If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal. Players will indeed flock to the easy mode but it'll will not be like what people on here claim will happen. They won't learn the mechanics. They won't try to get better. All that they're do is take the path of least resistance to clear everything for the week as quickly as they can. Normal raids will still continue to lose players as there's no incentive for newer players to play them. Once players have their legendary armor, they'll abandon raids and we'll be right back where we are with no actual benefit provided to the actual raiding population.

Raids require decent DPS, specific roles, and knowledge of various mechanics which put much more personal responsibility on the player than elsewhere in the game. This is what is actually holding players back. Anet made the rest of PvE so brain dead easy, with no real risk of failure, that this is the state of the player base. When they tried to gradually scale up enemies to include mechanics and such, there was push back. There are many many players who do PvE content without putting in any real effort. Those who tried to do public DRMs, and even CMs, just saw how bad the situation actually is. You have players literally taking 8+ min to do the second phase of the Metrica DRM boss on normal.

The only real option is to incentivize players to perform better and learn the mechanics. Giving them access to the rewards isn't going to do that. The majority of those wanting an easy mode do not want to do that. They just want to obtain the rewards without putting in the effort and time it takes.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Sobx.1758" said:But there's no "excessive tediousness" in current raids. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people didn't even try raids in the first place, not that they went in, tried learning raids and somehow weren't able to.To me (and possibly others) the needlessly bloated HP pools of the bosses pointlessly prolong the combat time, causing the fights to become more tedious than necessary. Instead of adding mechanical difficulty, these HP pools just add fake difficulty by making people make more mistakes due to too long encountersIf Arenanet was to ever release a normal mode, they should cut the HP at least in half.

Where did you get that from?If Arenanet won't release a normal mode (or even an easy mode as a third option), the raid participation will not increase and thus, the raids will remain exclusive to the top end.If the raid participation won't rise, Arenanet should have no reason to throw money and other resources at it, so there shouldn't be more wings in the future.The resources are significantly better spent on content that a substantial part of the playerbase participates in, even if that content is Open World.

Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now.If you don't want to learn the content, it's on you, not the content or people trying to ease the way for you into that content.

Literally stop pretending raids are too hard to learn and then try to claim people that actually learned them somehow make the raids walled off from the rest of the community.

People generally will not get better, and top end players know that.

So for the most their training argument is just fancy writing for "I don't want more people raiding."I don't know why some top end people would want to prevent potentially fun content for other players (and even themselves).If it stays the way it is now, everyone loses out.

[Xerac.1542]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:But there's no "excessive tediousness" in current raids. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people didn't even try raids in the first place, not that they went in, tried learning raids and somehow

weren't able to

.To me (and possibly others) the needlessly bloated HP pools of the bosses pointlessly prolong the combat time, causing the fights to become more tedious than necessary. Instead of adding mechanical difficulty, these HP pools just add fake difficulty by making people make more mistakes due to too long encountersIf Arenanet was to ever release a normal mode, they should cut the HP at least in half.

The fights don't take that long and there is no bloated HP pool for bosses right now.Cutting it in half would only decrease the time to execute mechanics.If I run with training/low LI/ no req groups I mostly never see them fail due to enrage timer because there was too much HP but because people don't execute the needed mechanics correctly.I am sorry but adding more mechanics into a lower HP Boss would not work, at least I can't figure out how and why.But what I take away from this proposal reads to me as "I want the reward for less time spent"Could you elaborate on how cutting the HP in half would decrease the difficulty an let's say VG?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:But there's no "excessive tediousness" in current raids. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people didn't even try raids in the first place, not that they went in, tried learning raids and somehow

weren't able to

.To me (and possibly others) the needlessly bloated HP pools of the bosses pointlessly prolong the combat time, causing the fights to become more tedious than necessary. Instead of adding mechanical difficulty, these HP pools just add fake difficulty by making people make more mistakes due to too long encountersIf Arenanet was to ever release a normal mode, they should cut the HP at least in half.

Record times of the bosses suggest otherwise.

