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Sylvari Immunity [spoilers ahead]

castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited September 13, 2017 in Lore

As I recall, sylvari have been known to be immune to Zhaitan's corruption in vanilla gw2 and there were no sylvari risen to see. Then season 2 and heart of thorns revealed how the sylvari were actually minions of mordremoth and that they can, in turn, be corrupted by mordremoth because a piece of lore revealed sylvari and the Pale Tree were actually purified mordrem (forgive me for not remembering where that lore came from).

Now, in season 3, we learned that Primordus and Jormag have absorbed some of the plant and death domains that were released upon the death of their relative elder dragons. Does that now mean that the threat of dragon corruption is a continuous threat for all sylvari, considering Mordremoth's domain has been absorbed by at least two elder dragons? Maybe Primordus won't corrupt sylvari since I recently read that it wants to destroy all life, but wouldn't other elder dragon's maybe see the ability to corrupt or convert another elder dragon's minions as a valuable asset in their race for magic consumption?

I know this is tangential to anything Path of Fire related, and good ol' crystal face was farther out than possibly Jormag even was, making planty/deathy branded an unlikely possibility (or as rare as the abomination we fought in Bitterfrost Frontier) but it seems like a huge question in relation to one of the playable races that no one has really addressed (or that I'm aware of). If Mordy's domain wasn't absorbed by Kralk or Bubbles, then it seems like a non-pressing issue considering the two confirmed ED's who had that influence are taking a nap for the moment and the topic can, I guess, wait to be answered.

Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

Comments

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wow, I'd never thought about that before.

    I think it's unlikely Primordius would corrupt them since as far as we know it doesn't corrupt anything - it makes minions from scratch (or rather from lava). But Jormag is a definite possibility and it's possible Kralkatorrik could too since we don't know at the moment if he was too far away to absorb any of Mordremoth's magic or if we simply haven't encountered plant/crystal minions. (Remember we had to go looking for Jormag's ones.)

    If I was a sylvari I think I'd take the approach of assuming I can be corrupted and therefore taking precaution's to avoid it until I know for sure. But hopefully it's something we will see addressed.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Ironically, the Dream is also how Mordremoth turns sylvari (Note: He does NOT corrupt them - at least not in the "dragon corruption" sense; what he does seems to be whispering thoughts designed to seem like the sylvari's own thoughts so those who ever had doubts or malicious thoughts would turn to Mordremoth, believing these to be their own rather than Mordremoth's). Basically, what Mordremoth does to sylvari during HoT is a more traditional brainwashing / hypnotizing ideal. Bombard an individual with thoughts, convincing them those thoughts are their own, so that they follow you willingly. Those who resisted realized the thoughts belonged to Mordremoth - or were so sure of themselves, like Occam, that they knew the thoughts to be not their own, even if they didn't know it was Mordremoth's.

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    Pretty much this. I'd note that Edge of Destiny it's implied that Glint retains some ability to feel what Kralkatorrik is up to, which could indicate that even 'cleansed' minions and champions are still connected to their former master. Glint, being possibly the most powerful user of mind-magic behind Mordremoth and Lyssa, isn't at much risk of being influenced through that link. For the sylvari, though, it essentially gave Mordremoth a back door into their minds that he could use to brainwash them. The Mordrem Guard certainly did not appear to be corrupted in the same way that regular minions were.

    Whether another dragon could potentially pick up the ability to use that link... I'm not sure. It might have been completely specific to Mordremoth, and now that Mordremoth is dead, the link is gone: even if another Elder Dragon of Plants and Mind does arise, it still won't be the one that created the Blighting Trees and, ultimately, the sylvari. Alternatively, it's possible that just having the right combination of domains is enough: being products of plant magic, it might be that plant magic allows direct influence over sylvari in general, and if you combine it with mind this allows for what Mordremoth did.

  • The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

    So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:
    The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

    So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

    That's a valid point. It's possible that sylvari being cleansed will mean that they're immune to having this done, or that it could be done but the dragon that does it might find they have no control over the sylvari risen that are created. But it could be that combining plants and death would allow for the effect you hypothesise.

    (Note that it's likely that Kralkatorrik didn't get much "Mordy juice" due to distance, but I guess we'll find that out when we meet the new Branded in Elona.)

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I guess I keep making that mistake between sylvari being corrupted by mordremoth and being turned (it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around it but I'm getting there I think). But also, if it is possible for sylvari cut from the dream (or dead sylvari) to be turned, I'd hope that's answered.

    A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

    It also seems weird that the two domains aren't explicitly tied together, but i guess that's some metaphysical/metamagical phenomenon that could be explained away. As a whole though it seems traditional corruption of at least living sylvari who have a connection to the dream isn't possible (and thus that specific threat over sylvari players heads is non-existent).

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:
    The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

    So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

    In Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn - a champion of Jormag - corrupts a norn corpse. What Kralkatorrik tends to corrupt is what he can physically reach; while what Jormag tends to corrupt is those willing to serve him. However, both - like all other Elder Dragons - seem capable of corrupting all things equally. Even Zhaitan corrupts living and plants.

    Presumably, sylvari are connected to the Dream even when dead. This wouldn't be too surprising, since there are multiple graves of sylvari that have held altered plants or are more directly tied to the Dream (Riannoc's for the latter, Killeen's and Fyonna's (or w/e that Secondborn's name is) for the former).

    Alternatively, there is one potential idea - the notion that Mordremoth's plant domain and Zhaitan's death domain are opposites are brought up twice in Season 3, first in the Unstable Abomination icebrood, and second in sylvari dialogue in Siren's Landing. In the latter, the sylvari liken Mordremoth's domain not to plants, but to life. Taking this idea, one could argue the reason why even sylvari corpses couldn't be corrupted by Zhaitan is because there's an incapability between the domains - like with Jormag's and Primordus' domains being opposites. Of course, this then puts the idea from the Rata Novans that every Elder Dragon has one specific weakness as complete BS.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

    It also seems weird that the two domains aren't explicitly tied together, but i guess that's some metaphysical/metamagical phenomenon that could be explained away. As a whole though it seems traditional corruption of at least living sylvari who have a connection to the dream isn't possible (and thus that specific threat over sylvari players heads is non-existent).

    Nothing says it outright, but we see neither shadow nor mind being utilized by Primordus or the Unstable Abomination, which means at the very least Primordus and Jormag didn't seem to take these secondary domains.

    There could be multiple reasons - the domains weren't in what was absorbed being one, another being that they did take them but do not utilize them in manner we can see, or third possibility is that like the Six Gods' domains, only the primary domain/title is transferred between predecessor and successor.

    Aurene does seem to use illusions and telepathy, but this was even from her being an egg (see vision during City of Hope mission). I think that this is because Aurene "corrupted" us a bit, during the Prized Possession mission, and all dragon minions have a hive mind with their master. Thus explaining why only we could see that phantasmal Aurene projection.

    Yup, the Pact Commander is a slave to Aurene.

    Pact Commander: I'm at Aurene's disposal.

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  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Nothing says it outright, but we see neither shadow nor mind being utilized by Primordus or the Unstable Abomination, which means at the very least Primordus and Jormag didn't seem to take these secondary domains.

    There could be multiple reasons - the domains weren't in what was absorbed being one, another being that they did take them but do not utilize them in manner we can see, or third possibility is that like the Six Gods' domains, only the primary domain/title is transferred between predecessor and successor.

    I'd imagine the second to be most likely, but the third I doubt, considering Water was Abaddon's second domain, which presumably Kormir obtained upon usurping him and then hot potatoed it to Lyssa, who (as far as we know) still retains dominion over it. The domain of water didn't simply dissipate into nothingness. In fact wouldn't that be evidence that secondary domains can be transferred to another? But also, we're in unprecedented territory, in that no single domain was transferred to multiple gods because a successor did not take up the mantle, and while I do agree with the theory that the six and the elder dragons have similar roles as cosmic entities, it doesn't seem that this sort of thing has played out (the one case it might have was narrowly avoided and would have ended up more catastrophic than the death of a single elder dragon) and thus we don't really have a relative case to pull from.

    Aurene does seem to use illusions and telepathy, but this was even from her being an egg (see vision during City of Hope mission). I think that this is because Aurene "corrupted" us a bit, during the Prized Possession mission, and all dragon minions have a hive mind with their master. Thus explaining why only we could see that phantasmal Aurene projection.

    Yup, the Pact Commander is a slave to Aurene.

    Pact Commander: I'm at Aurene's disposal.

