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Good lord, people still play spvp?


JTGuevara.9018

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@Daddy.8125 said:

The largest wow streamer does transmog events. They are larger then the games events in popularity.

Lol I've never played WoW and never will, but I still watch Asmon.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to understand? The person who said that is actually being logically consistent: their position is that people unfamiliar with the game/spvp shouldn't give much stock to
anyone's
opinion other than their own, and should form that personal opinion on the basis of their own experience of the mode. You keep trying to make this about agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion on the state of the mode, which wasn't the point of that comment to begin with.

Since BDO's been mentioned and I play that game as well, I can say that BDO is not directly p2w in the sense that you can buy direct upgrades to combat abilities, but you can pay your way past a ton of inconveniences involved with grinding out the in-game money needed to get upgrades. And unlike GW2, your gear and level matter a ton in BDO. So ultimately it's p2w, but you still need a significant amount of work, RNG, and knowledge of how the game works to actually take advantage of what your money bought you. Over time the game also hands out most of these conveniences in sufficient number that you can be mostly f2p and still have enough of the right resources to look and play a lot like a whale, at least for a few main characters that you play. You just have to make sure you're around to cash in on those handouts.

As for combat balance, 1v1 in BDO basically devolves into 1 of 2 options: (1) whoever lands the first cc wins, as there are no stun breaks in that game, or (2) whoever is playing a class that is notoriously OP through exploiting bugs (blocks are supposed to work against every non-grappling attack, but some attacks straight up ignore them, and other blatant balance issues). Can't say anything about large-scale pvp in BDO as I haven't done it myself, but I hear it's like WvW in the sense that there are heavily favored classes due to group utility, and many others are just plain useless. To top it all off, BDO has no build diversity. The goal is to train up every single passive and active ability available to your class, since you have access to all of them at once. There really is no sense of counterplay in most small scale fights, there's pretty much no answer to getting ganked suddenly in the open world. The only way you survive is if the person trying to gank you is bad, or is below your level/gear and has no business picking a fight with you in the first place.

While GW2 doesn't have those specific issues,
I agree balance is still a joke in sPvP
. Much of this has to do with the fact that the game forces us to pick and choose our passives and actives, so it's much easier for the devs to make nominally targeted changes that have unexpected consequences. I don't have much more to say that others haven't already said more intelligently, so I'll just leave it at that.

I stopped playing ranked for mmr anywhere from 10 to 15 seasons ago, lost count. I came back to playing ranked just because it's still the fastest way for me to work up another weight of legendary armor, as I loathe WvW and don't feel like raiding for it in PvE. I'm stuck in gold 3 it seems, as I don't take any measures to queue at a more favorable time or otherwise preserve my rating. I'm certainly not having a lot of fun, but there's a good amount of gold to be had in farming the Byzantium chests, and of course reward tracks as well. I'm certain a significant portion of people putting in a lot of hours into ranked are in the same boat as I am.

I understand the concept just fine, I just take the opposing position. Newer players need to give
some
stock to others' opinions. They're new! They've never played before. They don't know how what, where, why, when, how the game is. They simply don't have the experience to make an accurate or more complete judgement of a game.

I also stick by my position on gw2. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, what with all the bots, lack of population, bad matchmaking, then mmopvp's are
done
, they've lost. It's over. There is simply no way that gw2(or any other mmorpg for that matter) competes with battle royale games, FPS and RTS, games that are much better made with respect to multiplayer.

Finally, mmos. All this discussion about ff14, WoW, and gw2 shows me that mmorpgs are on an irreversible decline. mmos, as with online games, are critically dependant on population and the quality of communities to function. And they've pretty much lost population to battle royale games. mmos had their era in the 2000s, but those days aren't coming back. I look at it like this, when an mmo declines one of two things happen: it goes on automated life-support supported by a niche holdover community(gw1 for example) where the game is basically all-but-dead in a vegetative state or it gets the axe. Either way, that mmo will never be the same again, it will never be as popular as it once was. It will be a shell. People and communities eventually move on to other things. People need to accept the fact that one of the two things may happen to their mmo of choice, despite the hours and time they've spent on it.

Edit: The last sentence is a key reason why I don't invest in mmos as much as I used to. People just end up investing more than what they get out of it and it's going to decline anyway! mmos simply do
not
respect your time. gw
does
do a better job at this, but at the end of the day it's still an mmo.

Mmorpg PvP has been dead for a decade you are soo far late with such a statement. I don't know if you have reliesed but a massive amount of companies have gone to lengths to build prior PvP genre games..

