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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly
have forgotten about them
. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply
didn't care
.

Oh wow. the feelings of those poor players got hurt because they didn't get a new skin. Let me get this, Arenanet adding Legendary Armor in Raids exclusively, made some players feel
forgotten
or that the developers
don't care about them
. Because of a skin (and a so called gear tier that they won't use anyway)Now I wonder how players that get zero content for literal years would feel. You know, ANY content, something playable, something to DO, not a skin. And someone dares to say they feel neglected and abandoned because they didn't get legendary armor. Roll eyes.Sure, the players that get literal zero content for years have every right to feel neglected as well. Being neglected is not fun. So, now all of us can feel the same way. I'm sure that it makes the game overall better [/sarcasm]But seriously, two wrongs don't make a right.

Honestly, I'd feel really good if I was getting tons of content, new things to work towards, the entire game centered around me, even if ONE thing was out of my reach. You said, Anet "forgotten" about them, even though they kept giving them new content every couple of months, that's a weird way to be "forgotten" but I guess we have a very different definition for words like "forgotten", "neglected" and "abandoned".

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:That Anet devs when introducing the armor, seemingly
have forgotten about them
. Or, worse, it's not that they've forgotten - they simply
didn't care
.

Oh wow. the feelings of those poor players got hurt because they didn't get a new skin. Let me get this, Arenanet adding Legendary Armor in Raids exclusively, made some players feel
forgotten
or that the developers
don't care about them
. Because of a skin (and a so called gear tier that they won't use anyway)Now I wonder how players that get zero content for literal years would feel. You know, ANY content, something playable, something to DO, not a skin. And someone dares to say they feel neglected and abandoned because they didn't get legendary armor. Roll eyes.Sure, the players that get literal zero content for years have every right to feel neglected as well. Being neglected is not fun. So, now all of us can feel the same way. I'm sure that it makes the game overall better [/sarcasm]But seriously, two wrongs don't make a right.

Honestly, I'd feel really good if I was getting tons of content, new things to work towards, the entire game centered around me, even if ONE thing was out of my reach. You said, Anet "forgotten" about them, even though they kept giving them new content every couple of months, that's a weird way to be "forgotten" but I guess we have a very different definition for words like "forgotten", "neglected" and "abandoned".

667 days since the last raid release :PEPEHANDS:

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@Guille.7985 said:They sell me the carry for 300 gold dhuum cm and 150 for the achievement of the 5 min of the grent statues, is that fair?As long as you decide not to do it yourself and agree upon the price it is absolutely fair.If you don't believe it to be a fair price it is simply incumbent upon yourself to not pay it.

Considering the time and expertise the players in question have put in to learn the encounter and gear up I don't think 300g is at all unreasonable. Assuming the other 9 people are carrying and split the gold equally it actually seems like pretty fair compensation to carry someone unwilling to learn to do so themselves.

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I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.Assuming the loss of SPvP population has anything to do with it.

I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days......oh wait.

(yeah, SPvP is in far worse state, but there are many very good reasons for that that have absolutely nothing to do with the reward system. And some that do have a lot to do with the reward system, but for completely different reasons than you might think)

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for that content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

Tbh the other legendary ring was also added later. The stronger point is that you didn't actually have to farm the PoF raids for the ring with the transition rate.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for
that
content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

I'm not the one suggesting a nearly dead game modes reward system is the solution here.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

...how is asking this question relevant other than being an attempt at some snarky backhanded comment? You gave your "idea" as an argument to grow population. pvp didn't grow in population. Current population of raids is irrelevant, what's relevant is that your idea is shown to not help, right?

  • Confused 1
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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I stated this many years ago, take the approach of how PvP was implemented. Give easy mode access to the Armor, however make it take way longer. Such as you get a 1/4 piece of the LI or whatever and have it time gated.

Much like PvP Armor, you can lose every match and still obtain the Armor except it takes eons. This forces people to look at normal mode as a faster route to the Armor much like winning matches in PvP helps you get the PvP Armor faster.

Giving that addition, I would not be surprised if the community would grow just with that initiative.

Just 1 question:"how is the pvp population these days?"

I think that should cover how well your suggestion worked for pvp and how well it would work for pve.

I guess I could ask you the same question with Raids...

...how is asking this question relevant other than being an attempt at some snarky backhanded comment? You gave your "idea" as an argument to grow population. pvp didn't grow in population. Current population of raids is irrelevant, what's relevant is that your idea is shown to not help, right?

Made a suggestion.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for
that
content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

You are also considering the ease of acquisition of ascended trinkets here versus legendary trinkets (pretty much THE most expensive upgrade to get) versus the cost and ease of ascended armor to legendary armor (pretty much THE cheapest upgrade to get)?

