelevant. I mean, any class with some good AoE damage is going to do stupid well in 2v2/3v3 arena. AoE's that are a lot weaker in a small scale open world fight.

There are good single-target classes in 2v2/3v3 as well. Thieves issue isnt that. Thieves issue is that it cant run away. So it just dies.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Like maybe if we're talking a straight up arena style 1v1 where running away isn't an option, then yea. Thief would arguably not be number 1 (it'd still be high up there).

It wouldnt be high up. If you cant run away at all, itd be 7th, maybe 8th. There is a reason why in PvPs 2v2 and 3v3 gamemodes thief is entirely unplayable.

Nah, it'd still be high up. The thing is, in a 1v1 the thief can play around as long as it needs to. In 2v2/3v3, and similarly with SPvP, a thief cannot do that. The thief has teammates. The thief has a timer to compete with. These are things that actually severely hinder one of the core strengths of a thief, that being controlling the engagement.

We're talking

without

running away here. What youre referring to is running away.

Staying in combat, in or out of stealth, is not running away.

If we're talking about a straight up, 1v1. No timers. No interference. No running away. The thief has a lot that they can do to control the fight & eventually get it into their favor against every class in the game. And I do mean every class in the game.

No, they have nothing. The enemy can just grind down their defenses then kill them. They have nothing they can do to actually control the fight, and they can only get a favourable position against 2 classes.

This is just silly. "The enemy can grind down their defenses". So can they.

Sure, you can beat a thief on a number of classes. But it's not about whether thief is beatable or not. It's about whether it's good at 1v1s. And honestly, it is.

Its not. Again, we also had 1v1 PvP events, and thief ate dirt in every one.

Yeah, that's actually fair. I can't find post PoF stats, but post HoT stats don't look good. Meh.

[reddie.5861]

the thing is WvW design makes thief good. but in reality a thief isnt that good.i mean put thief in a cage with limited space and all of sudden hes off his nr1 spot probably all the way down to nearly last place ;).

tbh i personally dont care i have my thief catching dust nowdays. but only thing that makes a thief good in 1v1 90% of the time is a load of patience.its not the dmg its not the stealth (well maybe) its simply the patience u just pick on ur enemy and wait for him to use certain skills and then when he did and u know he has nothing left u start wacking harder.

but then whats a 1v1? for me the 1v1 in world vs world arent really 1v1 tbh.. but then again this game isnt really made for 1v1 either so who cares.but i dont think thief is nr1 at anything its just the world that has given the thief advantage due to stealth and mobility, mobility alone nowadays wont cut it as many classes have pretty good leaps and or ports aswell nowadays.

[Dawdler.8521]

@reddie.5861 said:the thing is WvW design makes thief good. but in reality a thief isnt that good.i mean put thief in a cage with limited space and all of sudden hes off his nr1 spot probably all the way down to nearly last place ;).

tbh i personally dont care i have my thief catching dust nowdays. but only thing that makes a thief good in 1v1 90% of the time is a load of patience.its not the dmg its not the stealth (well maybe) its simply the patience u just pick on ur enemy and wait for him to use certain skills and then when he did and u know he has nothing left u start wacking harder.

but then whats a 1v1? for me the 1v1 in world vs world arent really 1v1 tbh.. but then again this game isnt really made for 1v1 either so who cares.but i dont think thief is nr1 at anything its just the world that has given the thief advantage due to stealth and mobility, mobility alone nowadays wont cut it as many classes have pretty good leaps and or ports aswell nowadays.So then a thief in WvW doing a 1v1 must be a unreal experience.

It makes sense, most thieves on the forum doesnt seem to live in reality.

[UNOwen.7132]

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TheOneWhoSighs.7513 said:Like maybe if we're talking a straight up arena style 1v1 where running away isn't an option, then yea. Thief would arguably not be number 1 (it'd still be high up there).

It wouldnt be high up. If you cant run away at all, itd be 7th, maybe 8th. There is a reason why in PvPs 2v2 and 3v3 gamemodes thief is entirely unplayable.

Nah, it'd still be high up. The thing is, in a 1v1 the thief can play around as long as it needs to. In 2v2/3v3, and similarly with SPvP, a thief cannot do that. The thief has teammates. The thief has a timer to compete with. These are things that actually severely hinder one of the core strengths of a thief, that being controlling the engagement.

We're talking

without

running away here. What youre referring to is running away.

Staying in combat, in or out of stealth, is not running away.

Sure, but if thief does that they die.

If we're talking about a straight up, 1v1. No timers. No interference. No running away. The thief has a lot that they can do to control the fight & eventually get it into their favor against every class in the game. And I do mean every class in the game.

No, they have nothing. The enemy can just grind down their defenses then kill them. They have nothing they can do to actually control the fight, and they can only get a favourable position against 2 classes.