GW2 has bots.ESO has instability and botsWow has excessive use of boosting.Rifts Devs litterally stated they aren't going to try balance PvP anymore. And removed support for it.FFXIV don't have a PvP scene to start with.Most Asian mmorpgs are litteral a handful of whales 1 shotting each other.

GW2 having interesting classes and good combat gives gw2 a half decent PvP experience on the side of also having open world content and PvE options.

If your here only for PvP. I question to exactly why... Mmorpgs are the worst form of main PvP you could likely access..

Look at even streamers. Majority of the PvP focused players are gone.. u just see variety streamers on gw2 now. And that's because that's what it does well.

Being able to log on and enjoy some PvP or PvE content with some friends in a enviroment which doesn't push chores on you.

Mmorpgs aren't on a decline. PvP in mmorpgs are on the decline because of how many new genres and more surround PvP as a only end game.

This^ if u like pvp play why the f.... would u chose a mmo for such as they are literally the worst version of pvp u could play.

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It isn't bunker meta but it feels like bunker meta.

There's a good reason why that's the case. Cooldowns are getting higher, dps builds are getting nerfed left and right. Nade holo, Herald, Renegade, burn DH, Soulbeast, every iteration of dps ele... We're reaching a point where you deal less dps for picking dps traits than you deal for picking sustain traits.

Take renegade for example. We recently nerfed vindication, significantly reducing the amount of might stacks they get to run around with. Yes, this toned down the rediculous damage they did with sevenshot, but this also starts to encourage renegades to trait into Righteous Rebel over Vindication.

35% damage reduction to condi damage lets you stay in fights longer against condition builds. More time alive = more damage dealt.

On Holo, we nerfed nades... Several times, with the last nerf arguably being a bit more than was necessary. Yes, it toned down a build that was overperforming relative to everything else, but it also encouraged Holos to start running tankier utilities over grenades. We're starting to see more Elixir Gun, Slick shoes, Elixir U and Elixir S.

And of course you have thieves running SA over DA or CS

Little changes like this add up over time, resulting in a sort of death by a thousand cuts (or death by a thousand nerfs). With each nerf to dps the game gets more bunekry.Players start to see fewer payoffs for good plays in terms of damage dealth, making it feel like their abilities have little impact. So they say "bunker meta" when in reality dealing dps simply feels unrewarding right now.

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@Daddy.8125 said:

The largest wow streamer does transmog events. They are larger then the games events in popularity.

Lol I've never played WoW and never will, but I still watch Asmon.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to understand? The person who said that is actually being logically consistent: their position is that people unfamiliar with the game/spvp shouldn't give much stock to
anyone's
opinion other than their own, and should form that personal opinion on the basis of their own experience of the mode. You keep trying to make this about agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion on the state of the mode, which wasn't the point of that comment to begin with.

Since BDO's been mentioned and I play that game as well, I can say that BDO is not directly p2w in the sense that you can buy direct upgrades to combat abilities, but you can pay your way past a ton of inconveniences involved with grinding out the in-game money needed to get upgrades. And unlike GW2, your gear and level matter a ton in BDO. So ultimately it's p2w, but you still need a significant amount of work, RNG, and knowledge of how the game works to actually take advantage of what your money bought you. Over time the game also hands out most of these conveniences in sufficient number that you can be mostly f2p and still have enough of the right resources to look and play a lot like a whale, at least for a few main characters that you play. You just have to make sure you're around to cash in on those handouts.

As for combat balance, 1v1 in BDO basically devolves into 1 of 2 options: (1) whoever lands the first cc wins, as there are no stun breaks in that game, or (2) whoever is playing a class that is notoriously OP through exploiting bugs (blocks are supposed to work against every non-grappling attack, but some attacks straight up ignore them, and other blatant balance issues). Can't say anything about large-scale pvp in BDO as I haven't done it myself, but I hear it's like WvW in the sense that there are heavily favored classes due to group utility, and many others are just plain useless. To top it all off, BDO has no build diversity. The goal is to train up every single passive and active ability available to your class, since you have access to all of them at once. There really is no sense of counterplay in most small scale fights, there's pretty much no answer to getting ganked suddenly in the open world. The only way you survive is if the person trying to gank you is bad, or is below your level/gear and has no business picking a fight with you in the first place.

While GW2 doesn't have those specific issues,
I agree balance is still a joke in sPvP
. Much of this has to do with the fact that the game forces us to pick and choose our passives and actives, so it's much easier for the devs to make nominally targeted changes that have unexpected consequences. I don't have much more to say that others haven't already said more intelligently, so I'll just leave it at that.