The harsh reality is:

1. the bosses in raids are being killed without exploits and good handle on game mechanics within 2-3 minute times, some of them even sub 1 minute
2. decent handle of game mechanics still leads to acceptable clear time in the sub 5 minute range. Hardly something which can be considered bloated
3. the enrage timers of 10 minutes are still below most industry standards record of other game raid bosses

What you perceive as bloated hit points is simply lack of skill and performance. The majority of failure in raids does not come from bosses having to much hit points but rather players failing mechanics which ultimately leads to even worse performance and damage output.

Feel free to check https://www.speedrun.com/gw2. You will be hard pressed to find any raid boss take longer than 2 minutes with an occasional 3 minute boss due to long phases.

@Fueki.4753 said:People generally will not get better, and top end players know that.

So for the most their training argument is just fancy writing for "I don't want more people raiding."I don't know why some top end people would want to prevent potentially fun content for other players (and even themselves).If it stays the way it is now, everyone loses out.

A friend of mine, former raid lead, came back in November last year. He started a raid static with 2-3 experienced players (low experience for wings 5-7) and some real life friends, new to GW2, as well as 1-2 random pickups from people he met 8 weeks ago. The static is now clearing W1-7 with the exception of Qadim 1, which is the final boss they are working on. They raid 2.5 hours on 2 days per week, Monday and Thursday, with an option raid on Sunday for trying new things.

Please don't assume most players just stay in 1 place performance wise. That's only true for players who do not enjoy to improve.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@"Fueki.4753" said:If Arenanet won't release a normal mode (or even an easy mode as a third option), the raid participation will not increase and thus, the raids will remain exclusive to the top end.If the raid participation won't rise, Arenanet should have no reason to throw money and other resources at it, so there shouldn't be more wings in the future.The resources are significantly better spent on content that a substantial part of the playerbase participates in, even if that content is Open World.

Normal mode has already been released. I feel like in parts of this lovely community, some perspective on what is actually hard is lacking. Overwhelming majority of game content is easy. Maybe that is why raids come of as "hard". If you look outside of GW bubble and compare difficulties, you might notice that we are playing very casual game.

People generally will not get betterPeople generally get better. It's one of the best traits of us as species. People learn from their mistakes and improve.

[Fueki.4753]

@Xerac.1542 said:The fights don't take that long and there is no bloated HP pool for bosses right now.Cutting it in half would only decrease the time to execute mechanics.If I run with training/low LI/ no req groups I mostly never see them fail due to enrage timer because there was too much HP but because people don't execute the needed mechanics correctly.I am sorry but adding more mechanics into a lower HP Boss would not work, at least I can't figure out how and why.

If you only consider top end players and their near-optimal setups, you might simply not notice the bloat.But once you were to consider the conditions average players, whom a normal mode would be targetted at, play at, the situation changes noticeably:

• nowhere near optimal boon coverage and uptime
• suboptimal rotations, if any at all
• hardly anyone with full ascended equipments, some people even not even using the optimal stats
• people playing individualized builds they enjoy more than optimal builds
• People are being downed here and there and people are going to try and revive them.

As you ought to realize, the damage with will plummet greatly and groups will be lucky to even have 20% of the damage a top end raiding team can do.That's why a significant shave is necessary for a normal mode.Since this shave would not affect the current hard mode, there'd be no reason for the top end to have a problem with that.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Record times of the bosses suggest otherwise.The harsh reality is:

1. the bosses in raids are being killed without exploits and good handle on game mechanics within 2-3 minute times, some of them even sub 1 minute
2. decent handle of game mechanics still leads to acceptable clear time in the sub 5 minute range. Hardly something which can be considered bloated
3. the enrage timers of 10 minutes are still below most industry standards record of other game raid bossesAnd all these things are done by parties with near-optimal conditions and top end players, which the normal mode would not be targetted at.

What you perceive as bloated hit points is simply lack of skill and performance.And that's why a normal mode should be available so the majority of people, who simply aren't as good as the top end and who have no desire to be as good, may also have the chance to enjoy raid content.