    This made me laugh, thank you for that.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Abaddon's primary domain was not water, but knowledge. And that went to Kormir while the secondary domains changed about (Spirit that could be linked to Dwayna before NF went to Kormir, while Water from Abaddon went to Lyssa). Lyssa never took anything from Abaddon - all of Abaddon's power went to Kormir and Kormir alone. Similarly, Kormir took up Order and Spirit out of thin air. Just as Dhuum and Grenth share the domain of Death, but Dhuum never touched the idea of ice (which Grenth had before even becoming a full fledged god) - Grenth took up the domain of Ice out of thin air.

    In the case of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, the primary domains are death and plant. It is possible that the domains of shadow and mind need not be taken over by anyone, or could be usurped by anyone with their death without taking in magic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Abaddon's primary domain was not water, but knowledge. And that went to Kormir while the secondary domains changed about (Spirit that could be linked to Dwayna before NF went to Kormir, while Water from Abaddon went to Lyssa). Lyssa never took anything from Abaddon - all of Abaddon's power went to Kormir and Kormir alone. Similarly, Kormir took up Order and Spirit out of thin air. Just as Dhuum and Grenth share the domain of Death, but Dhuum never touched the idea of ice (which Grenth had before even becoming a full fledged god) - Grenth took up the domain of Ice out of thin air.

    In the case of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, the primary domains are death and plant. It is possible that the domains of shadow and mind need not be taken over by anyone, or could be usurped by anyone with their death without taking in magic.

    I didn't intend on saying water was Abaddon's primary domain (hence the words 'second domain') nor that Lyssa took anything straight from Abaddon (hence the hot potatoing of water from Kormir to Lyssa), as the comment was attempting to point out that it was the secondary domains that were being tossed around (water from Abaddon to potentially Kormir because of her taking Abaddon's place and then Lyssa being confirmed to hold domain over water), not the primary domains and that the same could potentially be done for Mordremoth's secondary domain, 'mind'. Though with Grenth taking up the domain of ice before becoming one of the six and the rest of your comment, it could indeed be that secondary domains don't need to be maintained.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would be worth to note that neither Primordius nor Jormag have corrupted Risen or Mordrem, they have imbued Their Own Minions
    with the magic of said dead elder dragons. Whether it's impossible or too cost intensive for an ED to corrupt another dragon's minions I don't know,
    but it's clear one minion will never be corrupted by another ED, but at best killed to have their essences absorbed for private use.

    There may be exceptions, or rather, roundabout ways, for example, I can imagine Kralkatorrik branding some creatures, as Kralkatorrik has shown able
    to brand creatures such as elementals. But I think in such a case there's still the point of "is it worth it" since it costs more energy than creating a new
    minion of your own, and ED's only care about optimal, and quantitive magic consumption, they will not quickly take a cost intensive way unless it's
    necessary or VERY rewarding in the long run.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think that there just hasnt been enough time for a non-Primordus elder dragon to gain a close enough distance to either mordrem or risen since the deaths of both Zhaitan and Mordremoth, not that they are unwilling. Primordus creates it's own minions and does not corrupt living things and as such wouldn't make use of mordrem or risen despite it's proximity to both, but we don't have evidence to state that the other elder dragons, who now have the domains of plant/life and death, are unable or unwilling to use already made minions of those domains. I'd figure that simply having access to the domains would give access to those minions within a certain proximity, and why 'waste' resources that you can cheaply obtain if you can seize control of it (though you are arguing that it wouldn't be 'cheap' to obtain since it probably would require a secondary corruption, which I am taking note of).

    To me, it just seems to make sense that the elder dragons now have the keys to these two cars, they just need to be close enough to start the engines, but as far as I know there really just isn't any lore to dictate how it would go one way or the other with regards to usurping control over now masterless dragon minions (i'm sure Drax and Konig are far more informed than I am and may have an answer, theoretical or otherwise).

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • I would agree on the "not enough time" but expand it to more of "not in the right location". While risen did have a presence on the Ring of Fire Islands during Zhaitan's reign, we see none in Season 3. This would imply either we do not go where the risen went, or perhaps more likely the risen were recalled during the assault on Orr or had wandered off without orders from their master. And there was never a mordrem presence there - nor anywhere inbetween the Ring of Fire and Frostgorge Sound.

    Jormag was never close to either mordrem or risen to have the chance.

    Kralkatorrik, however, went right through where a large presence of risen had been during Zhaitan's reign: Elona's northern border. So unless ArenaNet would say "it's been 5 years, they're gone and dead" or decide to retcon that bit of lore from The Movement as well, then we could in theory see branded risen.

    I doubt they considered that though.

    As for the idea that "the elder dragons now have the keys to these two cars, they just need to be close enough to start the engines" - this is not entirely accurate. Keep in mind that dragon minions are more than just the domain. The domain determined the form of the minions - rotten, crystalline, icy, etc. - but every dragon minion 'type' is part of its own hive mind that is attached for the related Elder Dragon as its nexus. Even after Zhaitan's death, in Arah explorable, risen continued to act as if Zhaitan were alive - it was only until Siren's Landing that we see now the mindless minions are capable of being tamed or like animals but still lashing out at any nearby, while the more intelligent ones are able to think on their own (but apparently continue to chose to serve Zhaitan's will even in its death) and can even bring the other risen under their wings (be that figurative or literal).

    And that makes the situation of risen and mordrem really interesting and I really wanted Season 3 to go more in-depth with it, particularly related to the Mordrem Guard. Dragon corruption removes the will of the individual, enslaving them to the Elder Dragon; but Mordremoth turned sylvari through whispers rather than corruption. Because of this, Mordrem Guard could always theoretically turn back (particularly if separated from Mordremoth's whispers - see Buried Insight side achievement/conversation), while normal mordrem and risen (as well as any other dragon minion) could not. But now we learn that with the Elder Dragon's death, the minions regain their free will just as a purification ritual would give... but like Glint initially, they continue to serve their dragon. What this means is that with an Elder Dragon's death, the proverbial "power of love and friendship" which we have always been told is useless against dragon minions (and is why the idea of Ventari or Ronan being the ones to purify the Pale Tree, or Mawdrey's description of being tamed by the adventurer, is misleading if not outright contradictory to lore), now is no longer useless. One COULD turn a post-Zhaitan's death risen back to the side of good through conversation and coming to understanding - and same goes for mordrem. So long as they have intelligence; and if they don't, then they can be tamed like wild animals (as we see with that gargantuan grub event).

    Which means, while the notion of things like Joko taking over the risen was ridiculous before, with Episode 6, it becomes completely feasible... just not in the way people imagined.

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  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I know this discussion has gone tangential to the original post, but as the OP, this is a fascinating conversation and I hope moderators don't stop the conversation for going off topic.

    I had figured that the hive mind was kind of the car and the elder dragons could just hop into the seat and drive the hive mind to their goals, but that LOYALTY aspect is super fascinating, I have to do that Buried Insight achievement now.

    I hope this will be explored in the future, the whole 'what now' with the risen and mordrem, the domains of death and plant/life being absorbed by the remaining elder dragons and possibly Aurene (or even Gleam if he still lives), the fate of the mind and shadow domains, what happens if another rises to take the place of Zhaitan or Mordremoth and specifically gain full control of their domains.

    I hope this is explored tangentially with non-ED content. I'm excited for what the future holds.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One observation that's coming to mind in this discussion is that while we've seen examples of minions corrupted by multiple energies (Inquest experiments and the new Destroyers) we haven't seen any evidence that doing so changes their allegiances. The Inquest experiments were either in the control of the Inquest or not, and the new Destroyers, obviously, remained under Primordus' control.

    So it is possible that while multi-corruption is possible, the 'forced loyalty' aspect only triggers once. So while Zhaitan (or some other Elder Dragon) could theoretically corrupt a sylvari, there'd be no benefit to it because the sylvari was already claimed by Mordremoth (and that claim then broken through whatever means allowed the Pale Tree to be independent). Similarly, it might be entirely possible for, say, Kralkatorrik to Brand a Destroyer, but the result would be that Primordus gets a Destroyer with Branded abilities as well, not that Kralkatorrik claims the Destroyer for himself. So Kralkatorrik has no incentive to Brand a Destroyer even if he has the opportunity.

    (The Inquest, on the other hand, is already usurping control, so they don't care which dragon the minion would be loyal to without that usurpation.)