I stopped playing ranked for mmr anywhere from 10 to 15 seasons ago, lost count. I came back to playing ranked just because it's still the fastest way for me to work up another weight of legendary armor, as I loathe WvW and don't feel like raiding for it in PvE. I'm stuck in gold 3 it seems, as I don't take any measures to queue at a more favorable time or otherwise preserve my rating. I'm certainly not having a lot of fun, but there's a good amount of gold to be had in farming the Byzantium chests, and of course reward tracks as well. I'm certain a significant portion of people putting in a lot of hours into ranked are in the same boat as I am.

I understand the concept just fine, I just take the opposing position. Newer players need to give
some
stock to others' opinions. They're new! They've never played before. They don't know how what, where, why, when, how the game is. They simply don't have the experience to make an accurate or more complete judgement of a game.

I also stick by my position on gw2. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, what with all the bots, lack of population, bad matchmaking, then mmopvp's are
done
, they've lost. It's over. There is simply no way that gw2(or any other mmorpg for that matter) competes with battle royale games, FPS and RTS, games that are much better made with respect to multiplayer.

Finally, mmos. All this discussion about ff14, WoW, and gw2 shows me that mmorpgs are on an irreversible decline. mmos, as with online games, are critically dependant on population and the quality of communities to function. And they've pretty much lost population to battle royale games. mmos had their era in the 2000s, but those days aren't coming back. I look at it like this, when an mmo declines one of two things happen: it goes on automated life-support supported by a niche holdover community(gw1 for example) where the game is basically all-but-dead in a vegetative state or it gets the axe. Either way, that mmo will never be the same again, it will never be as popular as it once was. It will be a shell. People and communities eventually move on to other things. People need to accept the fact that one of the two things may happen to their mmo of choice, despite the hours and time they've spent on it.

Edit: The last sentence is a key reason why I don't invest in mmos as much as I used to. People just end up investing more than what they get out of it and it's going to decline anyway! mmos simply do
not
respect your time. gw
does
do a better job at this, but at the end of the day it's still an mmo.

Mmorpg PvP has been dead for a decade you are soo far late with such a statement. I don't know if you have reliesed but a massive amount of companies have gone to lengths to build prior PvP genre games..

GW2 has bots.ESO has instability and botsWow has excessive use of boosting.Rifts Devs litterally stated they aren't going to try balance PvP anymore. And removed support for it.FFXIV don't have a PvP scene to start with.Most Asian mmorpgs are litteral a handful of whales 1 shotting each other.

GW2 having interesting classes and good combat gives gw2 a half decent PvP experience on the side of also having open world content and PvE options.

If your here only for PvP. I question to exactly why... Mmorpgs are the worst form of main PvP you could likely access..

Look at even streamers. Majority of the PvP focused players are gone.. u just see variety streamers on gw2 now. And that's because that's what it does well.

Being able to log on and enjoy some PvP or PvE content with some friends in a enviroment which doesn't push chores on you.

Mmorpgs aren't on a decline. PvP in mmorpgs are on the decline because of how many new genres and more surround PvP as a only end game.

First off, no I am not late. mmorpg pvp still had life then due to the investment in "esports" and ranked leagues which brought a short spike of players for a time in order to compete with other rising genres. (See core gw2 and HoT) Now it's dead. Second, I already quit. I am not in this for pvp whatsoever. Were it that people actually READ before they post, I've said as such.

Honestly, I'm really only in this for the living world and the trickle of friends that still play gw2. I've done everything else...for years! (I think 8k hours is enough don't you think!) And no, mmo's in general are in decline. pve included. pve is simply in better shape because of all the money being invested in putting out cosmetics and occasional content. That, at the very least, maintains the game. But just like resources have dried up for pvp, there's no reason to think that they won't dry up for pve as well.

Again, if WoW is struggling mightily, imagine everything else.

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:

The largest wow streamer does transmog events. They are larger then the games events in popularity.

Lol I've never played WoW and never will, but I still watch Asmon.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Why is this such a difficult concept for you to understand? The person who said that is actually being logically consistent: their position is that people unfamiliar with the game/spvp shouldn't give much stock to
anyone's
opinion other than their own, and should form that personal opinion on the basis of their own experience of the mode. You keep trying to make this about agreeing or disagreeing with your opinion on the state of the mode, which wasn't the point of that comment to begin with.

Since BDO's been mentioned and I play that game as well, I can say that BDO is not directly p2w in the sense that you can buy direct upgrades to combat abilities, but you can pay your way past a ton of inconveniences involved with grinding out the in-game money needed to get upgrades. And unlike GW2, your gear and level matter a ton in BDO. So ultimately it's p2w, but you still need a significant amount of work, RNG, and knowledge of how the game works to actually take advantage of what your money bought you. Over time the game also hands out most of these conveniences in sufficient number that you can be mostly f2p and still have enough of the right resources to look and play a lot like a whale, at least for a few main characters that you play. You just have to make sure you're around to cash in on those handouts.