A friend of mine, former raid lead, came back in November last year. He started a raid static with 2-3 experienced players (low experience for wings 5-7) and some real life friends, new to GW2, as well as 1-2 random pickups from people he met 8 weeks ago. The static is now clearing W1-7 with the exception of Qadim 1, which is the final boss they are working on. They raid 2.5 hours on 2 days per week, Monday and Thursday, with an option raid on Sunday for trying new things.Please don't assume most players just stay in 1 place performance wise. That's only true for players who do not enjoy to improve.Note that I wrote generally.Of course there'll always be exceptions.But your friend was leading raids already, so he already had been on a vastly different level than the majority of the playerbase to begin with.

If people want to improve and enjoy the current hard mode that's fine by me.But everyone else should also have a chance to enjoy raids.

[Vilin.8056]

@Fueki.4753 said:

If you only consider top end players and their near-optimal setups, you might simply not notice the bloat.But once you were to consider the conditions average players, whom a normal mode would be targetted at, play at, the situation changes noticeably:

• nowhere near optimal boon coverage and uptime
• suboptimal rotations, if any at all
• hardly anyone with full ascended equipments, some people even not even using the optimal stats
• people playing individualized builds they enjoy more than optimal builds
• People are being downed here and there and people are going to try and revive them.

Such raids are already available, it's called World Boss.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Xerac.1542 said:The fights don't take that long and there is no bloated HP pool for bosses right now.Cutting it in half would only decrease the time to execute mechanics.If I run with training/low LI/ no req groups I mostly never see them fail due to enrage timer because there was too much HP but because people don't execute the needed mechanics correctly.I am sorry but adding more mechanics into a lower HP Boss would not work, at least I can't figure out how and why.

If you only consider top end players and their near-optimal setups, you might simply not notice the bloat.But once you were to consider the conditions average players, whom a normal mode would be targetted at, play at, the situation changes noticeably:

• nowhere near optimal boon coverage and uptime
• suboptimal rotations, if any at all
• hardly anyone with full ascended equipments, some people even not even using the optimal stats
• people playing individualized builds they enjoy more than optimal builds
• People are being downed here and there and people are going to try and revive them.

As you ought to realize, the damage with will plummet greatly and groups will be lucky to even have 20% of the damage a top end raiding team can do.That's why a significant shave is necessary for a normal mode.Since this shave would not affect the current hard mode, there'd be no reason for the top end to have a problem with that.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Record times of the bosses suggest otherwise.The harsh reality is:

1. the bosses in raids are being killed without exploits and good handle on game mechanics within 2-3 minute times, some of them even sub 1 minute
2. decent handle of game mechanics still leads to acceptable clear time in the sub 5 minute range. Hardly something which can be considered bloated
3. the enrage timers of 10 minutes are still below most industry standards record of other game raid bossesAnd all these things are done by parties with near-optimal conditions and top end players, which the normal mode would not be targetted at.

That's simply not true. The records yes, but the average player in raids has hardly these perfect conditions and still manages.

People really need to stop making raids out to be this huge difficult content because quite frankly they are not.

What is required is a fundamental understanding of the game beyond picking random stats and traits and how to use the dodge button. Then figuring out boss patterns.

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:A friend of mine, former raid lead, came back in November last year. He started a raid static with 2-3 experienced players (low experience for wings 5-7) and some real life friends, new to GW2, as well as 1-2 random pickups from people he met 8 weeks ago. The static is now clearing W1-7 with the exception of Qadim 1, which is the final boss they are working on. They raid 2.5 hours on 2 days per week, Monday and Thursday, with an option raid on Sunday for trying new things.Please don't assume most players just stay in 1 place performance wise. That's only true for players who do not enjoy to improve.Note that I wrote

generally.

Of course there'll always be exceptions.But your friend was leading raids already, so he already had been on a vastly different level than the majority of the playerbase to begin with.

If people want to improve and enjoy the current hard mode that's fine by me.But everyone else should also have a chance to enjoy raids.

The friends he got to join the game were not (2 are in the static). They literally started GW2 and had to start from scratch.

They had to:

• level up (they might have used the PoF boost on their first class, not sure)
• gear up in exotics, granted easy when others can help
• gradually acquire ascended items, most of which came from raid drops and I believe the collection armor was the first ascended set they acquired
• get familiar with the game
• learn how to play their class
• learn boss encounters

All of that in less than 1-2 weeks only to get thrown into the deep end with raids immediatly. On a realistic 2 raids per week schedule.