    This might actually explain what we're told about the sylvari. The general impression we have is that sylvari were immune - but there is the odd line here and there which indicates that the sylvari can be corrupted by dragons, it's just that to sylvari it's fatal rather than converting them into a minion. Which would result in situations where, for instance, champions of Zhaitan might corrupt sylvari in order to kill them, but does not take that extra step of reanimating them, as the result would just be an undead sylvari that still had the exact same loyalties and goals that they had in life.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:
    The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

    So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

    The remaining dragon's don't gain the minion-raising abilities of the dead dragons, they just gain their magic. Dragons won't just suddenly start raising the dead like Zhaitan or create plant life like Mordremoth. We saw this with Mordy in HoT; he could use death magic to create plant-based clones of living and dead creatures, in addition to making standard Mordrem, but he couldn't raise the dead.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

    Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

    As for why Sylvari were immune, it's because they were dragon minions, one dragon cannot claim/corrupt/control the minions of the other dragons.

    About the mind realm, there's a hint about Jormag having access to mind powers. During the Braham mission where we recover the burning scroll, Rox is trapped in ice and after she's freed, she says she was having a dream/hallucination about being on a beach (iirc).

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    In Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn - a champion of Jormag - corrupts a norn corpse. What Kralkatorrik tends to corrupt is what he can physically reach; while what Jormag tends to corrupt is those willing to serve him. However, both - like all other Elder Dragons - seem capable of corrupting all things equally. Even Zhaitan corrupts living and plants.

    Actually, there's the exception of Primordus, who doesn't corrupt, but creates his minions from inanimate matter. I guess you could say he corrupts minerals.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

    We've seen, through the side achievement of the Rata Novus instance that Konig referred to, that turned sylvari do not have the same behaviour as dragon minions normally do. Typically, a dragon minion retains its loyalties to their dragon even when isolated from the dragon. The sylvari in the achievement, however, was able to regain his own mind when isolated from Mordremoth, and only Canach's pushing of him to reconnect with Mordremoth caused him to revert to Mordremoth's control.

    Classical dragon minions have a hard switch thrown deep in their psyche - they are loyal to their Elder Dragon above all other loyalties. What Mordremoth did to the sylvari was a more surface-level form of mind control by bombarding them with his wishes until they couldn't tell the difference between his thoughts and their own.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

    We've seen, through the side achievement of the Rata Novus instance that Konig referred to, that turned sylvari do not have the same behaviour as dragon minions normally do. Typically, a dragon minion retains its loyalties to their dragon even when isolated from the dragon. The sylvari in the achievement, however, was able to regain his own mind when isolated from Mordremoth, and only Canach's pushing of him to reconnect with Mordremoth caused him to revert to Mordremoth's control.

    That's because Sylvari have the backup of the Pale Tree. They can reconnect to the uncorrupted part of the Dream the Sylvari share and regain their free will. They had a life before joining Mordremoth, so they are different from the rest of the dragon minions that begin their life under the contol of a dragon.

    In the last episode, we saw Zhaitan's undead that are no longer the blind followers they used to be, as there's no dragon to command them anymore, but they just don't have any other choice. All they knew was serving Zhaitan and killing in his name, and they just continue out of habit. Still, we almost reasoned with one of them.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

    We've seen, through the side achievement of the Rata Novus instance that Konig referred to, that turned sylvari do not have the same behaviour as dragon minions normally do. Typically, a dragon minion retains its loyalties to their dragon even when isolated from the dragon. The sylvari in the achievement, however, was able to regain his own mind when isolated from Mordremoth, and only Canach's pushing of him to reconnect with Mordremoth caused him to revert to Mordremoth's control.

    That's because Sylvari have the backup of the Pale Tree. They can reconnect to the uncorrupted part of the Dream the Sylvari share and regain their free will. They had a life before joining Mordremoth, so they are different from the rest of the dragon minions that begin their life under the contol of a dragon.

    Eve then, we saw Zhaitan's undead in the last episode that we are not exactly loyal to Zhaitan (compared to the blind followers they used to be), but they didn't have any other choice. All they knew was serving Zhaitan and killing in his name, and they just continue out of habit. We almost reasned with one of them.

    The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

    Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

    Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

    I ddin't mean reconnecting to Pale Tree as a deliberate effort, or that the connection is broken and has to be re-established, but the very fact there's a part of the Dream that's protected from Mordremoth is because the Pale Tree maintains it. That the Sylvari have an option outside of blindly following Mordy is thanks to the Pale Tree. Sylvari are born with a sense of self, a purpose, and the sum of knowledge gained from their race over the years. Their very consciousness is connected to the Dream. It's all that that offsets Mordremoth's call, how our PC sylvari were able to resist, so that's why I mean by saying Sylvari have an option other than being slaves, thanks to the Pale Tree.

    Really, what that sylvari in Rata Novus proved is what I said above, that Mordremoth does not corrupt Sylvari, but reclaims them. They don't gravitate between being dragon minions and not being dragon minions, but between hearing their dragon's command and having their own thought in the safe space provided by the Pale Tree.

    So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are created by their dragons, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

    Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

    I ddin't mean reconnecting to Pale Tree as a deliberate effort, or that the connection is broken and has to be re-established, but the very fact there's a part of the Dream that's protected from Mordremoth is because the Pale Tree maintains it. That the Sylvari have an option outside of blindly following Mordy is thanks to the Pale Tree. Sylvari are born with a sense of self, a purpose, and the sum of knowledge gained from their race over the years. Their very consciousness is connected to the Dream. It's how our PC sylvari were able to resist, so that's why I mean by saying Sylvari have an option other than being slaves, thanks to the Pale Tree.

    Really, what that sylvari in Rata Novus proved is what I said above, that Mordremoth does not corrupt Sylvari, but reclaims them. They don't gravitate between being dragon minions and not being dragon minions, they are always dragon minions that either hear and follow their dragon's command or cover their ears and have their own thoughts in the safe space provided by the Pale Tree. It's just that the Pale Tree covered their ears for them all those years.

    So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are given life directly by their dragon, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not created. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    The remaining dragon's don't gain the minion-raising abilities of the dead dragons, they just gain their magic. Dragons won't just suddenly start raising the dead like Zhaitan or create plant life like Mordremoth. We saw this with Mordy in HoT; he could use death magic to create plant-based clones of living and dead creatures, in addition to making standard Mordrem, but he couldn't raise the dead.

    I wouldn't consider Taimi correct there. The Pale Tree used the dead and living as templates as well - though as more abstract ideas like destroyers do rather than perfect copies like the Blighting Trees. With the destroyers and Unstable Abomination, we see a clearly defined case of the minions taking on a rotten appearance (Rotting Destroyer and all that) or planty appearance (Vine-Touched Destroyers having actual vines coming out of them). This indicates that taking a domain of another Elder Dragon directly alters one's own minions, and no mordrem has a rotten, deathly appearance aside from wolves, trolls, and wyverns. And about the former two:

    Furthermore, in Edge of Destiny we see a fresh icebrood with a caved in face, showing that Jormag could corrupt the dead; and Season 2 mordrem had wolves and trolls which are corrupted living (or perhaps dead) beings as well.

    This leaves just the wyvern, which may or may not be the same as the wolves and trolls.

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    As for why Sylvari were immune, it's because they were dragon minions, one dragon cannot claim/corrupt/control the minions of the other dragons.

    Except that the Pale Tree literally states that she gave protection and the HoT promotions literally state it was through the protection of the Pale Tree (see my first post in this thread). The only form the sylvari have connection to the Pale Tree is, in fact, the Dream.

    Actually, there's the exception of Primordus, who doesn't corrupt, but creates his minions from inanimate matter. I guess you could say he corrupts minerals.

    All Elder Dragons have shown capable to be able to corrupt all the same things. But they have a different preference (for lack of a better term). We were told in an interview that Primordus can indeed corrupt the living. He just chooses not to. Similarly, we see Jormag corrupt living animal, dead animal, and land; we see Kralkatorrik corrupt living animal, plant, sky, water, and land; we see Mordremoth corrupt living animal, plant, and land; we see Zhaitan corrupt living animal, dead animal, plant, sky, water, and land.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    One observation that's coming to mind in this discussion is that while we've seen examples of minions corrupted by multiple energies (Inquest experiments and the new Destroyers) we haven't seen any evidence that doing so changes their allegiances. The Inquest experiments were either in the control of the Inquest or not, and the new Destroyers, obviously, remained under Primordus' control.

    I'm not so sure of the Inquest experiments having standard affiliations. I say this because there is at least one room where we see risen, icebrood, destroyers, branded, and mordrem working together underneath Alpha's control. It's hard to say which affiliation - if any - Alpha had, but it was able to command all five dragon minion armies all the same.

    Of course, this doesn't counter your "the 'forced loyalty' aspect only triggers once" argument, as Alpha could have been exposed to all five energies at the same time.

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are created by their dragons, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

    I'm not really sure we can argue that sylvari were not corrupted beings. While we certainly do see a growth in them due to their being plants, we also see growth in other dragon minions' elements (icebrood start as mostly fleshy but slowly become ice; branded crystals are known to grow; destroyers, when corrupting the living, are said to encase the victim in rocks and slowly liquefy akin to icebrood's slow transformation).