As for combat balance, 1v1 in BDO basically devolves into 1 of 2 options: (1) whoever lands the first cc wins, as there are no stun breaks in that game, or (2) whoever is playing a class that is notoriously OP through exploiting bugs (blocks are supposed to work against every non-grappling attack, but some attacks straight up ignore them, and other blatant balance issues). Can't say anything about large-scale pvp in BDO as I haven't done it myself, but I hear it's like WvW in the sense that there are heavily favored classes due to group utility, and many others are just plain useless. To top it all off, BDO has no build diversity. The goal is to train up every single passive and active ability available to your class, since you have access to all of them at once. There really is no sense of counterplay in most small scale fights, there's pretty much no answer to getting ganked suddenly in the open world. The only way you survive is if the person trying to gank you is bad, or is below your level/gear and has no business picking a fight with you in the first place.

While GW2 doesn't have those specific issues,
I agree balance is still a joke in sPvP
. Much of this has to do with the fact that the game forces us to pick and choose our passives and actives, so it's much easier for the devs to make nominally targeted changes that have unexpected consequences. I don't have much more to say that others haven't already said more intelligently, so I'll just leave it at that.

I stopped playing ranked for mmr anywhere from 10 to 15 seasons ago, lost count. I came back to playing ranked just because it's still the fastest way for me to work up another weight of legendary armor, as I loathe WvW and don't feel like raiding for it in PvE. I'm stuck in gold 3 it seems, as I don't take any measures to queue at a more favorable time or otherwise preserve my rating. I'm certainly not having a lot of fun, but there's a good amount of gold to be had in farming the Byzantium chests, and of course reward tracks as well. I'm certain a significant portion of people putting in a lot of hours into ranked are in the same boat as I am.

I understand the concept just fine, I just take the opposing position. Newer players need to give
some
stock to others' opinions. They're new! They've never played before. They don't know how what, where, why, when, how the game is. They simply don't have the experience to make an accurate or more complete judgement of a game.

I also stick by my position on gw2. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, what with all the bots, lack of population, bad matchmaking, then mmopvp's are
done
, they've lost. It's over. There is simply no way that gw2(or any other mmorpg for that matter) competes with battle royale games, FPS and RTS, games that are much better made with respect to multiplayer.

Finally, mmos. All this discussion about ff14, WoW, and gw2 shows me that mmorpgs are on an irreversible decline. mmos, as with online games, are critically dependant on population and the quality of communities to function. And they've pretty much lost population to battle royale games. mmos had their era in the 2000s, but those days aren't coming back. I look at it like this, when an mmo declines one of two things happen: it goes on automated life-support supported by a niche holdover community(gw1 for example) where the game is basically all-but-dead in a vegetative state or it gets the axe. Either way, that mmo will never be the same again, it will never be as popular as it once was. It will be a shell. People and communities eventually move on to other things. People need to accept the fact that one of the two things may happen to their mmo of choice, despite the hours and time they've spent on it.

Edit: The last sentence is a key reason why I don't invest in mmos as much as I used to. People just end up investing more than what they get out of it and it's going to decline anyway! mmos simply do
not
respect your time. gw
does
do a better job at this, but at the end of the day it's still an mmo.

Mmorpg PvP has been dead for a decade you are soo far late with such a statement. I don't know if you have reliesed but a massive amount of companies have gone to lengths to build prior PvP genre games..

GW2 has bots.ESO has instability and botsWow has excessive use of boosting.Rifts Devs litterally stated they aren't going to try balance PvP anymore. And removed support for it.FFXIV don't have a PvP scene to start with.Most Asian mmorpgs are litteral a handful of whales 1 shotting each other.

GW2 having interesting classes and good combat gives gw2 a half decent PvP experience on the side of also having open world content and PvE options.

If your here only for PvP. I question to exactly why... Mmorpgs are the worst form of main PvP you could likely access..

Look at even streamers. Majority of the PvP focused players are gone.. u just see variety streamers on gw2 now. And that's because that's what it does well.

Being able to log on and enjoy some PvP or PvE content with some friends in a enviroment which doesn't push chores on you.

Mmorpgs aren't on a decline. PvP in mmorpgs are on the decline because of how many new genres and more surround PvP as a only end game.