Now the 2 are beginning to mid 20s and gamers, they did not no-life the game, but they did listen to advice given and went to practice on the golem rotations.

It is very hard for me to understand why others, in part longterm veterans of this game, are struggling. Except for lack of time (which is a huge issue agreed), disabilities or simply lack of interest, there is nothing holding back players here.

[Xerac.1542]

@Fueki.4753I don't quote because the threads are getting long.

You are correct. The damage drops as soon as you get people not using well rounded or coherent builds.See, I don't really care if anyone is playing whatever SC is advertising but there is no doubt the got the synergy of traits and stuff down.I don't agree with lowering the bar for any content to the point where doing whatever you want brings profit. (yes, I know that is the big selling point of the pve part of the game)There are enough builds that work.@LadyKitty.6120 brings up so many builds that deal enough damage by just auto attacking and passive healing.I mean if a player is not willing to read the traits they are picking I am positive they neither care about understanding the mechanics of raid bosses.

You may be able to get a screw into a wall using a hammer but nobody wants you to help them set up furniture.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.Anyone that could be incentivized to go into normal for those rewards has done that long ago.

@"Xerac.1542" said:I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?No. Seeing others not getting the good stuff i have access to does not make me feel better. I guess i am not a competitive kind of person, but more of a supportive/cooperative one.And having others obtain rewards would not interfere with my feelings of accomplishments. My ego is not so fragile that i would need to reinforce it by showing off my accomplishments to others via some exclusive rewards. It is enough for me that I know what i can and cannot do.

The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.Ironically, escort is easy mainly to the people that already can do the other raid encounters with no problem. For others, it is a lengthy mission with many easy-to-hit instant failure points, that requires most of the players to know exactly what they should do and do their roles well. In that regard it's actually harder than, say Cairn where few players can carry the encounter.

I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.That's why the main point of easy mode should not be training (and having people "graduate" to normal). The point would be to inflate overall raid participation by having people play easy mode. That would justify spending resources on raids, with some of those resources ending up being spent on higher difficulty tiers.

I know, i know, raiders would prefer to have all of those resources for their modes, and that's why they never wanted to share them with potential easy mode players. In the end, though, a fraction of some amount of resources is still better than a 100% of zero.

Look at how FF XIV does that - majority of players play the "nomal" (the easy tier) mode exclusively. Only very limited number of players play the "savage" mode (the real raid tier). Still, the number of people playing normal mode means that devs can justify making it, and then reuse its assets to create savage tier for raiding community. Which, otherwise, would get left with nothing.

But for that to work, easy mode does need to have meaningful rewards.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Xerac.1542" said:People doing raids right now simply want new players to adapt to the current state.Yep. The main problem with that is that it's a pure miracle wishing. Most of the players that could and wanted to adapt had done that long ago. There might be some occasional new conversions, but they will not be numerous enough to matter.

Some raiders still believe that the problem lies in people simply not realizing they like raids, or being too lazy, and that it's possible to "show them the way" or somehow force them to put more effort in. And when that happens, everything will be fine, and we'll all be able to happily go back to how it was at no change to raid content itself. That's why even now they still strongly oppose any changes. Because to them there's nothing to fix with raids itself - it's the players that need fixing. And they still hope, against all reason, that Anet will think of some way to wave a magic wand and brainwashenlighten all those people that do not play "the right way".

Unfortunately, it's not going to work like that. The players will not suddenly change. As such, the only way to increase raid population is to change raid accessibility - either by making the already existing content more open (which many curent raiders are definitely not going to like), or by adding a more accessible version of them that will be desirable to players on its own.

Or, we can do nothing and acknowledge that there's simply not going to be more raids.

[Enlil.7140]

As a beginner I think this is the greatest MMO out and hope that changes can be made to benefit old and new players alike.If they added some beginner tutorial raids and raids that can be done by less people a few more times a week, also increase weekly raid by atleast 1 for 5 man and 3 for 3 man if they make that content. Maybe add a way to group easier with randoms if not already optimized. I think expanding raid content and not putting such a limit on how often you can do it, if i gotta wait a week everytime I raid Ill find a better option, and that I think is a big issue?