Legendary items don't exist in a vacume and legendary trinkets are very low on the list of goals for many players as such it seems reasonable to assume that their appeal as "carrot" is minimal ehile armor had a far more significant effect.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Legendary items don't exist in a vacume and legendary trinkets are very low on the list of goals for many players as such it seems reasonable to assume that their appeal as "carrot" is minimal ehile armor had a far more significant effect.That's fair point when comparing relative draw of HoT and PoF wing rewards. @maddoctor.2738 however was suggesting that PoF raid popularity got negatively influenced by alternate method of acquisition for legendary ring. Which is not very likely considering when said alternative got introduced.

Also, if we assume that it was the reward difference between HoT and PoF raids (and not sometjing else) that was so important it caused downfall of PoF wings, then a question arises, whether first wings were indeed as popular as some raiders claim, or was it all due to legendary armor.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:I could as well ask you how well the reward system present in raids worked out for
that
content. I mean, with them being super-popular and well supported by devs these days...

Well, it's not like the reward system for all Raids is universal. But to stay on the argument of how a reward system helps or not, the reward system in POF Raids indeed didn't help the content at all, as the much higher popularity of HOT Raids shows, and their much faster development. So I guess having a unique legendary item (legendary armor) in Raids did help HOT Raids. Meanwhile, there are different avenues of acquiring a legendary Ring, and their participation/popularity is much lower.Now, of course they added different ways of acquiring legendary armor, later on, when Raid popularity also went down. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.Correct me if i'm wrong, but the alternatives to legendary armor were added even before raid ring was first mentioned (few months after Envoy set was actually released, and few months before Wing 5 release), and Conflux - the only alternative to Coalescence, was added half a year after last raid wing release, and after devs already mentioned they can't justify making more wings.

PVP Legendary Armor was added on August 2017. The Perfected Envoy armor was fully available since May 2017, so there was a delay of 3 months between the full release of Envoy armor and the introduction of an alternative.

Although Conflux was added -later-, we still got Aurora and Vision, legendary trinkets available outside Raiding, one of them before POF Raids started. By the way Conflux is not an alternative to Coalescence, because you still need multiple Rings. But the alternative in this part was the availability of multiple Legendary trinkets, outside of Raiding.

As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

Well you asked how the reward system present in Raids worked out for them. They changed that reward system with POF Raids significantly and saying that it didn't affect the popularity of POF Raids is rather odd to me. HOT Raids had a Legendary Armor, something unique at the time, while POF Raids had a trinket, which had already availability outside raiding. Plus it was a trinket. By the time Coalescence became available we already had legendary trinkets available outside of Raids, what if it wasn't a ring specifically?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:PVP Legendary Armor was added on August 2017. The Perfected Envoy armor was fully available since May 2017, so there was a delay of 3 months between the full release of Envoy armor and the introduction of an alternative.

Although Conflux was added -later-, we still got Aurora and Vision, legendary trinkets available outside Raiding, one of them before POF Raids started.Since they do not compete for the slot, it doesn't matter. An amulet is not a replacement for ring. Just as weapons are not replacements, alternative nor competition for armor.

By the way Conflux is not an alternative to Coalescence, because you still need multiple Rings.You can use Conflux alongside Slumbering Conflux. Still doesn't matter, as it got released half a year after wing 7, when the direction the raids were going was already set.

But the alternative in this part was the availability of multiple Legendary trinkets, outside of Raiding.That's not an alternative. They do not replace but complement each other.

As such, i don't see how those alternative options could have significantly influenced raid unpopularity in any way. And especially how the WvW ring could have influenced something that happened loooong before it was introduced

Well you asked how the reward system present in Raids worked out for them. They changed that reward system with POF Raids significantly and saying that it didn't affect the popularity of POF Raids is rather odd to me.That's not what you said. You specifically brought up that PoF ring had an alternative. Which appeared too late to have an impact.

HOT Raids had a Legendary Armor, something unique at the time, while POF Raids had a trinket, which had already availability outside raiding.As i mentioned, there was
no
other ring. And one trinket is no more a replacement for another different type of trinket as weapon or backpack is a replacement for armor.

Plus it was a trinket. By the time Coalescence became available we already had legendary trinkets available outside of Raids, what if it wasn't a ring specifically?You might as well say that by the time legendary armor became available, we've already had multiple other legendaries, what if they were weapons and backpacks and not armor specifically.It doesn't work that way. People that had legendary weapons did not stop wanting legendary armor or backpack. People that had a backpack did not want a ring any less.