First off, no I am not late. mmorpg pvp still had life then due to the investment in "esports" and ranked leagues which brought a short spike of players for a time in order to compete with other rising genres. (See core gw2 and HoT)
Now
it's dead. Second,
I already quit.
I am not in this for pvp whatsoever. Were it that people actually READ before they post, I've said as such.

Honestly, I'm really only in this for the living world and the trickle of friends that still play gw2. I've done everything else...for years! (I think 8k hours is enough don't you think!) And no, mmo's in general are in decline. pve included. pve is simply in better shape because of all the money being invested in putting out cosmetics and occasional content. That, at the very least, maintains the game. But just like resources have dried up for pvp, there's no reason to think that they won't dry up for pve as well.

Again, if WoW is struggling mightily, imagine everything else.

Well, WoW is struggling because it's nearly two decades old and has increasingly been gutted in favor of systems driven low effort content with about 10% of the profit it brings in seemingly being funneled into creating decent content. The environment artists seem to be the only talented ones left in that studio - or at least the only ones that really care. (And maybe the encounter designers that design boss fights.)

Just my opinion. GW2 has always been light on in-game earnable rewards but it's a free to play business model. Compare that with WoW that's 15 dollars a month with MILLIONS of players and huge corporate backing with multiple other IP's and even in my saltiest days with Guild Wars 2 - they still push out an impressive amount of content for not having a sub. I mean this new part of the Saga is certainly the weakest and the rewards in general in this game are still terrible on average, but if you do a 30 minute dungeon run in Guild Wars 2 you earn a little gold, materials, and have an extremely dismal chance at obtaining something valuable for the trading post. You do a 30 minute dungeon run in WoW and you likely get... 0 gear to upgrade.. a few silver worth of random junk items clogging up your bags, and if you're extremely lucky something a few ilvl's higher that will be replaced so quickly that it's pointless.

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I quit SPvP in January of 2020 and never looked back after being accused of match manipulation and apparently reported enough to where I got kicked out of the game in the middle of the match that was still even and I was participating in. So, ironically, whoever on the staff did that was guilty of match manipulation themselves, causing my team to likely lose. It'd have been one thing if they waited until after the match was over to do that, but that showing of hypocrisy on their part helped me realize this mode was ultimately not worth the trouble. I walked away from PvP and WvW and never looked back, and it was one of the smartest decisions I've ever made.

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@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend hours in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem; they are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@avey.4201 said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@avey.4201 said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@avey.4201 said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a lot of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@avey.4201 said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@"avey.4201" said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

I mean considering they are out and have been out just not in our region; Lost Ark, Elyon. I'd say those are doing pretty well, especially considering Lost Ark is still probably one of the more popular MMOs in South Korea right now.

Or if we want to use 2015 as a start year Black Desert Online is another one, and Albion Online is adequately successful in its sphere of interest. I'm curious to know what criteria you use to determine "great"? Objectively there have been more than enough MMORPGs that are good/great to occupy people's time and interest, even if you personally don't like them. Like I can't stomach ESO, I wouldn't say its a bad MMORPG, though. You can have whatever opinion you want as to the quality of any one particular MMORPG, that doesn't mean it is universally terrible.

GW2, from my perspective, no longer fulfills the criteria that would keep me playing it. It isn't just about how vehemently I disagree with ANet's handling of the game, its multiple things that just make me uninterested in giving a damn about the game despite my 15~ years with the franchise as a whole starting with GW1, but that won't stop me from recommending it to someone who might be looking for an MMORPG where they won't have to worry about literally anything ever. That, to me, is a pro and a con to it but its also why I don't want to come back to it and why in my opinion GW2 probably has the worst player retention out of the other MMORPGs that it is compared to, even including BDO.

So like I said before, these days you just have to try and find where you fit, take a hard look at what you actually want out of an MMORPG and try to find something and ultimately if you can't find it then you may want to consider that maybe MMORPGs just aren't your thing, at least for right now. Might need to just take a break until other MMOs release/are ported to our region, which there are several coming this year so you won't have to wait too long.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@"avey.4201" said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

I mean considering they are out and have been out just not in
our
region; Lost Ark, Elyon. I'd say those are doing pretty well, especially considering Lost Ark is still probably one of the more popular MMOs in South Korea right now.

Or if we want to use 2015 as a start year Black Desert Online is another one, and Albion Online is adequately successful in its sphere of interest. I'm curious to know what criteria you use to determine "great"? Objectively there have been more than enough MMORPGs that are good/great to occupy people's time and interest, even if you personally don't like them. Like I can't stomach ESO, I wouldn't say its a
bad
MMORPG, though. You can have whatever opinion you want as to the quality of any one particular MMORPG, that doesn't mean it is universally terrible.