    And rather than saying "that's because of the Pale Tree" it seems more to be an unknown happenstance that happened to the Pale Tree that allows such.

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  • About the Sylvari Dream thing:

    PC: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    PaleTree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.
    PC: Scarlet?
    PaleTree: I believe she opened herself to it when she let down the wall of her mind. Mordremoth's corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps.

    It doesn't seem from that dialogue that the corruption is used figuratively as "brainwashing" but as actual corruption as it's compared to Zhaitan's.
    If her protection were to be taken literally, wouldn't Nightmare Court recieve same treatment as Soundless because Nightmare is just a fraction (assuming it's a part of and not its own thing) of the Dream? Because I doubt Nightmare would be a form of Pale Tree's protection, as it kind of tries to fight the Dream itself?
    Since Soundless were a thing during Zhaitan wouldn't we already seen some Sylvari Risen that weren't connected to the Dream?
    Dream can't be the only reason Sylvari are/were immune to dragon corruption.

    But also.. how are Malyck and other non-Pale Tree Sylvari not just stright-up Mordremoth minions from the beginning? They never had access to Pale Tree's protection to begin with (which makes sense for the Pale Tree-native Soundless). Maybe it works with Malick specifically because he had amnesia and the first Mordrem were very Sylvari-like wimps.

    As for the undead realm: isn't every corrupted being technically undead? With Jourmag, he can just make up missing organs/body parts with ice..if not just make ice creatures altogether. But isn't Kralkatorrik's corruption the same? With crystal blocks growing out in every direction of the body I very much doubt his corrupted minions can be ever considered alive in first place. Similarly Mordremoth as Pale Tree did seemingly use humans as a base for Sylvari and in HoT Mord doesn't need the original for the copies to be alive or dead.
    It comes to me that Zhaitan just wasn't picky like the rest.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Modremoth doesn't actually "corrupt" the Sylvari as much as he returns them to their default state of being.

    When you think about it, the Pale Tree is actually the one doing the corrupting.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    About the Sylvari Dream thing:

    PC: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    PaleTree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.
    PC: Scarlet?
    PaleTree: I believe she opened herself to it when she let down the wall of her mind. Mordremoth's corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps.

    It doesn't seem from that dialogue that the corruption is used figuratively as "brainwashing" but as actual corruption as it's compared to Zhaitan's.
    If her protection were to be taken literally, wouldn't Nightmare Court recieve same treatment as Soundless because Nightmare is just a fraction (assuming it's a part of and not its own thing) of the Dream? Because I doubt Nightmare would be a form of Pale Tree's protection, as it kind of tries to fight the Dream itself?
    Since Soundless were a thing during Zhaitan wouldn't we already seen some Sylvari Risen that weren't connected to the Dream?
    Dream can't be the only reason Sylvari are/were immune to dragon corruption.

    But also.. how are Malyck and other non-Pale Tree Sylvari not just stright-up Mordremoth minions from the beginning? They never had access to Pale Tree's protection to begin with (which makes sense for the Pale Tree-native Soundless). Maybe it works with Malick specifically because he had amnesia and the first Mordrem were very Sylvari-like wimps.

    As for the undead realm: isn't every corrupted being technically undead? With Jourmag, he can just make up missing organs/body parts with ice..if not just make ice creatures altogether. But isn't Kralkatorrik's corruption the same? With crystal blocks growing out in every direction of the body I very much doubt his corrupted minions can be ever considered alive in first place. Similarly Mordremoth as Pale Tree did seemingly use humans as a base for Sylvari and in HoT Mord doesn't need the original for the copies to be alive or dead.
    It comes to me that Zhaitan just wasn't picky like the rest.

    Keep in mind that when the Pale Tree says this, she is still hiding the fact that sylvari were Mordremoth's minions. So of course she'd call it corruption rather than brainwashing. Not to mention that ArenaNet overuses the term corruption to mean political corruption (e.g., blackmailing, illegal activities), and mental corruption (e.g., brainwashing, torture, etc.) in GW2 as well as dragon corruption. In GW1 it was also used in reference to being "tainted" by Abaddon's presence whether you were still good or turned evil.

    The Nightmare is still protection against Mordremoth - and is likely lumped into "the Pale Tree's connection" because it is part of the Dream. Unlike the Soundless, the Nightmare Courtiers are still connected to the Dream - they just favor the darker parts of it (Nightmare).

    The exact reason Malyck's appearance is unknown, and was planned to be in HoT but scrapped for time and number of distractions from the "race against the clock" plot they had (we had three - Itzle/Nuhoch, Tarir/Egg, and Rata Novus/Chak - with two others - Nightmare Court and Malyck - planned but scrapped) but him not being mordrem is pretty obvious. We never learned how the Pale Tree herself was purified, and it is impossible from what we know of Ventari and Ronan for them to have done such. So she had to have been purified as a seed - thus the entire cave of seeds is likely purified as well.

    Addendum: The Tower of Nightmares also has very obvious Pale Tree relations (from producting krait-shaped sylvari, to being a living plant, to looking a bit like the Vinewrath; it was a seed provided by Scarlet too). The Tower of Nightmares is undoubtaby a "purified Blighting Tree" that was raised under poor and cruel conditions, while the Pale Tree is a "purified Blighting Tree" raised under good conditions. Malyck's Tree is undoubtably in the middle of the two.

    The reason why he wouldn't have been turned immediately is also simple: No connection to the Dream = no Mordremoth whispers; being of purified plant = not enslaved via traditional dragon corruption.

    In a way, this can also explain why the mind-altered Toxic Alliance which had obvious plant and mind related corruption to them did not go joining Mordremoth in mass (as nice of an addition to HoT as that would have been): they were not corrupted by Mordremoth, but by the freed Tower of Nightmares (just as the Crystal Spiders/Guardians in Dragon's Lair GW1 would be corruption from Glint freed from Kralkatorrik), and with no connection to the Dream they suffered no "Mordremoth's Call".

    As for your question of "isn't every corrupted being technically undead?" No. Most creatures for non-risen are corrupted while alive. They go straight from living to "elemental" in effect (though it's an elemental mixed with flesh and bone). This is more akin to constructs like the Shiro'kin which were made of metal and bone, or Blimm's Guardian golem made of any nearby body parts, rather than undead which are whole or shambling corpses animated by a necromancer or by instilling a soul to them.

    Which is part of why risen are technically not undead despite Tyrians always calling them such. They're not traditional undead for Tyria but because they're rotted and a single corpse (or in Abominations' cases, shambling corpses) and they're all animated by a powerful death magic user (Zhaitan), Tyrians compare them to traditional undead.

    The pure foundation of dragon corruption is twofold: 1) removal of free will / identity and connecting to the hive mind; 2) turning Material A into Material B (whether it's flesh and bone to rotted flesh and bone, or grass into crystal)

    Branded are outright called "mindless elementals" who have lost their former selves in the PoF trailer. So if one must relate any dragon minion to something else, it would be elementals rather than undead.

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  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2017

    But, as I said, there is no corruption involved at all. Modrem are not corrupted Sylvari in the same sense that a Branded Charr or a Son of Svanir.

    Of course the characters in the world would superficially see it as their former Sylvari friends are becoming corrupted and would refer to the process as such. Especially members of the Pact who have seen it happen with the other dragons. But that doesn't make it so.

    The Sylvari as we know them are the "corrupted" ones; the Modrem ones are the true nature of the Sylvari as intended by their creator. A Sylvari turning Modrem is, ironically, kinda the opposite of how dragons usually corrupt things.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    But, as I said, there is no corruption involved at all. Modrem are not corrupted Sylvari in the same sense that a Branded Charr or a Son of Svanir.

    Of course the characters in the world would superficially see it as their former Sylvari friends are becoming corrupted and would refer to the process as such. Especially members of the Pact who have seen it happen with the other dragons. But that doesn't make it so.

    The Sylvari as we know them are the "corrupted" ones; the Modrem ones are the true nature of the Sylvari as intended by their creator. A Sylvari turning Modrem is, ironically, kinda the opposite of how dragons usually corrupt things.

    I think I know the answer to this. If I recall correctly, on the previous forums this was addressed in the manner that Mordremoth had to have taken something, say a tree with magical fruit, and corrupted it, then molded it into a form that would provide a steady supply of mordrem. That tree, then, would have then had it's fruit used and would result in a bunch of seeds, those seeds, now, in their mordrem/dragon corrupted form, were then purified and stored in the cave, where the seed that would then turn into the Pale Tree would be found and nurtured by Ronan and Ventari, which would then have the sylvari born from it's bough.