You might have had a point if you said what @Cyninja.2954 mentioned about ascended rings being very easy and cheap to acquire (which may make legendary rings less desirable in comparison). Or if you brought up the fact that HoT raids had a whole armor set, but PoF ones had only one trinket. But that's not what you said. You started speaking about how the existence of alternatives was what was so damaging, possibly because that was the point you wanted to argue with (and those two arguments i just mentioned were pretty much irrelevant in that discussion). Unfortunately, you picked very wrong example for that, one that doesn't show anything like that at all.

Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

So, perhaps devs were justified in never following on their initial promises, which they've made based on initial raid numbers, which at that point might have believed represented a genuine interest in the mode itself.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place. Most casual player find the fun in rewards but hardcore players are more focused in the thrills of quality contents.

Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.

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@Vilin.8056 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set
was
definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place.That's part of the point, isn't it? Whether the legendary armor was good enough of a reward to bring in players that were
not
interested in the content (and how many of those). So, how many people ended up playing raids that were
not
"hardcore players focusing on hardcore content".

Notice, by the way, that both answer to my "if" question have consequences. If the reward system had significant impact on player population in raids, then the original participation numbers cannot be really used as arguments for raid popularity (because we can't be sure then what part of those numbers was due to the rewards popularity and was not tied to the content itself). If the rewards however had no visible impact on participation numbers at all, then we can't claim that having alternate methods of acquisition for those would have been a bad idea.

Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Since they do not compete for the slot, it doesn't matter.

Actually it does matter, because they are all trinkets and the addition of Vision before POF Raids even launched was a clear indicator of the future. And to no surprise, they kept adding legendary trinkets outside of raiding. Since they are all trinkets it doesn't matter. They started releasing legendary trinkets before Raids got their own trinket, this did set a precedent about future legendaries. IT's not like they didn't release ANY legendary trinket, they released multiple ones before they got to that ring. Why would anyone expect to release a Ring first and then others? But the damage was still done. You'd have a point if there were no legendary trinkets released until we got the Ring. But that's not what happened. It wasn't the Raid Ring that postponed the release of other legendary Rings, but the release of other legendary trinkets.

which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set was definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring

Yes Armor set is much more desirable reward than a single legendary trinket

it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

Isn't that why players play in the Open World meta events where they can blindly get their rewards while not participating? Isn't that why Auric Basin and Istan used to be so popular but now they aren't as popular? You are telling me players go to Drizzlewood and Dragonfall "for the content" and if their rewards are nerfed (like with Auric Basin/ Istan) players would still go there because they love the content? Past "casual majority" activity tells us that they don't go to content they like, but content that provides the maximum rewards for the least effort. That's what the so called majority in this game is after, content to leech.

So your argument about inflated Raid popularity due to the legendary armor can be applied to the Open World as the primary (if not the only) reason the majority goes there to play. And the past is very clear indicator of that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Also, again. If the change of the reward system between HoT and PoF wings had so significant impact to be responsible for the significant drop of population between those two wings (which i am not saying it wasn't - whole armor set
was
definitely a way more desirable reward than a single ring), it just means that the popularity of HoT wings you often bring up was way overinflated due to the armor. That many players that went in there did it for the armor alone, and not for the content.

The armor has very little to do with it. Loot has never been the main focus for hardcore player to play hardcore contents in the first place.That's part of the point, isn't it? Whether the legendary armor was good enough of a reward to bring in players that were
not
interested in the content (and how many of those). So, how many people ended up playing raids that were
not
"hardcore players focusing on hardcore content".First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?

Notice, by the way, that both answer to my "if" question have consequences. If the reward system had significant impact on player population in raids, then the original participation numbers cannot be really used as arguments for raid popularity (because we can't be sure then what part of those numbers was due to the
rewards
popularity and was not tied to the content itself). If the rewards however had no visible impact on participation numbers at all, then we can't claim that having alternate methods of acquisition for those would have been a bad idea.And secondly your "IF" is no longer a relevant point because you did not account in declining player interest/population in this game as a whole. Anet has constantly been nerfing down difficulties in obtaining rewards throughout the years and all it resulted is nothing but a wrecked economy and lots of bored players who made more gold AFK farming than playing anything else. Why would Anet spend further resources just to repeat the same mistakes and further damages they made in open world onto instanced contents? At the same time invite more opportunities with BOTs into farming nerfed Raid like how they messed up PvP? (remember Diablo 2?)

