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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?


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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

Yup, this is pretty much my constant opinion about this topic, not sure where @Tyson.5160 took the idea that "I just don't want it in general" from.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Yes. They can use the easy mode to experience the story or to learn raid encounters. It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:It should not be an easy way to raid rewards no matter the acquisition pacing.

And, if done right, for most players it wouldn't be easy.An actual normal mode just should not be excessively hard (like current raids seem to be for the majority).Just because top end players would consider it easy, doesn't mean it would end up be easy for the majority of players.What top end players consider hard and easy should never be a measurement for difficulties targetting a broader audience.

There'd be no harm in reduced drop rates and amount that are dropped, even if it would only turn out to be 1 one LI/LD per wing endboss.It should be of no concern to top end players how other people choose to earn their legendary things.

No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.

I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.I would be happy if I and all the other people would be wrong and this easy fix would revive raid development.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

To me, there is nothing normal at that excessive tediousness that the current raids consist of.How does it even hurt you when more people can enjoy the same content on a normal mode and might actually find enjoyment out of that?If raids became more accessible via normal modes and more people enjoy them, Arenanet might actually decide to try and developing more raids.That's be a net positive for everyone involved.

Players are generally not going to get better or improve enough to match the current raids, so they won't participating in them as they are now.This means the participation will stay too low for Arenanet to consider raids at their current hardness worth putting any resources into.

Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now is literally the same as praying for no new wings to be released.

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@Xerac.1542 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

Fueki brings up a point, why does it matter to the top end players.

I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.

I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.I would be happy if I and all the other people would be wrong and this easy fix would revive raid development.

Yeah, very doable, as well paying for runs with Ingame gold for achievements or gems and like you said farming escort.
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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

To me, there is nothing normal at that excessive tediousness that the current raids consist of.How does it even hurt you when more people can enjoy the same content on a normal mode and might actually find enjoyment out of that?If raids became more accessible via normal modes and more people enjoy them, Arenanet might actually decide to try and developing more raids.That's be a net positive for everyone involved.

Players are generally not going to get better or improve enough to match the current raids, so they won't participating in them as they are now.This means the participation will stay too low for Arenanet to consider raids at their current hardness worth putting any resources into.

Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now is
literally
the same as praying for no new wings to be released.

Please don't conflate not having existing raid rewards available in an easy mode with not having an easy mode altogether. They're not the same thing.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of what you're proposing is "just getting rewards", role of what you don't want to become a thing is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:No. If they want existing raid rewards then they can do the raids on the normal difficulty which is what we have right now.

To me, there is nothing normal at that excessive tediousness that the current raids consist of.

But there's no "excessive tediousness" in current raids. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people didn't even try raids in the first place, not that they went in, tried learning raids and somehow weren't able to.

Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now is literally the same as praying for no new wings to be released.

Where did you get that from? Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now. That has nothing to do with "praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now". If you don't want to learn the content, it's on you, not the content or people trying to ease the way for you into that content.

Literally stop pretending raids are too hard to learn and then try to claim people that actually learned them somehow make the raids walled off from the rest of the community.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

True, it is similar to players "finishing" their armor in normal mode. Notice though that in this case normal mode and easy mode would start competing and players who are not interested in this mode but are here only for the rewards would be drawn far more to easy mode.

That is without considering the time it takes to actually get the rewards in normal mode. The bonding, social interaction with others, adapting to group play, improvement and process a player goes through to actually beat normal mode, which is not present in easy mode or at the very least not as much (visible in strikes which have no serious necessity for actual coordination and group play and thus has no meaningful social aspect to it).

The short term spike being drawn out is a weak argument, since if the time it takes is far to long (say 10 times as long as normal mode) the incentive is not given. If it is to short, it will directly undermine any reason to play normal mode to begin with. This is very visible in Spvp and WvW which both have differing time commitments for legendary armor, yet both are affected the same way in regards to players who are not interested in the content: no net player gain long-term (with some slight gain for WvW due to the sheer time commitment and nature of how rewards work in that mode increasing with time spent).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

It creates the same situation as in WvW or Spvp:Players are incentivized to just "afk", aka not put in any effort, the content to get the most reward at minimum effort. It creates a short term spike of players who want the easy rewards, and creates long-term problems for the content by not incentivizing players actually engage and master content.