GW2, from my perspective, no longer fulfills the criteria that would keep me playing it. It isn't just about how vehemently I disagree with ANet's handling of the game, its multiple things that just make me uninterested in giving a kitten about the game despite my 15~ years with the franchise as a whole starting with GW1, but that won't stop me from recommending it to someone who might be looking for an MMORPG where they won't have to worry about literally anything
ever
. That, to me, is a pro
and
a con to it but its also why I don't want to come back to it and why in my opinion GW2 probably has the worst player retention out of the other MMORPGs that it is compared to, even including BDO.

So like I said before, these days you just have to try and find where you fit, take a hard look at what you actually want out of an MMORPG and try to find something and ultimately if you can't find it then you may want to consider that maybe MMORPGs just aren't your thing, at least for right now. Might need to just take a break until other MMOs release/are ported to our region, which there are several coming this year so you won't have to wait too long.

My point is the big mmos are the same mmos that were released a decade or close to a decade ago. All the popular big mmos have been out for many yrs and non of the resent ones have been able to stack up. Its been said many times by many content creators that its hard to creat new content cuz all the popular mmos are ones that have been around for so long. A new mmo that actually competes with the big three being wow, gw2 and ff14 needs to happen.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@"avey.4201" said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

I mean considering they are out and have been out just not in
our
region; Lost Ark, Elyon. I'd say those are doing pretty well, especially considering Lost Ark is still probably one of the more popular MMOs in South Korea right now.

Or if we want to use 2015 as a start year Black Desert Online is another one, and Albion Online is adequately successful in its sphere of interest. I'm curious to know what criteria you use to determine "great"? Objectively there have been more than enough MMORPGs that are good/great to occupy people's time and interest, even if you personally don't like them. Like I can't stomach ESO, I wouldn't say its a
bad
MMORPG, though. You can have whatever opinion you want as to the quality of any one particular MMORPG, that doesn't mean it is universally terrible.

GW2, from my perspective, no longer fulfills the criteria that would keep me playing it. It isn't just about how vehemently I disagree with ANet's handling of the game, its multiple things that just make me uninterested in giving a kitten about the game despite my 15~ years with the franchise as a whole starting with GW1, but that won't stop me from recommending it to someone who might be looking for an MMORPG where they won't have to worry about literally anything
ever
. That, to me, is a pro
and
a con to it but its also why I don't want to come back to it and why in my opinion GW2 probably has the worst player retention out of the other MMORPGs that it is compared to, even including BDO.

So like I said before, these days you just have to try and find where you fit, take a hard look at what you actually want out of an MMORPG and try to find something and ultimately if you can't find it then you may want to consider that maybe MMORPGs just aren't your thing, at least for right now. Might need to just take a break until other MMOs release/are ported to our region, which there are several coming this year so you won't have to wait too long.

My point is the big mmos are the same mmos that were released a decade or close to a decade ago. All the popular big mmos have been out for many yrs and non of the resent ones have been able to stack up. Its been said many times by many content creators that its hard to creat new content cuz all the popular mmos are ones that have been around for so long. A new mmo that actually competes with the big three being wow, gw2 and ff14 needs to happen.

A new mmo is something not many hope to pull off and compete in the current world of online gaming. Most likely lost in the Amazon of failed mmos.

OR, perhaps a pantheon of mmo enthusiasts can revive the classic mmo....

lol, maybe something cool will happen this coming end of summer, beginning of fall

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@"avey.4201" said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

I mean considering they are out and have been out just not in
our
region; Lost Ark, Elyon. I'd say those are doing pretty well, especially considering Lost Ark is still probably one of the more popular MMOs in South Korea right now.

Or if we want to use 2015 as a start year Black Desert Online is another one, and Albion Online is adequately successful in its sphere of interest. I'm curious to know what criteria you use to determine "great"? Objectively there have been more than enough MMORPGs that are good/great to occupy people's time and interest, even if you personally don't like them. Like I can't stomach ESO, I wouldn't say its a
bad
MMORPG, though. You can have whatever opinion you want as to the quality of any one particular MMORPG, that doesn't mean it is universally terrible.

GW2, from my perspective, no longer fulfills the criteria that would keep me playing it. It isn't just about how vehemently I disagree with ANet's handling of the game, its multiple things that just make me uninterested in giving a kitten about the game despite my 15~ years with the franchise as a whole starting with GW1, but that won't stop me from recommending it to someone who might be looking for an MMORPG where they won't have to worry about literally anything
ever
. That, to me, is a pro
and
a con to it but its also why I don't want to come back to it and why in my opinion GW2 probably has the worst player retention out of the other MMORPGs that it is compared to, even including BDO.