    Considering the extent that Jormag was able to make use of a corpse and turn it into icebrood, aka taking something and molding it into something else, it's not too farfetched to assume that this may have been the case.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Makes sense, but then:

    • Why Risen Soundless Sylvari isn't a thing?
      There are plenty of Risen and Soundless in Caledon, if there was such a possibility, it should've happened or at least mentioned.
      One could say a Dragon doesn't want to corrupt other's minions but Zhaitan meant to corrupt everything he could, that's its whole theme.

    • If being connected to the Dream allows "brainwashing" how did Aerin get corrupted then?
      He was nowhere near close to be corrupted conventionally, not from Mordremoth at least.
      If he did get "brainwashed" from the Dream then the whole story of him being Soundless doesn't add up.

    • It makes sense for Scarlet being corrupted because she did unknowingly find (or was found by) Mordremoth in the Omadd's machine.

    Extra note: shouldn't Exalted have met Sylvari already? Or at very least have concern about them? They met Asurans coming from as far as from Rata Novus, while Malyck got to central Tyria. I guess that also got scrapped as well.

  • @Shirou.4862 said:

    Makes sense, but then:

    • Why Risen Soundless Sylvari isn't a thing?
      There are plenty of Risen and Soundless in Caledon, if there was such a possibility, it should've happened or at least mentioned.
      One could say a Dragon doesn't want to corrupt other's minions but Zhaitan meant to corrupt everything he could, that's its whole theme.

    • If being connected to the Dream allows "brainwashing" how did Aerin get corrupted then?
      He was nowhere near close to be corrupted conventionally, not from Mordremoth at least.
      If he did get "brainwashed" from the Dream then the whole story of him being Soundless doesn't add up.

    • It makes sense for Scarlet being corrupted because she did unknowingly find (or was found by) Mordremoth in the Omadd's machine.

      Extra note: shouldn't Exalted have met Sylvari already? Or at very least have concern about them? They met Asurans coming from as far as from Rata Novus, while Malyck got to central Tyria. I guess that also got scrapped as well.

    • Why isn't risen centaurs or dredge thing? There's many possible answers. Proximity in lore (keep in mind that lore wise the game maps should be much much larger and there is a full lake and bay separating the Soundless from risen still) and Anet not wanting to spoil the reason of the sylvari immunity are likely the reasons. I also wouldn't say zhaitan wanted to corrupt everything. After all, his corruption focused on the dead largely ignoring the living. And there are the lacking of risen centaur, dredge, largos, and skritt despite risen having conquered or being right next to those races homes or bases. Another possible explanation is the fact that Soundlessness doesn't completely cut off the Dream.
    • That I'd chalk up to ArenaNet being heavily inconsistent in their lore at points. He shows up in Festival of the Four Winds talking about sharing experiences with the Dream but suddenly come Ep 1 and 5 he was Soundless the whole time? Then there is also how Soundless still are connected just very minutely.
    • On exalted: No. The Exalted have been in hibernation after setting up Tarir quite some time before Novus fell in 1173. The first sylvari of the Pale Tree was born in 1302, Malyck in 1325. They woke up after Season 1 (1327). If Malyck in HoT wasn't scrapped then one may have met his tree. But yeah.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Why isn't risen centaurs or dredge thing? There's many possible answers. Proximity in lore (keep in mind that lore wise the game maps should be much much larger and there is a full lake and bay separating the Soundless from risen still) and Anet not wanting to spoil the reason of the sylvari immunity are likely the reasons. I also wouldn't say zhaitan wanted to corrupt everything. After all, his corruption focused on the dead largely ignoring the living. And there are the lacking of risen centaur, dredge, largos, and skritt despite risen having conquered or being right next to those races homes or bases. Another possible explanation is the fact that Soundlessness doesn't completely cut off the Dream.
    • That I'd chalk up to ArenaNet being heavily inconsistent in their lore at points. He shows up in Festival of the Four Winds talking about sharing experiences with the Dream but suddenly come Ep 1 and 5 he was Soundless the whole time? Then there is also how Soundless still are connected just very minutely.
    • Half of Zhaitan's strength is about defeating your enemy morale psychologically, it would make sense to not recruit Skritt since don't care too much for their similar, same for Dredge and both often use advanced tools (firearms/bombs/tools) while simple Risen use mostly their physical capabilities which makes more primitive but more socially involved races like Hylekk or Quaggans a threatening risen for their similar. Centaurs are too far inland, actual Largos and Tengus we meet can be counted together possibly on one hand.. while with Sylvari being heavily involved in the Pact the possibility was quite high.
    • Shouldn't have Soundless then been MORE involved (like chain of command) during HoT story or just throughout the maps in the Pact? Since they're immune to brainwashing and it would be quite obvious if they were to be actually corrupted.
      Diarmid's lore shows that Sylvari being connected to the Dream (I assume so since she wasn't mentioned being Soundless in the least) doesn't stop Mordremoth from corrupting them, at very least not after death. Similar thing to Faolain.
      This makes refuse Pale Tree's protection to become Soundless against Mordremoth actually sound great on paper. You don't really expose yourself to be weaker than any other race anyway.
  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the issue with becoming Soundless is that while you're trying to block out any messages from the Dream, you're still connected to it. Thus giving you all of the vulnerability and none of the protection.

    Personally, I think the most likely explanation for it all is that at some point the Pale Tree, and through her the sylvari, was given protection, through Forgotten magic or some other avenue, from conventional dragon corruption, while Mordremoth is simply using mind control. An entity that is immune to conventional dragon corruption can still choose (or be coerced) to serve a dragon through other means.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shirou.4862 said:

    • Half of Zhaitan's strength is about defeating your enemy morale psychologically, it would make sense to not recruit Skritt since don't care too much for their similar, same for Dredge and both often use advanced tools (firearms/bombs/tools) while simple Risen use mostly their physical capabilities which makes more primitive but more socially involved races like Hylekk or Quaggans a threatening risen for their similar. Centaurs are too far inland, actual Largos and Tengus we meet can be counted together possibly on one hand.. while with Sylvari being heavily involved in the Pact the possibility was quite high.
    • Shouldn't have Soundless then been MORE involved (like chain of command) during HoT story or just throughout the maps in the Pact? Since they're immune to brainwashing and it would be quite obvious if they were to be actually corrupted.
      Diarmid's lore shows that Sylvari being connected to the Dream (I assume so since she wasn't mentioned being Soundless in the least) doesn't stop Mordremoth from corrupting them, at very least not after death. Similar thing to Faolain.
      This makes refuse Pale Tree's protection to become Soundless against Mordremoth actually sound great on paper. You don't really expose yourself to be weaker than any other race anyway.

    Actually, we see quite a few tengu in the core game, but very few with names. And as far as the storyline goes, only Izu is actually important outside of map completion. There are two clusters of tengu in Caledon Forest, there's a tengu north of the Domain of Winds fighting against Destroyer minions, there's a rather large camp of tengu in southern Kessex Hills, and there's the group of tengu on the western end of Lion's Arch. I don't know about you, but I don't have that many digits on all of my extremities.

    As for the Soundless, it was made pretty clear in Season 2, or at least the prevalent theory was, that the Soundless were the most susceptible to Mordremoth's control, while the Dream was what protected regular sylvari from being affected. However, entering into the jungle, where Mordremoth's strength is stronger, the protection of the Dream alone is not enough to protect sylvari, and it's only those strong of will who are able to resist Mordremoth. What little we see of the Nightmare Court indicates that the Nightmare, despite all appearances, is not Mordremoth's voice, or at least, if it is, their will is enough to fight off the dragon. I'm still of the theory that the reason sylvari were never converted as Risen, or any other dragon minion, is because they are already dragon minions. Now, we don't have a lot of different races for Branded or Icebrood (only norn, quaggan and kodan of the sentient races for Icebrood, and primarily human and charr for the Branded), but presumably the other races could be converted to those minions but not sylvari.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sylvari were not immune to just becoming risen, but branded as well - as far as explicit examples have gone. Presumably, they are immune to all dragon corruption (yes, even Mordremoth's - I'll explain why).

    Firstly, it's never said the Pale Tree was purified, but it is heavily implied and, quite honestly, the only way she could be "from the dragon" and also not enslaved to its will.

    The Pale Tree, is not a slave the will of a Dragon, for the same reasons why Glint was not a slave, they were both Heralds to their Respective Dragons. As such, Sylvari are not immune to dragon corruption, they are dragon minions (directly stated in Living Story Season 2), but to be more exact they are the creation of a dragon herald, not the dragon itself.