The net result is what we see in Spvp now, and to some extent in WvW though it takes far longer there: players who "farmed" their rewards on low effort mode, even at extremely increased time needed, drop out of the content again and are not converted to active players and the modes are deader for it.

The short term spike could be drawn out depending on how many LI are required. I don’t see this as any different then players beating normal mode getting their Armor and not coming back. In this case you are drawing out the content in an easier mode especially if they want all 3 Armor sets. Some people after becoming more comfortable might opt for normal mode to gain rewards faster.

True, it is similar to players "finishing" their armor in normal mode. Notice though that in this case normal mode and easy mode would start competing and players who are not interested in this mode but are here only for the rewards would be drawn far more to easy mode.

That is without considering the time it takes to actually get the rewards in normal mode. The bonding, social interaction with others, adapting to group play, improvement and process a player goes through to actually beat normal mode, which is not present in easy mode or at the very least not as much (visible in strikes which have no serious necessity for actual coordination and group play and thus has no meaningful social aspect to it).

The short term spike being drawn out is a weak argument, since if the time it takes is far to long (say 10 times as long as normal mode) the incentive is not given. If it is to short, it will directly undermine any reason to play normal mode to begin with. This is very visible in Spvp and WvW which both have differing time commitments for legendary armor, yet both are affected the same way in regards to players who are not interested in the content: no net player gain long-term (with some slight gain for WvW due to the sheer time commitment and nature of how rewards work in that mode increasing with time spent).

The time taking too long would be the incentive to move to normal mode. This would in theory have more people in raids. Some might opt to stay in easy mode for all of it while others after doing easy mode long enough might jump to normal mode after they have become more comfortable.

This wouldn’t be competing with current raid resources because people doing raids in normal probably wouldn’t opt to do it slowly if they are comfort with normal mode. Those starting with easy mode would be players that wouldn’t have been in raids in the first place.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

I also made the suggestion in the distant past of following the same scheme as PVP/WvW. Give easy mode legendary Armor, but in the precursor skin similar to how it works for PvP/ WvW , then have the skin upgraded when normal is complete.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it than they do if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example of how the rewards can be structured.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean,
if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either
.The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

Have anyone even brought it up in this thread? Because if not, then I don't see the relevance? What I constantly see, though, are people that want to get rewards for not completing/learning the content. Yup, that's all. OP included. This thread, titled "if you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you...?" is not primarily made by people that want more raids. It's made by a people that want the rewards without playing through the content.

And I fail to see how implementing easy mode without rewards as a way to help new people [which for some reason are still scared of the current one] learn the content and then funnel them into actual regular raiding in an effort to actually influence the regular raiding playerbase is somehow "locking it down with the iron fist".

Ah and OP's claim that raids are somehow inaccessible to pugs (or even more: "you're really only effective in statics") is completely made up.

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Okay, after @"Obtena.7952" pointed it out and reading through the posts I see two problems. People doing raids right now simply want new players to adapt to the current state while "new" players want a stepping stone. Fine.

First I want to give an example with skyscale:I really wanted it but hate doing story... My options wereA ) sit through story and map grind until I got it since Anet made it that wayB ) not get itC ) try to propose an option to obtain it I like more and hope for it to be implemented

I went with A since C will never happen and I really wanted it.Same applies to raids currently.

How about this stepping stone for the easy mode to normal mode transition for newcomers without thinking about what exactly has to be adjusted to make it accessible.In easy mode you can not get LI/LD but special tokens like magnetite but instead of ascended gear you can buy legendary grade gear right away. BUT it is only usable in raid environments(easy/normal).People would be able to learn mechanics and get rewards progressing them towards normal raids with the ability to swap and tune builds at a much lower cost/effort to form functional comps.

This is the only way I can think of without interfering with other aspects of the game.

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