So like I said before, these days you just have to try and find where you fit, take a hard look at what you actually want out of an MMORPG and try to find something and ultimately if you can't find it then you may want to consider that maybe MMORPGs just aren't your thing, at least for right now. Might need to just take a break until other MMOs release/are ported to our region, which there are several coming this year so you won't have to wait too long.

My point is the big mmos are the same mmos that were released a decade or close to a decade ago. All the popular big mmos have been out for many yrs and non of the resent ones have been able to stack up. Its been said many times by many content creators that its hard to creat new content cuz all the popular mmos are ones that have been around for so long. A new mmo that actually competes with the big three being wow, gw2 and ff14 needs to happen.

A
new
mmo is something not many hope to pull off and compete in the current
world
of online gaming. Most likely lost in the
Amazon
of failed mmos.

OR
, perhaps a
pantheon
of mmo enthusiasts can revive the classic mmo....

lol, maybe something cool will happen this coming end of summer, beginning of fall

Lost Ark Western release.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Shao.7236" said:And on the other side you have players if not many top 10 that says GW2 has the best combat no matter the balance. It's okay, it ain't for you. You can go back to whatever makes you happier.

The point isn't about the combat, yes GW2 has a very good combat system...however it is horribly underutilized and ANet has done a poor job of handling it from a balance and PvP perspective. Even PvE as well; Open World PvE in GW2 is the most braindead of braindead gameplay you can get out of an MMORPG, even compared to tab target ones and the significantly grindy ones. BDO for example, big time grind in that game, spend
hours
in a rotation of the same mobs and yet you still have to hit more buttons doing that open world PvE than you do in GW2 open world PvE and yet GW2 has "the best combat".

Point is...they could do better, they just apparently refuse to.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Between the shoddy glicko matchmaking system, the bots, the community toxicity, I cannot fathom why people still continue to play this at all, even for fun. I left this sinking ship at august of last year and never looked back.

My point is this:
It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, folks. It ain't getting better, it's time to move on.
If people want pvp, they go to the older mmorpg titles .

Well from all of the mmorpgs on the market which I have tried , gw2 has the best pvp in my opinion. Thats why i play it and i believe many other people too...

If you dont like it , i think nobody forces you to play it...

To any new players which happens to read this, dont trust any sorce like this (including me) just try it by your self and make your own judgement.

If what you say is true then...that is just SAD. If
this
is the best pvp that mmorpgs can offer, then just stick a fork in it. Wrap it up. Move on. Also, you say "don't trust any source like this (including me)" but then yet advise to "try it by yourself and make your own judgement". So which is it?...

Personally, I would rather be _direct_when I make a case to new players. To me it's take my argument as is or leave it. Simple as that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:When players say Gw2 has the best combat, best pvp...this is all I hear

And goodness gracious....that man needs a therapist...

To be fair its one of the best yeah but of a dying and stale genre. mmo's just aren't as popular as they once were, course the fact there hasn't been a lot of new ones and a lot of modern ones that did release failed hard. A lot of players have just moved on to other genres.

Considering all of the MMORPGs releasing this year and likely next, if there are people who still say that its a dead genre or there are no MMORPGs to play then the genre isn't the problem;
they
are. Not to mention people just get horrendously unrealistic expectations for MMORPGs, any game really, and that tends to drive a big drop in population early into any MMORPGs life. They either want it to be something that it isn't, or they cook up some idea in their head about what it will have or be (based on no factual information) and that ends up not being true so they end up disappointed.

Lets see how Elyon, Sword of Legends Online, Lost Ark and New World go. Not to mention WoW TBC Classic is launching likely in the coming months so that is another thing to look forward to, along with FFXIV Endwalker expansion. Really not a shortage of MMOs to play, especially not after all of those things release.

@ellesee.8297 said:Gw2 has the best pvp system: no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked, and it has great combat. Just need a real pvp game mode now like arenas.

Lost Ark will be having a word with you later this year.

@"avey.4201" said:gw2 has a platformer style character system with skill based attacks so it is the best you can get, but the balance is on the level of intentionally sabotaged.

Like above, Lost Ark might end up being a replacement here.

For context on both those comments, Lost Ark has a system for its Arena PvP where your gear is literally irrelevant. The only thing you need is to have your weapons equipped and you can allocate your stat points where you want them through a UI window. So if ones criteria for a good PvP system is no gear grind, no level grind, everything unlocked and has a great combat system...Lost Ark sorta checks all those boxes.