    This is why, because like Glint, the Pale Tree turned against her master, so too could her direct creations, in the sense that they have the ability, not necessarily the capacity. This is why, like Mordremoth, the Pale Tree would have been very hard to kill in the physical sense, as her roots and vines made an entire city (Where her Dragon master spanned near across a continent), but, she has a physical sylvari form in the Dream, where she, like her master, was most vulnerable.

    How this effects Path of Fire, no idea.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    But, as I said, there is no corruption involved at all. Modrem are not corrupted Sylvari in the same sense that a Branded Charr or a Son of Svanir.

    Of course the characters in the world would superficially see it as their former Sylvari friends are becoming corrupted and would refer to the process as such. Especially members of the Pact who have seen it happen with the other dragons. But that doesn't make it so.

    The Sylvari as we know them are the "corrupted" ones; the Modrem ones are the true nature of the Sylvari as intended by their creator. A Sylvari turning Modrem is, ironically, kinda the opposite of how dragons usually corrupt things.

    Sylvari, are not corrupted, neither are Modrem, just in the same way neither are destroyers, they are the creations of the Dragon, where Branded and Icebrood, are corrupted existing creatures. The Modrem were created directly by Modremoth, where the Sylvari were created by the Pale Tree.

    That is why those Sylvari that accepted Modremoth's call fought shoulder to shoulder side by side with the Modrem, they are all the same. What makes Sylvari special, is Pale Tree turning against her Master , and giving them free will through the Dream, to chose between serving Modremoth or Fighting Against him.

    This is also why Modremoth needed to break their minds, not their bodies, their bodies were already his, hence why he could merge Trahearne body to his own form, while still trying to break his mind.

  • @Shirou.4862 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Why isn't risen centaurs or dredge thing? There's many possible answers. Proximity in lore (keep in mind that lore wise the game maps should be much much larger and there is a full lake and bay separating the Soundless from risen still) and Anet not wanting to spoil the reason of the sylvari immunity are likely the reasons. I also wouldn't say zhaitan wanted to corrupt everything. After all, his corruption focused on the dead largely ignoring the living. And there are the lacking of risen centaur, dredge, largos, and skritt despite risen having conquered or being right next to those races homes or bases. Another possible explanation is the fact that Soundlessness doesn't completely cut off the Dream.
    • That I'd chalk up to ArenaNet being heavily inconsistent in their lore at points. He shows up in Festival of the Four Winds talking about sharing experiences with the Dream but suddenly come Ep 1 and 5 he was Soundless the whole time? Then there is also how Soundless still are connected just very minutely.
    • Half of Zhaitan's strength is about defeating your enemy morale psychologically, it would make sense to not recruit Skritt since don't care too much for their similar, same for Dredge and both often use advanced tools (firearms/bombs/tools) while simple Risen use mostly their physical capabilities which makes more primitive but more socially involved races like Hylekk or Quaggans a threatening risen for their similar. Centaurs are too far inland, actual Largos and Tengus we meet can be counted together possibly on one hand.. while with Sylvari being heavily involved in the Pact the possibility was quite high.
    • Shouldn't have Soundless then been MORE involved (like chain of command) during HoT story or just throughout the maps in the Pact? Since they're immune to brainwashing and it would be quite obvious if they were to be actually corrupted.
      Diarmid's lore shows that Sylvari being connected to the Dream (I assume so since she wasn't mentioned being Soundless in the least) doesn't stop Mordremoth from corrupting them, at very least not after death. Similar thing to Faolain.
      This makes refuse Pale Tree's protection to become Soundless against Mordremoth actually sound great on paper. You don't really expose yourself to be weaker than any other race anyway.
    • While the risen do have a focus on psychological warfare I would not consider this any strength of Zhaitan's. Mordremoth uses similar tactics too, and so does Jormag. While the others have minimal communication with the races thus far. I cannot see "the race focuses too much on tools" to be reason for not corrupting, no where else does an ED care like that, esp. not Zhaitan. Centaurs are not too far inland as we see them fight risen and knowing about risen in the sylvari-Whispers PS.
    • Keep in mind that Soundless is a tiny community. There is only one village of Soundless, their numbers smaller than the Nightmare Court which by lore only make up 15% of the sylvari population. Furthermore, HoT had zero interaction with Central Tyria, it was all Pact Sylvari, and the Soundless focus on peaceful isolated lives which the Pact is not.
    • Sylvari appearances can change. Caithe, Canach, and Scarlet all show this. This happens when the sylvari undergo immense psychological trauma. This is what happens to the Mordrem Guard, their appearance changing them to become more armored skinned and generic appearance. The Mordrem Guard Commanders are a bit unique in that their minds are transferred to new bodies whenever killed. So their bodies are not their original ones. Faolain never died according to devs, and seems to have been literally grafted onto a vinetooth, which is actually done to plants - cutting two down the stem and then holding them together so they knit the wounds and join.

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  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sylvari were not immune to just becoming risen, but branded as well - as far as explicit examples have gone. Presumably, they are immune to all dragon corruption (yes, even Mordremoth's - I'll explain why).

    Firstly, it's never said the Pale Tree was purified, but it is heavily implied and, quite honestly, the only way she could be "from the dragon" and also not enslaved to its will.

    The Pale Tree, is not a slave the will of a Dragon, for the same reasons why Glint was not a slave, they were both Heralds to their Respective Dragons. As such, Sylvari are not immune to dragon corruption, they are dragon minions (directly stated in Living Story Season 2), but to be more exact they are the creation of a dragon herald, not the dragon itself.

    This is why, because like Glint, the Pale Tree turned against her master, so too could her direct creations, in the sense that they have the ability, not necessarily the capacity. This is why, like Mordremoth, the Pale Tree would have been very hard to kill in the physical sense, as her roots and vines made an entire city (Where her Dragon master spanned near across a continent), but, she has a physical sylvari form in the Dream, where she, like her master, was most vulnerable.

    How this effects Path of Fire, no idea.

    Glint was freed by the Forgotten. This is outright stated and proven in Arah explorable, Forgotten path. We even use that ritual to give a risen free will. Being a herald champion doesn't make one free willed. It just means it wakes up with the task of strengthening its master and mustering an army before it wakes.

    The Pale Tree is not hard to kill. And Mordremoth did not litetally have roots across Tyria. As Taimi explained in Season 2 Episode 2, the giant roots are corruption, not Mordremoth. As we learn later in HoT, Mordremoth had a physical body - the Mouth of Mordremoth - and can transfer his mind across his corruption should his body die. Like he did to Trahearne.

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  • @castlemanic.3198 said:
    As I recall, sylvari have been known to be immune to Zhaitan's corruption in vanilla gw2 and there were no sylvari risen to see. Then season 2 and heart of thorns revealed how the sylvari were actually minions of mordremoth and that they can, in turn, be corrupted by mordremoth because a piece of lore revealed sylvari and the Pale Tree were actually purified mordrem (forgive me for not remembering where that lore came from).

    Now, in season 3, we learned that Primordus and Jormag have absorbed some of the plant and death domains that were released upon the death of their relative elder dragons. Does that now mean that the threat of dragon corruption is a continuous threat for all sylvari, considering Mordremoth's domain has been absorbed by at least two elder dragons? Maybe Primordus won't corrupt sylvari since I recently read that it wants to destroy all life, but wouldn't other elder dragon's maybe see the ability to corrupt or convert another elder dragon's minions as a valuable asset in their race for magic consumption?

    I know this is tangential to anything Path of Fire related, and good ol' crystal face was farther out than possibly Jormag even was, making planty/deathy branded an unlikely possibility (or as rare as the abomination we fought in Bitterfrost Frontier) but it seems like a huge question in relation to one of the playable races that no one has really addressed (or that I'm aware of). If Mordy's domain wasn't absorbed by Kralk or Bubbles, then it seems like a non-pressing issue considering the two confirmed ED's who had that influence are taking a nap for the moment and the topic can, I guess, wait to be answered.

    Here is another bit of lore in the personal story we get an orb that replese the undead supposly its the deep sea dragons magic and in the story we are told that dragons cannont corrupt other dragons magic and your right the plants should be able to be controlled by the other two elder dragons but we put them to sleep so i dont think that plot will go anywhere seems pointless now to even have it so I feel anet dont have any clue what they are doing story wise

  • Tabasco.1743Tabasco.1743 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sylvari were not immune to just becoming risen, but branded as well - as far as explicit examples have gone. Presumably, they are immune to all dragon corruption (yes, even Mordremoth's - I'll explain why).

    Firstly, it's never said the Pale Tree was purified, but it is heavily implied and, quite honestly, the only way she could be "from the dragon" and also not enslaved to its will.