[Obtena.7952]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode. Please don’t twist this around and make this as if it was my idea and especially in the rest of my post, which you didn’t quote, I argued against this.

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

[Sobx.1758]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:But there's no "excessive tediousness" in current raids. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most people didn't even try raids in the first place, not that they went in, tried learning raids and somehow

weren't able to

.To me (and possibly others) the needlessly bloated HP pools of the bosses pointlessly prolong the combat time, causing the fights to become more tedious than necessary. Instead of adding mechanical difficulty, these HP pools just add fake difficulty by making people make more mistakes due to too long encountersIf Arenanet was to ever release a normal mode, they should cut the HP at least in half.

Get a decent build (and by "decent" I don't need "top" or "meta") and they don't really take that long. I disagree with hp pools being somehow overly bloated in raids. Replacing everything with "pure mechanic difficulty" doesn't seem to be an option, seeing how this is still A RAID and not some kind of jumping puzzle. You need to deal dmg in addition to completing/avoiding/understanding the mechanics. That's... kind of the point?

Where did you get that from?If Arenanet won't release a normal mode (or even an easy mode as a third option), the raid participation will not increase and thus, the raids will remain exclusive to the top end.If the raid participation won't rise, Arenanet should have no reason to throw money and other resources at it, so there shouldn't be more wings in the future.The resources are significantly better spent on content that a substantial part of the playerbase participates in, even if that content is Open World.

When I asked "where did you get that from?", I was asking about this: "Praying for raids to remain as exclusive as they are now"Who is "praying for raids to remain exclusive"? Did you miss majority of the thread with people discussing how/if it's possible to get new players into raids while still allowing raids to remain what they actually are?Somehow I assumed it was obvious that's what I was talking about seeing how I followed with "Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now.", but I guess I should be more specific.

Easy/training mode would allow people to get into raids if they're too scared to even try/learn them now.If you don't want to learn the content, it's on you, not the content or people trying to ease the way for you into that content.

Literally

stop pretending raids are too hard to learn and then try to claim people that actually learned them somehow make the raids walled off from the rest of the community.

People generally will not get better,

They won't if they remain entitled and refuse to learn because they just don't want to while also pretend they deserve any reward they want by default.

and top end players know that.

No, for me that's just a completely baseless claim for the sake of pretending "those bad top players don't want you to play the content".

So for the most their training argument is just fancy writing for "I don't want more people raiding."

Nope, that's just false and has nothing to do with what is presented by people in this thread, including me.

[Sobx.1758]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

[Tyson.5160]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

[Sobx.1758]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people that want to learn the cointent into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains (edit: oops, forgot about bounties and fractals on the way here). You can already play what you want on varying levels of difficulty, stop trying to reshape everything into exactly what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor must be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Tyson.5160 said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development? Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different? It won't, but I guess those offering these so called suggestions already know that.

[Xerac.1542]

I fell like we have hit the bottom on this discussion again.Problem is and always will be that it is impossible to make everyone happy while having limited resources.

I am not against easy modes of raids, give them obtainable legendary grade armor (with stat swap and all) and make it only usable in raid environment.But I am afraid if easy/normal/whatever difficulty level of raids gets added and it is more successful we won't see another level added. If there was legendary strike armor obtainable by doing Shiverpeaks everyday for 3 months it wouldn't be any more beneficial to new raids/strikes than a new difficulty level of current raids.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Xerac.1542" said:I would say that interferes with the pride and joy people feel by accomplishing stuff others have not done (yet).Don't you feel better if you do something well other can't?No. Seeing others not getting the good stuff i have access to does not make me feel better. I guess i am not a competitive kind of person, but more of a supportive/cooperative one.And having others obtain rewards would not interfere with my feelings of accomplishments. My ego is not so fragile that i would need to reinforce it by showing off my accomplishments to others via some exclusive rewards. It is enough for me that

I

know what i can and cannot do.

The same applies to all rewards. There is an easy way to get your LI on easy mode at a reduced rate... It is called Escort.Ironically, escort is easy mainly to the people that already can do the other raid encounters with no problem. For others, it is a lengthy mission with many easy-to-hit instant failure points, that requires most of the players to know exactly what they should do and do their roles well. In that regard it's actually harder than, say Cairn where few players can carry the encounter.