Most PUG raid pattern tends to skip boss fights with unforgiving platforming elements. Which is the same reason why wing 1 Sabetha, wing 3 Xera (and before the introduction of Healbrand & Heal Scourge, Wing 2 Sloth) remain some of the least participated PUG raids today.

POF raids tends to include heavier jump puzzle elements than HOT raids, especially with Wing 5 made a major design flaws by introducing many sudden death mechanics that has very little to do with the boss battle itself, player interest slided as the result. By the time wing 7 simplefied its platforming in its first two bosses, the game's declining playerbase can no longer sustain squad based hardcore contents.Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.Even if it does the impact wouldn't have sustained, to sustain instanced content it needs a community who are willing repeat the content, make communication with other players and inspire each other in the process (which is unlikely to happen if the contents takes no effort to accomplish). This is what makes online co-ops more enticing than most open world single player games on the market. The least thing we need is another mute who only joins the group for a one time grab.
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@"Vilin.8056" said:First question you should ask, is why would a casual player base that has no interest in hardcore contents be the solution of saving hardcore contents in the first place?Well, if the hardcore community could save itself, it obviously would have done that already. There's no need to open doors more widely for hardcores - they already can go right in easily. And they are already there - so, they are not the players you talk about when considering increasing raid population.Basically, casuals are the only source of more players that raids can still use to increase its population. I mean, it could theoretically try to aim at completely different groups of hardcores, but both WvW modes also happen to have population problems of their own.

So, the real question is different: it is "should we try to save that hardcore content at all".

And secondly your "IF" is no longer a relevant point because you did not account in declining player interest/population in this game as a whole. Anet has constantly been nerfing down difficulties in obtaining rewards throughout the years and all it resulted is nothing but a wrecked economy and lots of bored players who made more gold AFK farming than playing anything else. Why would Anet spend further resources just to repeat the same mistakes and further damages they made in open world onto instanced contents? At the same time invite more opportunities with BOTs into farming nerfed Raid like how they messed up PvP? (remember Diablo 2?)Well, they don't have to, obviously. As i mentioned above, the alternative indeed is to leave raids abandoned and just forget about them. That's actually something that is more likely to happen. If you think that's better than the alternatives, sure, have it your way.

Oh, i am not saying there weren't other, very good reasons for a drop in raid popularity (difficulty spike from wing 4 to wing 5 alone was probably responsible for a lot, for example). It's just a question of whether rewards had any impact on raid population size or not. And about the consequences the answer to that question would bring.Even if it does the impact wouldn't have sustained, to sustain instanced content it needs a community who are willing repeat the content, make communication with other players and inspire each other in the process (which is unlikely to happen if the contents takes no effort to accomplish). This is what makes online co-ops more enticing than most open world single player games on the market. The least thing we need is another mute who only joins the group for a one time grab.Well, in that case i guess there's nothing that can be done, and we can just forget about this part of the game ever getting anything new again. Also, if so, what's the point of having the reward meant to pull people in, if it pulls the wrong kind of people? Wouldn't it be better to have it somewhere else instead, then?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:So your argument about inflated Raid popularity due to the legendary armor can be applied to the Open World as the primary (if not the only) reason the majority goes there to play. And the past is very clear indicator of that.Yes, it can be applied to OW as well, obviously. Notice though, that Anet has absolutely no problem nerfing OW rewards into the ground if they feel some place gets too much attention due to rewards.Notice also, that many of those OW achievements you brought up as comparison to raid wing popularity had no such reward farm attached to them at all. So, again, apples and oranges.

(also, i don't agree with your thinking that different-slot trinkets are exchangeable, but let's leave it at that. We're unlikely to persuade each another about the issue)

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:So, again, apples and oranges

Well you are the one who said HOT Raid popularity was inflated due to the legendary armor. Open World popularity is inflated by the gold/liquid rewards that allow players to buy anything they want from the gem store. Something Raids really lack by comparison. If you want gem store items, you farm the open world metas which really increases their popularity no?

Of course Arenanet nerfs OW rewards, especially when they want their next content to become more popular. They nerf the old to lead the players to the new, because they know the so called majority isn't gonna go to the new area just because it's more "fun" or "enjoyable". They don't play what is fun, but what is rewarding, that has been true since the very beginning. Which was the counter point to your argument about Raid popularity being inflated by legendary armor in the first place, as if the Open World popularity isn't also inflated by the liquid/gold rewards it offers. Remove those and you get dead content, meanwhile Raids are still being run to this day, even after those running them have multiple sets, or even run them multiple times in a week, even though their rewards are trash in repeat kills.

There are players that run content because they enjoy content (those who like the more niche content), and there are players who repeat content that is the most rewarding for the least effort (the so called "majority")

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