    Though never explicitly stated, it seems fairly clear via dialogue and HoT promotions that the immunity was caused not by the sylvari origins, but by their (and the Pale Tree's) connection to the Dream:

    Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
    PC: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

    The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    Ironically, the Dream is also how Mordremoth turns sylvari (Note: He does NOT corrupt them - at least not in the "dragon corruption" sense; what he does seems to be whispering thoughts designed to seem like the sylvari's own thoughts so those who ever had doubts or malicious thoughts would turn to Mordremoth, believing these to be their own rather than Mordremoth's). Basically, what Mordremoth does to sylvari during HoT is a more traditional brainwashing / hypnotizing ideal. Bombard an individual with thoughts, convincing them those thoughts are their own, so that they follow you willingly. Those who resisted realized the thoughts belonged to Mordremoth - or were so sure of themselves, like Occam, that they knew the thoughts to be not their own, even if they didn't know it was Mordremoth's.

    Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    This would mean, theoretically, that Soundless could be corrupted by other dragons - as could Malyck and the sylvari from his tree. But at the same time, unless they (re)gain a connection to the Dream (or gain a connection directly to Mordremoth like Scarlet Briar), they can be corrupted traditionally by Mordremoth.

    Now, as to OP's actual question of Primordus etc. taking control of sylvari: I would say no. For two reasons. Firstly, Primordus only took the domain of plants - not of mind - so it's unlikely Primordus has or had access to the Dream. While we've learned Kralkatorrik also took in some Mordy magic (and probably Zhaitan magic too given it was the closest Elder Dragon at the time of Zhaitan's death - I would disagree with Taimi about Mordremoth taking in Zhaitan's magic, though; the Blighting Trees were nothing unique enough to show the domain of death) it's still unlikely to have access to the Dream. The Dream was never part of Mordremoth - he was just as much a visitor as the Pale Tree - and we know this because besides the fact Malyck had no connection to it, non-sylvari did have a connection to it.

    Without access to the Dream, and thus access to hijacking the channels of the Dream sending Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, an individual would not be capable of turning sylvari via brainwashing whispers. However, if a sylvari lacks access to the Dream, then in theory they can be changed by any Elder Dragon.

    Do what nowwww..
    Okay I am roundly confused.

    Have there ever been references to the existence of the Dream anywhere in GuildWars lore before the Sylvari? I don't think Mordremoth was a visitor to the Dream. I was under the assumption that the Dream came into existence along with the Pale Tree, as a component of her being? The avatar of the tree said early on:
    "When you were of the Dream, before awakening, I was the vein through which you flowed into this ring of existence. We are all one, all connected, all of the same source."

    I think without realizing it the Sylvari personal story and relationship with the Pale Tree has revealed the depth of understanding Mordremoth had of the world and its skill at engineering systems for creating minions to do its will. I felt that the Dream was actually some form of delivery method for Mordremoth's voice to the minds of his unborn children: like some kind of organic, trans-dimensional software environment that is bound to the Trees that give birth to his minions. I'm thinking every blighting tree had a "Dream" where the minds of the creatures he created are initialized in his hatred and shackled to his voice before they have physical form.

    (correct me if I'm wrong about the history of the tree)

    A blighting tree's seed was found and planted while the dragon slept, and it grew into its own without the dragon's will. The software environment of the tree was initialized without a message, without Mordremoth's voice. It had only Ventari's tablet to reflect upon. Centuries of time elapsed, the tree gradually came to understand itself, and gave that component the name Dream of Dreams. After hundreds of years alone The Pale tree became quite adept at tending to this dream, but we don't really know what happened inside the Dream for all of that time, nor do we know what systems of the cosmos the Dreams are interacting with. (The trees are creating life, coalescing the filament of spirit into the souls of the Sylvari from, somewhere. But how?)

    I think this is also proof that even the Dragons don't truly know how to create life itself. That is why his voice was required. That is why the Dream is required: It is a system of translating the primal energies of life that he could not create, into the mote of the soul, which he could then control.

    ...Probably. Maybe?
    XD

  • The White Stag is part of the Dream but is not related to sylvari, mordrem, or Mordremoth. We also know not all sylvari, and by appearances Mordrem, are connected to the Dream either. This means Mordremoth is not the Dream's creator but is capable of accessing it.

    I don't know whee you got that source. Never heard of it. But the Pale Tree outright states she is not the originator of the Dream - merely a caretaker, and that it is something she found.

    We know that not every Blighting Tree has a Dream because Malyck outright tells us he doesn't. The PC, before knowing he was of another tree, merely assumed he did but forgot his time in the Dream.

    A dragon minion cannot simply 'grow without the dragon's will'. This is proven in Eye of the North where we have the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, and Svanir. And there is proof in Glint too. The Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree had to have been freed by some force. Most likely Forgotten as they are the only known force capable of such... Without a lot of trial and error of exotic magics like we did for Mawdrey.

    It is a common, unfounded, misconception that dragon minions can exist with free will naturally. They cannot. That is the purest definition of what a dragon minion is - a creature without free will. Even dragon champions are slaves without free will. They're just smarter which gives them multiple ways to think of how to follow the dragon's will.

    No amount of love and friendship can turn a Dragon minion unless you first give it free will - either by a powerful ritual like the Forgotten used on Glint, exotic magical combinations like we used on Mawdrey, or killing the Elder Dragon and waiting a few years before confronting the intelligent minions like the "unchained". The Elder Dragons may be asleep but their enslavement remains.

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  • Tabasco.1743Tabasco.1743 Member ✭✭✭

    Interesting insights here!

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The White Stag is part of the Dream but is not related to sylvari, mordrem, or Mordremoth. We also know not all sylvari, and by appearances Mordrem, are connected to the Dream either. This means Mordremoth is not the Dream's creator but is capable of accessing it.

    I don't know whee you got that source. Never heard of it. But the Pale Tree outright states she is not the originator of the Dream - merely a caretaker, and that it is something she found.

    The source of the Pale Tree's Dialog is in the game. That quote is one of the first things she says to a new Sylvari character, even now.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We know that not every Blighting Tree has a Dream because Malyck outright tells us he doesn't. The PC, before knowing he was of another tree, merely assumed he did but forgot his time in the Dream.

    I would disagree with these assumptions about Malyck. Not part of The Pale Tree's dream, we can be sure of. Not a part of ANY dream? Or was NEVER a part of ANY dream? There's not enough information.

    Upon the investigation of Malyck's condition, Secondborn Amaranda did say that He cannot sense the Pale Tree's Dream, and that we cannot sense his. She is making an allusion that Malyck is a part of a dream she cannot percieve, not that Malyck is a part of no dream.
    When asked if he felt a connection with the player character he says "No, Nothing..." but then contradicts himself immediately saying that he feels "...a great distance, and loss." That could be evidence that his mind supports a connection that could have been suspended or otherwise damaged. He could just be wrong about not having a connection to a dream, or perhaps he's an anomaly, or afflicted by an unknown type of injury.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A dragon minion cannot simply 'grow without the dragon's will'. This is proven in Eye of the North where we have the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, and Svanir. And there is proof in Glint too. The Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree had to have been freed by some force. Most likely Forgotten as they are the only known force capable of such... Without a lot of trial and error of exotic magics like we did for Mawdrey.

    Well... "maybe"? I don't remember hearing about a mystery force freeing the young Pale Tree from Mordremoth. You may be inventing narrative here, but if true that would explain some things.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It is a common, unfounded, misconception that dragon minions can exist with free will naturally. They cannot. That is the purest definition of what a dragon minion is - a creature without free will. Even dragon champions are slaves without free will. They're just smarter which gives them multiple ways to think of how to follow the dragon's will.

    No amount of love and friendship can turn a Dragon minion unless you first give it free will - either by a powerful ritual like the Forgotten used on Glint, exotic magical combinations like we used on Mawdrey, or killing the Elder Dragon and waiting a few years before confronting the intelligent minions like the "unchained". The Elder Dragons may be asleep but their enslavement remains.

    I wasn't referring to freeing a dragon minion while the dragon sleeps, I'm referring to dragon minions that are created while the dragon is asleep. Just to be clear, I include all lifeforms designed by the dragons as dragon minions, whether they have control of them or not. (aka the Sylvari, and to an extent the seed of the Pale Tree, which also germinated while Mordremoth slept.)

    ...I think. lol ;)

  • @Tabasco.1743 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We know that not every Blighting Tree has a Dream because Malyck outright tells us he doesn't. The PC, before knowing he was of another tree, merely assumed he did but forgot his time in the Dream.

    I would disagree with these assumptions about Malyck. Not part of The Pale Tree's dream, we can be sure of. Not a part of ANY dream? Or was NEVER a part of ANY dream? There's not enough information.