I am not against an easy mode to learn mechanics but I feel like it won't work because there wouldn't be meaningful rewards besides the experience you gain to get into "real" raids and adding an extra step does not motivate players who don't like raids now to suddenly like them more.That's why the main point of easy mode should

not

be training (and having people "graduate" to normal). The point would be to inflate overall raid participation by having people play

easy

mode. That would justify spending resources on raids, with

some

of those resources ending up being spent on higher difficulty tiers.

I know, i know, raiders would prefer to have

all

of those resources for their modes, and that's why they never wanted to share them with potential easy mode players. In the end, though, a fraction of some amount of resources is still better than a 100% of

zero

.

Look at how FF XIV does that - majority of players play the "nomal" (the easy tier) mode exclusively. Only very limited number of players play the "savage" mode (the real raid tier). Still, the number of people playing normal mode means that devs can justify making it, and then reuse its assets to create savage tier for raiding community. Which, otherwise, would get left with nothing.

But for that to work, easy mode

does

need to have meaningful rewards.

Going off from your argument and inverting it would mean:

If more people who are positive on "easy" mode would put in time to progress in current raid setting this would inflate the numbers and would justify spending resources on raids, with some of those resources ending up being spent on lower/other difficulty tiers.Right?This is not a good argument and neither is yours to me but we will simply have to agree to disagree on that.

After all this time I would be happy if they added any new form of raids even if they are less complicated.It would be a nice experiment to see if this really inflates the amount of players doing raids. Then again I feel like strikes did exactly that and it didn't work because the mindsets of people are different.I go into a raid because I want to play my role and perform well within my group instead of just wanting to be there for the lousy 2 gold reward.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people

that want to learn the cointent

into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.

As it stands Raids has 0 dev time. 0. Which means this current raid community isn’t healthy enough for Anet to consider adding more raids. The proof is in the pudding on that. You can whine and you can kitten about that fact, but it is what it is. If you want more people to join, that haven’t already, (probably because there are options to obtain rewards like legendary Armor and rings from other sources), then it’s going to be a more outside the box approach, ie easy mode raids.

It’s terms of no compromise, I didn’t state you directly, yet you did clearly elaborate afterwards how little compromise you have, but eh whatever. Then you follow up with a nice round of mockery, about easier raids DRM, strikes etc, that’s cool, you do you, I guess.

[Sobx.1758]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:

• No LI/LD acquisition
• No achievement/collection progression
• Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of

what you're proposing

is "just getting rewards", role of

what you don't want to become a thing

is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people

that want to learn the cointent

into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve.

Didn't hit a nerve, just calling what you do for what it is, starting with false claims of "trying to reach compromise, but nobody wants to". I don't know if you were pretending or that's really what you think, but that's not really what is happening in this thread.

if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests

I already mentioned about that in one of the earlier posts: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1448652/#Comment_1448652

OP isn't one of the people that are interested in getting more raids. He's one of the people that are interested in getting legendary armor "by default" and pretends that him getting those rewards would somehow save raids based on a couple of false claims (like what I've mentioned in the linked post or the fact that he claims "training squads are bad because they don't focus on a kill, but instead on the mechanics"[???] -apparently "it's demoralizing" that people want players to understand the mechanics without magically skipping to last hitting a boss, I fail to see how any of that is factual or how else those "training squads" would be supposed to work).

It’s terms of no compromise, I didn’t state you directly, yet you did clearly elaborate afterwards how little compromise you have, but eh whatever. Then you follow up with a nice round of mockery, about easier raids DRM, strikes etc, that’s cool, you do you, I guess.

And yet somehow you've answered with that to my post (and pretty much nothing more than that), but if you say so now, then... sure, I guess we can pretend it wasn't directed at me and just coincidentally happened to find its way as a main body of the post responding to what I wrote.Me mentioning all the other content that 's similar but possibly mostly easier wasn't "mockery" at all.

[Tyson.5160]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development? Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different? It won't, but I guess those offering these so called suggestions already know that.

If Anet released a new raid that had an easy, normal and CM, which brought every player into the game to raids, how would that be a bad thing. The devs need a justification for producing this content and the current raid community isn’t big enough to justify the resources.