Well ur right there are some possible good mmos on the horizon and alot have released over the last yrs but prob is most flop or are not nearly as good as expected and end up dead fairly fast, I should said tho mmo genre of good mmos is dying haha

Thats still a very subjective assertion, though. I'd argue that FFXIV is a great MMO, just don't play it for PvP. WoW is a great MMO, but people here have a severe aversion to gear treadmill MMOs but its a good MMO if you want decent PvE and PvP and a
lot
of cosmetic collecting. GW2, as much as I may have a very negative bias towards it these days, is a great MMO if you are an extremely casual player. No gear to worry about, but definitely on the lower end of the PvE difficulty compared to other MMOs.

You just gotta find where you fit, and sometimes you may have to come to the conclusion that maybe you just don't fit with MMOs anymore if literally none of the current ones are satisfying to you.

Yeah so what ur saying is all the great mmos are how old, how many mmos released within last 5 yrs been great?

I mean considering they are out and have been out just not in
our
region; Lost Ark, Elyon. I'd say those are doing pretty well, especially considering Lost Ark is still probably one of the more popular MMOs in South Korea right now.

Or if we want to use 2015 as a start year Black Desert Online is another one, and Albion Online is adequately successful in its sphere of interest. I'm curious to know what criteria you use to determine "great"? Objectively there have been more than enough MMORPGs that are good/great to occupy people's time and interest, even if you personally don't like them. Like I can't stomach ESO, I wouldn't say its a
bad
MMORPG, though. You can have whatever opinion you want as to the quality of any one particular MMORPG, that doesn't mean it is universally terrible.

GW2, from my perspective, no longer fulfills the criteria that would keep me playing it. It isn't just about how vehemently I disagree with ANet's handling of the game, its multiple things that just make me uninterested in giving a kitten about the game despite my 15~ years with the franchise as a whole starting with GW1, but that won't stop me from recommending it to someone who might be looking for an MMORPG where they won't have to worry about literally anything
ever
. That, to me, is a pro
and
a con to it but its also why I don't want to come back to it and why in my opinion GW2 probably has the worst player retention out of the other MMORPGs that it is compared to, even including BDO.

So like I said before, these days you just have to try and find where you fit, take a hard look at what you actually want out of an MMORPG and try to find something and ultimately if you can't find it then you may want to consider that maybe MMORPGs just aren't your thing, at least for right now. Might need to just take a break until other MMOs release/are ported to our region, which there are several coming this year so you won't have to wait too long.

My point is the big mmos are the same mmos that were released a decade or close to a decade ago. All the popular big mmos have been out for many yrs and non of the resent ones have been able to stack up. Its been said many times by many content creators that its hard to creat new content cuz all the popular mmos are ones that have been around for so long. A new mmo that actually competes with the big three being wow, gw2 and ff14 needs to happen.

But waiting and waiting and assuming any will specifically match WoW and FFXIV shouldn't be the goal. Not only do both of those MMOs have brand recognition purely due to their names, but they are fairly easily accessible as well as being pretty content rich despite the misgivings of either of their communities in regards to such. Thats like the many years people were trying to wait around for the next WoW killer, and then the next one and the next one and the next one. Never happened. WoW and FFXIV do have competition within the genre, but I can imagine that its difficult to see due to not only all of the marketing both of them do, but also the playerbase that they retain over all other MMORPGs. There is a reason WoW continues to put out the content that it does, there is a reason FFXIV continues to as well. If they slack off or don't change with the times, as they both have a few times over, then they'd get overtaken by other games. Why do you think WoW had that visual update to character models and otherwise during the WoD expansion? Why do you think FFXIV is considering its own visual overhaul in the coming years? Why do you think they constantly add new systems, new methods of gameplay, new mechanics, new classes, raids, dungeons, etc,etc? Because if they don't people don't play and they go elsewhere, which should all be very obvious. ESO does the same thing, BDO as well, even TERA at the very least still releases new classes sometimes. Know the only MMORPG you listed in the "big three" that does none of those things and has terrible player retention because of it? wink

Point being, like I said before, try to find something that you enjoy and play that. Or play multiple MMOs, or cycle between them depending on whatever you're in the mood for. There is competition in the genre, people just need to stop having unrealistic expectations out of these coming MMORPGs and take them as they are rather than expect them to "kill" any particular MMO like WoW or BDO (like people thought Bless Online would do) or whatever. You think Lost Ark looks cool? Play that. Enjoy it. Don't expect it to "kill" anything or replace anything or overtake anything. We live in a time of options, take your pick.

@mistsim.2748 said:

Lost Ark Western release.

Also this. Yes. Gimme.

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