    Upon the investigation of Malyck's condition, Secondborn Amaranda did say that He cannot sense the Pale Tree's Dream, and that we cannot sense his. She is making an allusion that Malyck is a part of a dream she cannot percieve, not that Malyck is a part of no dream.
    When asked if he felt a connection with the player character he says "No, Nothing..." but then contradicts himself immediately saying that he feels "...a great distance, and loss." That could be evidence that his mind supports a connection that could have been suspended or otherwise damaged. He could just be wrong about not having a connection to a dream, or perhaps he's an anomaly, or afflicted by an unknown type of injury.

    I'd agree. It's also worth noting that Malyck's pod was disconnected from his Tree and carried a great distance before he awakened. That leaves his overall condition as the result of two separate,and so far, unique circumstances, which makes it difficult to argue that he's a typical representation of either one.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    A dragon minion cannot simply 'grow without the dragon's will'. This is proven in Eye of the North where we have the Great Destroyer, Drakkar, and Svanir. And there is proof in Glint too. The Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree had to have been freed by some force. Most likely Forgotten as they are the only known force capable of such... Without a lot of trial and error of exotic magics like we did for Mawdrey.

    Well... "maybe"? I don't remember hearing about a mystery force freeing the young Pale Tree from Mordremoth. You may be inventing narrative here, but if true that would explain some things.

    It's not a narrative that's been explicitly laid out by the game, true, but Konig's observation is consistent with what we've seen. More on that below.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It is a common, unfounded, misconception that dragon minions can exist with free will naturally. They cannot. That is the purest definition of what a dragon minion is - a creature without free will. Even dragon champions are slaves without free will. They're just smarter which gives them multiple ways to think of how to follow the dragon's will.

    No amount of love and friendship can turn a Dragon minion unless you first give it free will - either by a powerful ritual like the Forgotten used on Glint, exotic magical combinations like we used on Mawdrey, or killing the Elder Dragon and waiting a few years before confronting the intelligent minions like the "unchained". The Elder Dragons may be asleep but their enslavement remains.

    I wasn't referring to freeing a dragon minion while the dragon sleeps, I'm referring to dragon minions that are created while the dragon is asleep. Just to be clear, I include all lifeforms designed by the dragons as dragon minions, whether they have control of them or not. (aka the Sylvari, and to an extent the seed of the Pale Tree, which also germinated while Mordremoth slept.)

    ...I think. lol ;)

    In EotN, we see minions created while their dragon is asleep, chiefly Svanir and all of the destroyers we fight in the expansion. All of them displayed the typical omnicidal aggression we associate with GW2 dragon minions. None of them were friendly, peaceable, or otherwise turned out like the sylvari.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sylvari were not immune to just becoming risen, but branded as well - as far as explicit examples have gone. Presumably, they are immune to all dragon corruption (yes, even Mordremoth's - I'll explain why).

    Firstly, it's never said the Pale Tree was purified, but it is heavily implied and, quite honestly, the only way she could be "from the dragon" and also not enslaved to its will.

    The Pale Tree, is not a slave the will of a Dragon, for the same reasons why Glint was not a slave, they were both Heralds to their Respective Dragons. As such, Sylvari are not immune to dragon corruption, they are dragon minions (directly stated in Living Story Season 2), but to be more exact they are the creation of a dragon herald, not the dragon itself.

    This is why, because like Glint, the Pale Tree turned against her master, so too could her direct creations, in the sense that they have the ability, not necessarily the capacity. This is why, like Mordremoth, the Pale Tree would have been very hard to kill in the physical sense, as her roots and vines made an entire city (Where her Dragon master spanned near across a continent), but, she has a physical sylvari form in the Dream, where she, like her master, was most vulnerable.

    How this effects Path of Fire, no idea.

    Glint was freed by the Forgotten. This is outright stated and proven in Arah explorable, Forgotten path. We even use that ritual to give a risen free will. Being a herald champion doesn't make one free willed. It just means it wakes up with the task of strengthening its master and mustering an army before it wakes.

    The Pale Tree is not hard to kill. And Mordremoth did not litetally have roots across Tyria. As Taimi explained in Season 2 Episode 2, the giant roots are corruption, not Mordremoth. As we learn later in HoT, Mordremoth had a physical body - the Mouth of Mordremoth - and can transfer his mind across his corruption should his body die. Like he did to Trahearne.

    Umm yah the Pale Tree is hard to kill, she is a living city... and Ummm.. and Taimi explained that there were 2 kinds of vines, the massive ones under ground that the players would never see, that followed the Ley Lines all the way to the Black Citadel, and the roots that broke the surface. The surface roots were just corruption, the vines deep in the earth were the dragon itself, which is why the dragon itself said My roots are too deep for you to kill me.

  • @Tabasco.1743 said:
    I would disagree with these assumptions about Malyck. Not part of The Pale Tree's dream, we can be sure of. Not a part of ANY dream? Or was NEVER a part of ANY dream? There's not enough information.

    Upon the investigation of Malyck's condition, Secondborn Amaranda did say that He cannot sense the Pale Tree's Dream, and that we cannot sense his. She is making an allusion that Malyck is a part of a dream she cannot percieve, not that Malyck is a part of no dream.
    When asked if he felt a connection with the player character he says "No, Nothing..." but then contradicts himself immediately saying that he feels "...a great distance, and loss." That could be evidence that his mind supports a connection that could have been suspended or otherwise damaged. He could just be wrong about not having a connection to a dream, or perhaps he's an anomaly, or afflicted by an unknown type of injury.

    Mordremoth rather proves that there is only one Dream. So... Yes, any Dream.

    As to that line, that doesn't necessarily mean a connection to the Dream - the Dream isn't the same kind of hive mind that Elder Dragons have with their minions, so that could be what Malyck refers to unwittingly.

    @Tabasco.1743 said:
    Well... "maybe"? I don't remember hearing about a mystery force freeing the young Pale Tree from Mordremoth. You may be inventing narrative here, but if true that would explain some things.

    You're right, we don't hear about what caused the Pale Tree's freedom. But we are explicitly told throughout Orr and the Personal Story, and Sea of Sorrows, that merely trying to communicate with dragon minions simply doesn't work. PoF further cemented this in Act 2 about Glint's history.

    We know that the Pale Tree was freed because there's no other way for her to not been born a slave to Mordremoth. We don't know what freed the Pale Tree, but it wasn't Ventari. We know this because Ventari had nothing unique about him in regards to magic, and we know that the freedom happened to more than one seed because Malcyk is also freed.

    It's not inventing narrative. It's logical deduction.

    @Tabasco.1743 said:
    I wasn't referring to freeing a dragon minion while the dragon sleeps, I'm referring to dragon minions that are created while the dragon is asleep. Just to be clear, I include all lifeforms designed by the dragons as dragon minions, whether they have control of them or not. (aka the Sylvari, and to an extent the seed of the Pale Tree, which also germinated while Mordremoth slept.)

    ...I think. lol ;)

    Svanir and the Eye of the North destroyers were all "created while the dragon is asleep" (though "corrupted" is more accurate for both cases). They were very much enthralled to their respective dragons.

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Umm yah the Pale Tree is hard to kill, she is a living city... and Ummm.. and Taimi explained that there were 2 kinds of vines, the massive ones under ground that the players would never see, that followed the Ley Lines all the way to the Black Citadel, and the roots that broke the surface. The surface roots were just corruption, the vines deep in the earth were the dragon itself, which is why the dragon itself said My roots are too deep for you to kill me.

    She's not "hard to kill" in the same manner as Mordremoth. Mordremoth wasn't hard to kill because he had buried roots. Roots can quite easily be upended, or burned while still in the ground. The Pale Tree would only be "hard to kill" because she's a giant tree.

    As to Taimi's explanation - firstly, take note of her wording:

    PC: So how are the waypoints affected?
    Taimi: I'm 98.5 percent sure I can answer correctly. It's these vines. They're attracted to the magical resonance of the waypoints.
    PC: The vines? So, you mean Mordremoth's corruption.
    Taimi: Not exactly. It's my belief that these vines we're seeing are coming directly from the dragon, spreading underground across Tyria. It's not just corruption. It's him.
    PC: And the free-moving ones aboveground?
    Taimi: As far as I can tell, they're corrupted. And spreading. But our primary concern is the waypoint situation. If that gets worse, we could be in serious trouble.

    She theorizes that's the case. Secondly, you're actually misunderstanding what she was saying. The key phrase is in her second line there: "It's not just corruption. It's him." Meaning that it was both Mordremoth and Mordremoth's corruption. Basically, corruption grown from and directly controlled by Mordremoth.

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