This is just silly. "The enemy can grind down their defenses". So can they.

They precisely can't, thats the issue. Thief lacks both the offense and defense to do so. They run out of defense long before their enemy does, and then they get killed. There is a reason thieves run away so much.

Sure, you can beat a thief on a number of classes. But it's not about whether thief is beatable or not. It's about whether it's good at 1v1s. And honestly, it is.

Its not. Again, we also had 1v1 PvP events, and thief ate dirt in every one.

Yeah, that's actually fair. I can't find post PoF stats, but post HoT stats don't look good. Meh.

Post PoF dont look any better. Last time we had one I think almost all thieves got knocked out in the first round.

[saerni.2584]

@mistsim.2748 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I've been rebuilding a thief from scratch. Exotics. Some lower level trinkets. I just barely unlocked Warclaw.

I can still 1v2. It's a lot harder but anyone who says thief can't beat ranger 1v1 in most cases isn't playing the right build.

I can crush the common Daredevil and Deadeye on my condi Soulbeast....if he decides to stick around. I pretty much farm these guys, if they feel like dueling. I poop condis and have unlimited sustain in a 1v1, sometimes a 1v2.

Thief will always be a +1'er even in WvW. There are way better attrition specs across multiple professions. A good thief is hugely valuable, but in a small gang context. For the record, I think an average thief can defeat an average power Soulbeast without too many issues. Personally, I feel the pew pew Soulbeast isnt anything special in a 1v1, but also excels as a +1er.

Anecdotally, I actually fought a couple of these (well one condi SB and one Druid) today. Both died fairly easily. Not sure about the sustain of these kinds of builds but people need to learn to hit their sustain abilities every now and again.

[Kovu.7560]

You can argue build specific weaknesses if you want but at the end of the day thieves and rangers have plenty of tools to deal with each other. Both are extremely versatile. Neither hard counters the other if (as pointed out above) the players invest in some sustain-oriented traits or utilities. Both professions have plenty of defensive options while still outputting high single target damage.I'd give the edge to ranger in a 1v1, on average, but its hardly a blowout. Maybe 55/45. Thieves also perform better overall against more builds than ranger across the other professions from my experience.

~ Kovu

[Jables.4659]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:03 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

My critiques are all still valid. Since the reasoning given does not reflect my experiences roaming as a warrior.

 

How much play-time do you have on warrior?  I tend towards the belief that Core Mesmer is still one of the better specs for WvW solo roaming, but I also have around 12k hours of playtime on Mesmer (with 2/3 or more of it spent solo and small group roaming) which definitely screws with my perception.  Even with all the nerfs, occasional 1v4s are winnable and successful 1v3s aren't all that uncommon. The majority of 1v2s and 1v1s feel like gimme fights.  That being said, in the rare event of coming across a very skilled player who knows their class inside and out and that class happens to be something like Holosmith, Daredevil, Power-DH, or even Mage-Bane Spellbreaker (which is a fairly hard counter to the stealth reliance of Core Mesmer) I quickly realize why so many players say that Mesmer is unplayable.  Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view), players of that caliber are incredibly rare in WvW these days, so its very possible that your experience/skill-level with warrior is skewing your perception of the class.

 

On an unrelated note, I find it kind of hilarious that my core group of roaming buddies each main one of the four bottom tier roaming classes according to this list. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Jables.4659
Grammar Mistake

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

 

How much play-time do you have on warrior?  I tend towards the belief that Core Mesmer is still one of the better specs for WvW solo roaming, but I also have around 12k hours of playtime on Mesmer (with 2/3 or more of it spent solo and small group roaming) which definitely screws with my perception.  Even with all the nerfs, occasional 1v4s are winnable and successful 1v3s aren't all that uncommon. The majority of 1v2s and 1v1s feel like gimme fights.  That being said, in the rare event of coming across a very skilled player who knows their class inside and out and that class happens to be something like Holosmith, Daredevil, Power-DH, or even Mage-Bane Spellbreaker (which is a fairly hard counter to the stealth reliance of Core Mesmer) I quickly realize why so many players say that Mesmer is unplayable.  Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view), players of that caliber are incredibly rare in WvW these days, so its very possible that your experience/skill-level with warrior is skewing your perception of the class.

 

On an unrelated note, I find it kind of hilarious that my core group of roaming buddies each main one of the four bottom tier roaming classes according to this list. 

Thank you for the thread necro. I’ve played warrior since launch with a couple years off in the middle due to life events. I play almost exclusively my warrior, but branch out here and there. Not sure why you are quoting me at this point.

 

Mesmer is a stronger spec than people realize I think, and this study seems to favor gank tier classes rather than roaming imho.